mystery wrote:

why would anyone study apologetics?
man


im studying the christian cabala.

i have also been getting into christian mysticism, because dogma is just not reality.
http://christianmystics.com/?page_id=57

besides this, i have been reading the gnostic gospels.

John Crowder is a mystic. He's way off his rocker. This movement is an excellent place for demonic activity to fester. I say this because many of the meetings attended by mystics a la Crowder, Dunn, Patricia King, Todd Bentley are no different from what happens in many Eastern occultic sects. How is doctrine not reality? I assume that you categorize this as dogma, but maybe I am mistaken. There is an erroneous tendency to assume that "believing" something is not as good as "feeling" something. A lot of movements that delve deeply into subjective feelings without any biblical ground or teaching seem more like New Age / Eastern Mysticism than anything else. The Word-Faith movement also has this problem. The issue here is not that Orthodox Christian teaching is wrong, so we must go to "feeling" and "personal experience." Historical Christianity has survived great attacks time and again, and will continue to do so. The reason why these movements attack Orthodoxy is because they dislike the Truth, suppress it, hate what Jesus Christ taught, try to make it into a subjective ambivalent type pseudo-doctrine palatable to anyone's shifting emotion, and destroy any notion of objective reality. The reliance on extra-biblical information that often contradicts sound doctrine, I would classify as apostasy much more than heresy; and as always, apostasy is very objectionable. I am not attacking you as a person, mystic, nor do I plan to further derail the thread or debate. I just needed to clear this up so that you and others will not be misguided by the teachings of the link which I obviously disagree with. I feel it is my responsibility to warn you and others that this is a dangerous thing. Scripture was, is, and will always be sufficient as is God's grace.

this is what the debate thread would be for sir.


but i dont want you scaring people off with this sort of fear mongering. a state of gnosis, personal experience of the divine, its the ONLY way to actually know anything about God or what God wants. there is no objective reality. since you are saying there is, that is your subjective reality. it is quite a pretension to say otherwise.

mystery wrote:

yea, id be game. provided you lot wouldnt go torquemada on me.

hey bro, Davis and I are not trying to sound harsh in order to prove you wrong. Neither are we trying to do it just for the sake of feeling right. We just genuinely feel that there are some vast differences between Christian Mysticism and what Jesus plainly taught. There is no reason for us to condemn you nor is there sufficient ground. It's not our place. What we feel is our place is to dialogue with you on some of the teachings that we, and many others, find highly objectionable. There are too many people who attack Historical Christianity because they do not want to submit to God's Lordship. We do not want you to be misguided. And just so you know, we believe Torquemada was a tyrant, and clearly not a disciple of Jesus.

This thread was created to keep the discussion from starting somewhere it shouldn't. Discuss.

The above posts are from the thread where this debate started. Continue

mystcism and gnosticism are completely different.

a mystic would be like st.john of the cross, who was a completely orthodox christian in just about everyway, and followed the bible down to the last letter. he also however, meditated. meditation is not heresy. christian mysticism is essentially christianity with meditation on God.

i assume when we speak of gnosticism, we speak of christian gnosticism, which also generally believes in literal exoteric christianity but they also read an extra level past the literal meaning of the bible. they seek to understand the intention of it as well, as so much in the bible is metaphorical. this does not mean it isnt literally true as well.

belief in the gnostic goepels could be considered heresy, although the christian bible is based on stories of this man jesus, and the gnostic gospels in an objective sense have just as much credibility as the ones included in the bible. unless of course one personally believes blindly in only one interpretation, purely on faith from exoteric sources.

Ok. In order to avoid shooting down straw men, it would be good if maybe (user: Mysticism) could provide for us a backdrop of his beliefs so that we do not misrepresent them. Maybe we can learn something in the process. Is this ok with you, M?

mystery wrote:

mystcism and gnosticism are completely different.

I know, the "and" seperates two seperate nouns in a sentence We are debating both ideas

FuneralOath wrote:

Ok. In order to avoid shooting down straw men, it would be good if maybe (user: Mysticism) could provide for us a backdrop of his beliefs so that we do not misrepresent them. Maybe we can learn something in the process. Is this ok with you, M?

And yes, that would be helpful to everyone.

it would be hard to discuss gnosticism, there are hundreds of forms of it, and they have little in common with eachother other than enlightenment. it predates christianity and is pretty clearly heresy to the orthodox for that reason.

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

mystery wrote:

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

Alright, if Gnosticism is too difficult to discuss, what are some of the general beliefs of Mysticism?

Kan-o-sushi wrote:

mystery wrote:

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

Alright, if Gnosticism is too difficult to discuss, what are some of the general beliefs of Mysticism?

their stance on normal chuch doctrines vary alot. this is generally not a topic that the idea of christian mysticism teaches about.

the core of christian mysticism is that there is extreme value in attempting to communicate directly with the divine. they usually do this by meditation, trace and concentration.

mystery wrote:

it would be hard to discuss gnosticism, there are hundreds of forms of it, and they have little in common with eachother other than enlightenment. it predates christianity and is pretty clearly heresy to the orthodox for that reason.

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

My first comment would be that just because something predates the spread of the Christian faith does not make it better, more valuable, or more true. Such would be a logical fallacy in the category of Irrelevant appeals, which would be appealing to antiquity. In other words, the appeal to antiquity fallacy states that because something is before something else, then it must be somehow better or more valid. Since Jesus is Lord, and Him and the Father are one (John 10:30), then we can say that absolutely nothing pre-dates Jesus "In the beginning was the Word." (John 1:1). I know that you did not explicity say that something that pre-dates Christianity is more veritable, but I was just laying this on the table. There have always been pagan religions, but True Christianity did not borrow from any of them.

In the interest of this debate, let us talk about Mysticism instead, maybe?

As for prayer, scripture clearly mentions how we should pray and to whom we should pray. We are to pray to God in the name of Jesus. Prayer is a form of worship. It is objective because we are worshipping Yahweh, the only God. In that prayer, we pray for the Will of God. Since His will is according to His character, God would never act in a way that contradicted his words in scripture. When we meditate, we are to meditate on God - his attributes clearly outlined in scripture: omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, sovereignty, majesty, beauty, wrath, love, hatred, holiness, righteousness, and so forth. The model prayer or (our father) is particularly helpful in this situation. Only God's children have the ability to pray for the Will of God because their hearts have been renewed and are receptive to His spirit. This is why eastern transcendental meditation and universalist prayers are objectionable to God - they are contrary to his nature, character, and commandments. I am not accusing you, mystery, of engaging in transcendental meditation, for I do not know your personal beliefs or practices. I just kinda wanted to clear some ground for discussion or debate.

just one question. What do you mean by "inquisition?"

FuneralOath wrote:

mystery wrote:

it would be hard to discuss gnosticism, there are hundreds of forms of it, and they have little in common with eachother other than enlightenment. it predates christianity and is pretty clearly heresy to the orthodox for that reason.

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

My first comment would be that just because something predates the spread of the Christian faith does not make it better, more valuable, or more true. Such would be a logical fallacy in the category of Irrelevant appeals, which would be appealing to antiquity. In other words, the appeal to antiquity fallacy states that because something is before something else, then it must be somehow better or more valid. Since Jesus is Lord, and Him and the Father are one (John 10:30), then we can say that absolutely nothing pre-dates Jesus "In the beginning was the Word." (John 1:1). I know that you did not explicity say that something that pre-dates Christianity is more veritable, but I was just laying this on the table. There have always been pagan religions, but True Christianity did not borrow from any of them.

In the interest of this debate, let us talk about Mysticism instead, maybe?

i was actually saying that the fact that it predates christianity means that it is by definition non-christian and thusly by definition heresy.

FuneralOath wrote:

just one question. What do you mean by "inquisition?"

by this i meant a personal persecution/questioning of my beliefs

1 John is a good thing to read.... basis for my wariness of mysticism and gnosticism.

This is from the commentary in my bible:

Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of God's becoming human. Because they believed that the physical body was intrinsically evil, they denied that a pure God could take on a body....
The apostle John debated in person with the Gnostics of his day, and he had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter( 1 John 4)....throughout the letter, especially in 4:2-3, the author lambastes those who deny Jesus came in the flesh.

To Gnositcs, all matter was evil. Only the spirit was pure, and the Gnostics sought to rise to higher, more spiritual plane. This teaching often produced a side effect: people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics. Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin. Thus, they could act anyway they wanted.

Aging John roared out against the twin dangers of Gnosticism: immoral living and doubts that Christ became man. Beliefs must be judged by actions they produce, and John stresses the theme of brotherly love. He primarily refutes errors by presenting a wholesome picture of the Christian life as it is supposed to be lived.

True fellowship is not a secret initiation into a New Age- type elite, but relationship with the Father through Christ. And that also entails responsibilities to others in God's family.



READ 1 John before answering:

Question: Gnosticism showed itself in several ways: the belief that matter was evil, a desire for "super- spirituality" a tendency toward loose morals. How can we counter those same trends among Christians?

therockismighty wrote:

1 John is a good thing to read.... basis for my wariness of mysticism and gnosticism.

This is from the commentary in my bible:

Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of God's becoming human. Because they believed that the physical body was intrinsically evil, they denied that a pure God could take on a body....
The apostle John debated in person with the Gnostics of his day, and he had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter( 1 John 4)....throughout the letter, especially in 4:2-3, the author lambastes those who deny Jesus came in the flesh.

To Gnositcs, all matter was evil. Only the spirit was pure, and the Gnostics sought to rise to higher, more spiritual plane. This teaching often produced a side effect: people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics. Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin. Thus, they could act anyway they wanted.

Aging John roared out against the twin dangers of Gnosticism: immoral living and doubts that Christ became man. Beliefs must be judged by actions they produce, and John stresses the theme of brotherly love. He primarily refutes errors by presenting a wholesome picture of the Christian life as it is supposed to be lived.

True fellowship is not a secret initiation into a New Age- type elite, but relationship with the Father through Christ. And that also entails responsibilities to others in God's family.



READ 1 John before answering:

Question: Gnosticism showed itself in several ways: the belief that matter was evil, a desire for "super- spirituality" a tendency toward loose morals. How can we counter those same trends among Christians?

you do not seem truly understand the tenets of gnosticism. moral living is very important in gnosticism as it is the pathway to gnosis.

mystery wrote:

Kan-o-sushi wrote:

mystery wrote:

personally, i would only back mysticism, and i would consider myself a mystic. i meditate, and meditation is very similar to prayer. i would like to not have this be an inquisition of however so i wouldnt want my personal beliefs to be put on trial so much as the general belief of mysticism.

Alright, if Gnosticism is too difficult to discuss, what are some of the general beliefs of Mysticism?

their stance on normal chuch doctrines vary alot. this is generally not a topic that the idea of christian mysticism teaches about.

the core of christian mysticism is that there is extreme value in attempting to communicate directly with the divine. they usually do this by meditation, trace and concentration.

do you mean trance or trace? My personal beliefs are that since God's children know him and listen to his voice (John 10:27), they can communicate with Him and enjoy Him at any time since the Holy Spirit dwells inside of them, even in times of "spiritual dryness" when a believer spends some amount of time "not feeling God" or "not feeling God very much." Prayer and scriptural reading are key ways in which we communicate with God. Usually, times of dryness have to do with a believer's lack of engaging in these disciplines.

My general fear is that certain people who may be trying to imitate forms of eastern meditation might not have the Holy Spirit in them, which would of course affect their salvation. Before one knows how to communicate with God, one must know God. YOu know God when you are saved, and that way, you can listen to His voice. Most times, salvation comes about by hearing and obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I really have no reason to openly persecute or malign Christian mystics or mystics in general, as Jesus explicitly commands that we love, but my fear is that they might not know God at all, therefore attempting to find Him in the wrong places.

eastern meditation is certainly a different thing than christian meditation. when one meditates in the correct western christian fashion, no ill effects should be had on ones faith. it should only strengthen it.

mystery wrote:

therockismighty wrote:

1 John is a good thing to read.... basis for my wariness of mysticism and gnosticism.

This is from the commentary in my bible:

Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of God's becoming human. Because they believed that the physical body was intrinsically evil, they denied that a pure God could take on a body....
The apostle John debated in person with the Gnostics of his day, and he had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter( 1 John 4)....throughout the letter, especially in 4:2-3, the author lambastes those who deny Jesus came in the flesh.

To Gnositcs, all matter was evil. Only the spirit was pure, and the Gnostics sought to rise to higher, more spiritual plane. This teaching often produced a side effect: people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics. Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin. Thus, they could act anyway they wanted.

Aging John roared out against the twin dangers of Gnosticism: immoral living and doubts that Christ became man. Beliefs must be judged by actions they produce, and John stresses the theme of brotherly love. He primarily refutes errors by presenting a wholesome picture of the Christian life as it is supposed to be lived.

True fellowship is not a secret initiation into a New Age- type elite, but relationship with the Father through Christ. And that also entails responsibilities to others in God's family.



READ 1 John before answering:

Question: Gnosticism showed itself in several ways: the belief that matter was evil, a desire for "super- spirituality" a tendency toward loose morals. How can we counter those same trends among Christians?

you sir, do not truly understand the tenets of gnosticism. moral living is very important in gnosticism as it is the pathway to gnosis.

How can one live morally if one does not follow the commandments of God? How can one please God without saving faith? Can you explain to us please what "gnosis" is?

mystery wrote:

eastern meditation is certainly a different thing than christian meditation. when one meditates in the correct western christian fashion, no ill effects should be had on ones faith. it should only strengthen it.

I agree

FuneralOath wrote:

mystery wrote:

therockismighty wrote:

1 John is a good thing to read.... basis for my wariness of mysticism and gnosticism.

This is from the commentary in my bible:

Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of God's becoming human. Because they believed that the physical body was intrinsically evil, they denied that a pure God could take on a body....
The apostle John debated in person with the Gnostics of his day, and he had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter( 1 John 4)....throughout the letter, especially in 4:2-3, the author lambastes those who deny Jesus came in the flesh.

To Gnositcs, all matter was evil. Only the spirit was pure, and the Gnostics sought to rise to higher, more spiritual plane. This teaching often produced a side effect: people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics. Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin. Thus, they could act anyway they wanted.

Aging John roared out against the twin dangers of Gnosticism: immoral living and doubts that Christ became man. Beliefs must be judged by actions they produce, and John stresses the theme of brotherly love. He primarily refutes errors by presenting a wholesome picture of the Christian life as it is supposed to be lived.

True fellowship is not a secret initiation into a New Age- type elite, but relationship with the Father through Christ. And that also entails responsibilities to others in God's family.



READ 1 John before answering:

Question: Gnosticism showed itself in several ways: the belief that matter was evil, a desire for "super- spirituality" a tendency toward loose morals. How can we counter those same trends among Christians?

you sir, do not truly understand the tenets of gnosticism. moral living is very important in gnosticism as it is the pathway to gnosis.

How can one live morally if one does not follow the commandments of God? How can one please God without saving faith? Can you explain to us please what "gnosis" is?

gnostics are not traditionally christian, they do however generally live morally. morality is important to them. almost all gnostic sects are directly at odds with exoteric christian teaching.

gnosis is divine knowledge.

if Gnosis is divine knowledge, why would anyone try to reach it? How can anyone reach it? Since God is holy, and we are sinful and corrupt, and limited, how can anyone, through their own power, reach this in this world or the next? I fear that a christian mystic would not understand the attributes of God or salvation. God commands us to follow his laws, and he gives us the ability to please him "faith" in "salvation." This happens when God reveals himself to us, and we repent of our sin and place our trust in Him. I fear that a Christian mystic is trying to seek God on their own terms. Jesus explicitly mentions the terms of following him. They include repentance, self denial, and dependence on God. We have yet to realize how far and different we are from God. There is an infinite chasm between Him and us. We are helpless by ourselves.

gnostics would have a different understanding entirely. they read the bible differently that you or even I. it is far enough away of an interpretation it really cant be argued. it would be like arguing absolute truth with a muslim. they would cite their holy books, you would cite yours, no point in it.


a christian mystic talks to God, God is never bossed around, when he feels the need to reveal he does. a christian mystic has faith. a christian mystic is entirely dependent on God.

mystery wrote:

therockismighty wrote:

1 John is a good thing to read.... basis for my wariness of mysticism and gnosticism.

This is from the commentary in my bible:

Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of God's becoming human. Because they believed that the physical body was intrinsically evil, they denied that a pure God could take on a body....
The apostle John debated in person with the Gnostics of his day, and he had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter( 1 John 4)....throughout the letter, especially in 4:2-3, the author lambastes those who deny Jesus came in the flesh.

To Gnositcs, all matter was evil. Only the spirit was pure, and the Gnostics sought to rise to higher, more spiritual plane. This teaching often produced a side effect: people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics. Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin. Thus, they could act anyway they wanted.

Aging John roared out against the twin dangers of Gnosticism: immoral living and doubts that Christ became man. Beliefs must be judged by actions they produce, and John stresses the theme of brotherly love. He primarily refutes errors by presenting a wholesome picture of the Christian life as it is supposed to be lived.

True fellowship is not a secret initiation into a New Age- type elite, but relationship with the Father through Christ. And that also entails responsibilities to others in God's family.



READ 1 John before answering:

Question: Gnosticism showed itself in several ways: the belief that matter was evil, a desire for "super- spirituality" a tendency toward loose morals. How can we counter those same trends among Christians?

you do not seem truly understand the tenets of gnosticism. moral living is very important in gnosticism as it is the pathway to gnosis.

this is back in biblical days, what it was then.. as in 1 John era.... not what is now or has morphed into a wolf in sheeps clothing.

elaborate

I will tomorrow, my psychology essay beckons

okay
because my research on gnosticism would indicate that it has always basically been the same, a quest for gnosis.