Not sure if this belongs in this section, so if it does not please move it...

Before you read this i will say yet again this is not a blanket statement, Although it is directed at some on the blabber board it is not directed at the blabber board, i love this forum and always will remain a part of it, but as you may have noticed by now not like i used to, anways read this and understand it before commenting, open minds please...

I have come to a point after weeks and weeks of thinking on the current state of the christian underground. I wish to no longer be a part of it in the way i was before. There is far too much backstabbing. Lying and two faced people. Plus the near constant misuse of Gods word in the christian underground is disturbing. I have noticed this time and time again on a few forums i wont mention here. This is not a blanket statement for those out there whom like to twist the truth and misrepresent other peoples thoughts. There are some of you out there who are very strong in christ and still a part of the underground. This is not directed at the whole underground or any one in particular. But if you feel it is directed at you then maybe it is. I have met my limit. I have watched several of my friends who were strong in christ turn their backs on him. I have watched these same individuals come up with every excuse imaginable to explain why. I have decided i will serve God as part of the mass body of christ and not as part of a group of individuals who seperate themselves from that body because as children of God we are all the body of christ and as followers of christ it is wrong for us to seperate scenes or whatever you want to call them and look at others with distaste or malice because they are not like you or me. i used to be guilty of this. i hated scene kids. and emo kids. but thats wrong and i see that now. they need God just as much as me. and though i dont agree with the way they dress or act i will no longer show them hatred. i will no longer be a part of the seperation of Gods people. Underground this. Mainstream that. We should all join together and spread Gods word. Our image or what have you means nothing. Or it shouldnt anyways. Everyone is so bent on image now. It really is sad. I hate to say it but the christian underground is in a sad state. and i know it sounds like im preaching but i dont care. Alot of the people in the christian underground find anyway they can to skirt around what the bible says. They find anyway they can to be as close to the secular scene while still being part of the christian scene and if i were a lesser person i could put i list of at least a 30 i know personally who do this. but i wont. It is not the way we are meant to be. The bible says we are supposed to stand out. not be just like the secular world. we are supposed to look and act different from them while still witnessing Gods word to them. We are supposed to shout out Gods word. Not meekly whisper it as to not embarass ourselves or so we dont loose our precious "Street cred". The world is supposed to look at us and know we are of God. And sadly you cant do that with a lot of the christian underground. And i wont even get into how many times ive had people from the christian underground break their word to me or put things off for long periods of time music wise. etc. Countless times and the sad thing is i have had 0 people from the secular scene do any of the above. You will find more liars and fake people in the christian underground than almost anywhere else. But now i guess im just preaching so i shall stop. I dont have a soap box. I just think things need to change. I am on record now as saying i am no longer part of the christian underground as a whole. I still support certain areas such as BMR. And a few other people and or bands but that is it. the bands or people i do still suport will know it. the ones i no longer support wont miss me so no harm no foul. I am done. You can keep your scene. It means nothing to me anymore. well i take that back. the secular part of the underground that i have been a part of my whole life will always have a place in my heart til the day i die but i had to give it up. the christian part of the underground i have been a part of for the last 3 or 4 years i used too respect a lot. but in the last year it has gotten further and further from what i at least thought it stood for. but i will say that even after all of this there is still 10 percent of the christian underground i will remain a part of from the side lines. i will still support BMR and the drone forum. Elans projects. Siltwater. and a few others i wont mention at this time. Farewell and thanks for the memories to the others ...God bless and you all have my prayers. And my hope that one day you all find your path...

Once again, Not a blanket statement, And this is also just my opinion...

And as i said i was guilty of a lot of this up until a couple months ago, But no more...

Good thoughts.

Thank you

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Well Dave, I'd like to see you keep posting here.

I found what you typed as insightful. ....and a few things "round" things you said found some "round" holes to fit in, in my brain.

However, it sounds like you're leaving because of (what should be) other people's stuff. I think you should just let their stuff be theirs - it's really no one else's business anyway.

If I ever leave, it won't because of someone else doing/not doing something, I'll guaran-damn-tee that.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Bad form / poor choice of words there, chief.
If you're trying to understand or convince him otherwise, you've just failed by mocking him.

...but you probably don't care - as long as your ego keeps you warm at night.

i did not say that in any way, im saying i no longer wish to be a part of the twisting of gods word and the seperation of scenes, as christians we are all supposed to band together and spread the word, not seperate in little factions, and as i also said i was guilty of all of the above before so im not being hypocritical since i no longer do any of the above, i have since realized my errors and tried to fix them, but as i said the above is not directed at any one person or group, its directed at the ones who do what i said above and no i dont think i am better than anyone who does whats posted above, i do think that it is a sin to do the above so i am no longer a part of it, as for who is wrong or right thats a childish stupid argument which i refuse to take part in, those who are wrong will know it when they face god...i simply posted the above to explain why im not around much anymore, and i believe i am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else on this board

and i know tom, it just pains me to see it, the closer i get to god the more i realize i was wrong when i acted the way i used to, as for leaving this board nah, although i wont post as much i wont ever leave either, been here since the start and though i dont agree with everything posted here i agree with enough to stay

I'm glad to hear you'll still post!

yeah, what i meant by this is goodbye is how i used to support the underground, i wont be doing that anymore, i will support bands i truly love, but not all of them just for the sake of like i used to, i will still keep the drone forum around which is my big contribution for what it is to the underground, but other than that my music will be my only contribution anymore, i think being the first christian drone band in existence has cemented my stake in the underground enough to where i dont have to be part of it anymore, i will always support this board and bmr and a handful of other bands but never again will i just blindly support any and every little thing in the underground, more or less because i just dont agree with it all anymore, ive seen so many people in the last year turn away from god, alot of them part of this board, and it pains me, i know its none of my buisness and by no means am i casting judgment but the time is near brother, the end time is here and people are running out of time...try and argue the point all you all want but the end times are here, and now...

who wants cookies?

Kamerad Ash wrote:

who wants cookies?

OOH!! I do! I want cookies!!!!

*waves frantically*

ASH!! Hey! OVER HERE!!!

*continues waving*

YAY! Cookies! ^_^

Kamerad Ash wrote:

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Way to go, you are a natural at showing God's love toward a man clearly who has his fair share of hard times. Nice job, Ash, nice job.

well, let's hope you can survive that one post of mine. Dave don't seem to be offended. I was just responding to his long OP.

How about cupcakes?

..

Might I add Dave, 100% guilty. But just one thing...

Is it really all that different elsewhere? We have a standard, unlike the secular scene, and when there are standards involved, they will, without fail, be fallen short of.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

well, let's hope you can survive that one post of mine. Dave don't seem to be offended. I was just responding to his long OP.

How about cupcakes?

..

CCUUUUUPPPPPP CCCCAAAAAAAAKKKKKEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!

thanks tom and olias for.lol but we all know ash is the world wide knower of all and his opinions shall not be debated. and ash no i was not offended. the baked goods comments made me laugh. and i should have reworded alot of what i posted. i was just mad. and we all know posting anything while mad is a bad idea. olias i will answer your question later today after i get home. right now im on my phone and dont feel lke typing all of that on here. but for what its worth none of the people who have replied to this post are anyone i was speaking of anyways.

NapalmDave))) wrote:

lol but we all know ash is the word wide knower of all and his opinions shall not be debated.

I not only pray to Jesus, but pray to Ash as well.
This is what Ash would want me to do.

This is what my ex wife had to say after reading all of the above, and this was aimed more at me than anyone else,lol:

our standard is not to be Christ, but to be like Him we will never be perfect...whenever we see that we have not met a standard it is a revelation in to our own heart for us to see our short comings & pray for them...we will always fall short with out fail - true if we are striving to meet them with our own strength - false if we humble ourselves & let God be our strength & our help bc God never fails....He cannot fail because he is perfect, he is without corruption, he is all knowing, he is God....We will have trials in our life & we will have times when we see that there is something in our heart that just doesnt belong to a christian, but those times are given to us not so that we can see that we have failed, but to see how great God is & to give more of ourselves to him...in our weakness he is made strong
...................................................................................................

And now to answer your question myself olias ok, i agree and disagree, yes we have different standards, and yes i know we all fail at one time or another, but us as christians with these standards are expected to act a little better than what i have personally seen, and i am again not speaking of anyone in particular or judging, as my ex wife was saying whenever we see that we have not met a standard its a revelation that god has given us into our own heart so that we can pray for our short comings to try and walk more in the ways of christ, but im not seeing that, im seeing people just give up and throw in the towel, more and more, personal friends, people you all know, again i wont mention names other than 2, davis and joey, and the only reason i mention them is because i am friends with both and i mean no spite in mentioning them and i pray both find their way back to christ, they both made a choice, to turn away from god, both for very personal reasons, none of my buisness other than what they made public on this board, but my point is these 2 were very strong in christ before, and then they turn away, and its not just them, i keep seeing it over and over again, throughout the whole scene, i see bands who refuse to say they are christian just because it could damage their fan base, i see bands who say they are christian touring with bands who are anti god, i see christian bands with deicide and morbid angel in their top friends, i fail to see where it is ok to listen to someone scream open the door jehovah you whore or disembowled on the alter jesus christ, entrials in the pentegram circle etc etc, how in the hell is it ok to hang around that or listen to it, let me tell you i was obsessed with deicide from early 92 up til 2005, absolutely obsessed, i hated god with and obscene passion, and deicide fueled that, i dont care how strong you are in christ you cannot listen to that band and not be affected by it, or morbid angel for that matter, but thats for another time and another argument, the point is i keep seeing christians who are supposed to represent god going out and saying bands like burzum and emperor are their inspiration and i used to be guilty of this as well, but then i realized how the hell can you listen to xasthur, nortt or funeral mist and be godly, i cannot accept that, no matter how it is presented to me, im speaking from expirence, i was part of the secular scene for many years, i got into norwegian black metal in 91, death metal in 93, before some of you were even born, ive been there and done that, drug addiction, satanism, being a skinhead, anything you can imagine, i was an evil person, and sadly still have all the ink on my skin to prove it, so im not just blowing smoke and speaking on stuff i know nothing of, but now im getting off the point, i look at this this way, ive only been part of the christian scene for 4 years now, so to alot of you i might seem like an outsider, but i also run the only christian drone forum in existence which i spend countless hours, days, weeks, months updating and promoting any and every christian drone and ambient band there is, and doom bands, i support the scene, i do whatever i can to promote any and all christian music, and even some secular just because im nice, this isnt ego talking, i do it for the scene, i do it because i believe in the scene, and now im starting to wonder why, its not even the same scene anymore, i used to take pride in wtta being the first christian drone band in existence, i used to take pride in being part of a scene that was out there every day preaching the word, not affraid of who said what or who got offended, and because of that wtta was just as accepted in the secular scene as it is in the christian scene, because they all knew and still know im the real deal, im not doing this for show, im doing it because i believe it is the path god has for me, to minister to the depths of the underground, but again im getting off point, all of this has started to change now, i no longer feel like thats what i am meant to do, i feel like it was a stepping stone for me, i did it, i left my mark in the christian underground, And no matter how small of a mark it may be its there forever, and now i think its time to move on, i just cant be a part of what i am seeing anymore, over the last year and i am sure alot of you will agree it all seems to be changing, it doesnt seem to be about the word anymore, again this is just my opinion, and again im not speaking of the entire scene, just the parts im seeing, but it seems like money, street cred and other unimportant stuff are whats important now, not many are out there witnessing, not many are out there after a show or in their lyrics witnessing, let me tell you this, if wtta ever got to do a show with sunn o))) (yes i know a pipe dream since wtta sucks arse) you better believe i would be witnessing to the crowd after i was done, and even if it meant never getting to play with them again, i would make sure gods word was witnessed, i dont know if this answered your question olias but hopefully it did, no joke i was offered by greg anderson to have a wtta track, the sunn tribute off the upcoming album to be on a southern lord comp, and he said all i had to do was not call wtta a christian band in any of their advertisments, i can post the original messages back forth between me and greg, and i turned it down, wtta had a chance to be on a southern lord comp and i turned it down purely because i will not deny my god, and greg sent me back a messege saying he respected my stance and was very cordial, i also had a chance to work with mike from yob, also have all of the messeges between me and him saved, wtta had been working on a cover of catharsis for over a year, and mike was going to do the chorus on the track, we talked about this for 7 or 8 months, and then after the track was half way done, after months and months of promoting this mike found out wtta was christian, or so he said, after i know i told him 4 or 5 times, and he backed out, he said because i was not up front about wtta being christian, but again i have all the messeges saved sent from his myspace account saying he is full of crap, i also had a chance to work with ken from ox, who is the guitar player for sons of otis, we had a sick split planned out for months and months, was going to be on his recored label and everything, but again i was asked after months of work and time and advertisement to drop the christian label, or the split would not happen, i again said no and lost my third big shot at making wtta a bigger name, i have given up every shot wtta has ever had to witness gods word, how many bands out there do you know of who do that, not a lot, i know of a lot who would be ok with dropping the christian label just to get one of those shots, thats exactly what im talking about, why is god not more important than that shot?

Kamerad Ash wrote:

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Wow. You took pretty much every part of his post wrong.


Dave, I think all of us are guilty of misrepresenting God's word at times. I know I am. That's why I am not in the "unblack" scene like I used to be. I don't feel called to lead any type of ministry at this time. I felt that I was forcing these "Godly" lyrics and it felt like it wasn't genuine to me anymore. If I'm going to write it, I don't want to feel like I have to because of the band I'm in or the image of my band. I want God to speak through me.

I hope to still see ya around here.

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Wow. You took pretty much every part of his post wrong.


Dave, I think all of us are guilty of misrepresenting God's word at times. I know I am. That's why I am not in the "unblack" scene like I used to be. I don't feel called to lead any type of ministry at this time. I felt that I was forcing these "Godly" lyrics and it felt like it wasn't genuine to me anymore. If I'm going to write it, I don't want to feel like I have to because of the band I'm in or the image of my band. I want God to speak through me.

I hope to still see ya around here.

Has a post ever been more honest?! I Love you man, I still hope to see you around, I have supported your Earth, / Sunn O))) vision since day one bro and still do! Peace and Love be with you!

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

So basically you are too righteous for all the other fake Christians.. so you can't be apart of anything that they are apart of?

Wow. You took pretty much every part of his post wrong.

Yeah, but he offered cookies and cupcakes, so that's alright. ^_^
It's a good thing Ash isn't a liar and will provide them. I'm so excited!

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:

Dave, I think all of us are guilty of misrepresenting God's word at times. I know I am. That's why I am not in the "unblack" scene like I used to be. I don't feel called to lead any type of ministry at this time. I felt that I was forcing these "Godly" lyrics and it felt like it wasn't genuine to me anymore. If I'm going to write it, I don't want to feel like I have to because of the band I'm in or the image of my band. I want God to speak through me.

I hope to still see ya around here.

I agree. Gorlim, did you find my post about why Hguols will always be instrumental? ^_^

To me, I could care less if I'm part of a scene or not part of a scene. I just do me, and if I fit in somewhere or stick out like a sore thumb, oh well. I fit in better here than I do pretty much anywhere else online. Pretty much....

Point being, even those of us who are a little off, our intentions are good. (from what I can tell) Some Christians who are close-minded and do off-the-wall "harmful" crap, they're doing in regards to what they believe is to be right in God's eyes. I can't blame someone like that.

Dave, your style of writing is a sledgehammer of text

Anyways, I just hope you keep writing awesome music and I hope God blesses your path whereever you may tread.

Gorlim you will bro, and i dont by no means mean to sound like i am better than anyone, read my testimony,lol im far from anything perfect, if that's not your ministry then its not your ministry, there are different gifts given to different people and each one of equal importance to function as the body of Christ, I will not be judgemental to anyone, imperfections is a part of being human, i think a lot of what i said was either mis-worded or misunderstood, what i am doing is stepping out and being bold as i feel God has called me to do, if God is for me then who can be against me, now is the time for us to draw close to God, to ask him to give us eyes that see and ears that hear so that we can find the true ministry of Jesus Christ, this is not about what i think or about what you think or about this religion or that religion but about the true undefiled word of God, the bible say to seek first the kingdom of heaven and to take up our cross and follow Him, that may mean different things to different people but to me my cross is to let go of all things that are important to me and focus on what is important to God, to step out and be seperate from this world, i will say what i feel God wants me to say, i will do what i feel God wants me to do and I will not care what man has to say because more than anything my heart belongs to God and I will do what is pleasing to Him, I am on here not judging, not calling anyone out but to ask anyone that is willing to open their eyes, to step out as i have stepped out to be the body of Christ, to break down the walls of seperation, not the seperation of this world but the seperation of God's children, how can a body survive with its members fighting against each other? no hesitations, no second thoughts, just boldness and faith in Christ, i will no longer wait, today is the day the Lord has made and i will rejoice in it and be glad, God bless and I hope that this touches your heart