thats awesome for you, I will bring my rebuttal on a platter tomorrow for sures.

FuneralOath wrote:

When we meditate, we are to meditate on God

We are also to meditate on His Word:

This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night - Joshua 1:8


Eastern meditation involves emptying your mind. Christian meditation involves filling it with the things of God.

I have no problem with true Christian mysticism...but I have a huge problem with mysticism that mixes Christian and eastern ideas and practices.

I have always sort of considered myself a bit of a mystic, but not in any eastern sense of the word. One book that I found very inspriational is:


The Minds Road to God by Saint Bonaventura


I certainly don't think we should have a feeling based faith, or that people who don't emotionally experience God are somehow less spiritual than those of us who are do feel things emotionally. But I do respond to God emotionally, and I always have. It's part of my make-up.

I haven't read this whole thread, but.

1. There is nothing wrong with Christian Mysticism. It is the practice and experiential knowledge of deep prayer, such as meditation and contemplation.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

"Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

"...exceedingly great and precious promises [are given unto us]; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust"

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Some Christian mystics you may know of:

St. Paul
St. Peter
St. Clement of Alexandria
St. Athanasius
St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Anselm
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Catherine of Sienna
St. Ignatius of Loyola
St. Teresa of Avila
St. John of the Cross
St. Francis de Sales
St. Pio of Pietrelcina

Your statement that mysticism is "an excellent place for demonic activity to fester" is nonsense.

2. Gnosticism, completely unrelated to mysticism, is a limp heresy, discussed to death so I see no point in echoing everyone else.

im glad im not the only one who thinks that meditation on God is not evil.

The Gnostics referenced in 1 John were a group that rejected the humanity of Christ because they believed that the physical was inherently evil, and that God could not exist in human form because that would make a part of God evil, which they didn't believe could/would happen. Their practice was then to "live like the devil" because the flesh was evil & could not be made good (according to what they believed). The text in 1 John speaks directly to the early church where Gnostics were asserting their influence. The Gnostics referenced in 1 John also believed that true knowledge of God could not be obtained via prayer, reading scripture, or via listening in the synagogues, but only through some kind of meditative state where they claimed to have "communion with the divine". This was the "secret" knowledge that they claimed only they had. John speaks to the church to warn them of the Gnostics and strengthen their faith & position as the true Christian church.

Keep in mind, I'm no expert on the subject, but my Assistant Pastor just finished a series on 1 John a couple weeks ago, so most of this is coming from the series he preached & so it's all fresh in my mind. I'm not familiar with Gnosticism outside of the context of 1 John, so I can't speak to that.

MetalFRO wrote:

The Gnostics referenced in 1 John were a group that rejected the humanity of Christ because they believed that the physical was inherently evil, and that God could not exist in human form because that would make a part of God evil, which they didn't believe could/would happen. Their practice was then to "live like the devil" because the flesh was evil & could not be made good (according to what they believed). The text in 1 John speaks directly to the early church where Gnostics were asserting their influence. The Gnostics referenced in 1 John also believed that true knowledge of God could not be obtained via prayer, reading scripture, or via listening in the synagogues, but only through some kind of meditative state where they claimed to have "communion with the divine". This was the "secret" knowledge that they claimed only they had. John speaks to the church to warn them of the Gnostics and strengthen their faith & position as the true Christian church.

Keep in mind, I'm no expert on the subject, but my Assistant Pastor just finished a series on 1 John a couple weeks ago, so most of this is coming from the series he preached & so it's all fresh in my mind. I'm not familiar with Gnosticism outside of the context of 1 John, so I can't speak to that.

this is certainly a breed of gnostics.

there is another breed however that believes that christ was born completely human and died a God. he was born human, achieved gnosis, thereby becoming divine.

this really shows how much gnosticism varies.

Mark wrote:

I haven't read this whole thread, but.

1. There is nothing wrong with Christian Mysticism. It is the practice and experiential knowledge of deep prayer, such as meditation and contemplation.

Perhaps we aren't talking about the same kind of Mysticism? Read:

Quote :

What is Mysticism?

To many modern Christians, words like "meditation," "mystic," and "mysticism" bring to mind Eastern religions, not Christianity. Certainly Eastern religions are known for their mysticism; however, mysticism is not only a vital part of the Christian heritage as well, but it is actually the core of Christian spirituality. Mysticism simply means the spirituality of the direct experience of God. It is the adventure of "the wild things of God."

The direct experience of God is a kind of knowing, which goes beyond intellectual understanding. It is not a matter of "belief." It is marked by love and joy, but it is not "emotional experience." In many ways, it is better described by what it is not. To describe what it is, we must use metaphors—the marriage of the soul to Christ, the death of the "old man" and birth of the "new man," being the "body of Christ."

Jesus proclaimed "I and the Father are one," (Jn. 10.30) showing the world what the union of God and man can be. Christian mysticism is about nothing else but this transforming union.

Christ is the sole end of Christian mysticism. Whereas all Christians have Christ, call on Christ, and can (or should) know Christ, the goal for the Christian mystic is to become Christ—to become as fully permeated with God as Christ is, thus becoming like him, fully human, and by the grace of God, also fully divine. In Christian teaching this doctrine is known by various names—theosis, divinization, deification, and transforming union.

Taken From: http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php

If all that "experiential knowledge of deep prayer, such as meditation and contemplation" you mentioned is meant to acheive that end, then we have a huge problem.


They very greatly pervert the context of John 10:30 to use it to promote the idea that we can somehow merge with God and become divine. This is grossly unbiblical. There is very much wrong with "Christian" mysticism. Further, it is clearly taught in the Bible that Christianity is a matter of belief and faith.

that site is not the be all, end all of christian mysticism.

mystery wrote:

that site is not the be all, end all of christian mysticism.

Point me to a website that explains what the majority belief among christian mystics is, please.

hmmm i dont know. the internet sites seem to largely lean towards a more liberal version of mysticism.

it would be best to look at a classic of the genre.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.toc.html

although i wouldnt probably defend the most popular form of christian mysticism whatever that is exactly.

Quote :

They very greatly pervert the context of John 10:30 to use it to promote the idea that we can somehow merge with God and become divine. This is grossly unbiblical.

Theosis is actually a doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm not seeing what's anti-Christian or unbiblical about it. See:

2 Peter 1:4 wrote:

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

eastern orthodox church is tight. more mystic friendly than the others.

Thegra wrote:

Quote :

They very greatly pervert the context of John 10:30 to use it to promote the idea that we can somehow merge with God and become divine. This is grossly unbiblical.

Theosis is actually a doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm not seeing what's anti-Christian or unbiblical about it. See:

2 Peter 1:4 wrote:

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

What was stated in the website I quoted was that we literally "become Christ", "fully permeated with God". Becoming God is not biblical. That is what I argued against.

As well, I believe that 2 Peter 1:4 is speaking about the transforming work done by God to believers which allows us to "... escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." The context of the verse does not seem to be speaking about literally "[becoming] Christ", which is what the article I quoted was stating.

"God became man so that man might become God" - St. Augustine of Hippo

Mark wrote:

"God became man so that man might become God" - St. Augustine of Hippo

Scripture is more valuable, authoritative, and truthful to me than St. Augustine of Hippo's words

St. Augustine probably had the whole Bible memorized, and knew what it meant much more than you did.

Mark wrote:

St. Augustine probably had the whole Bible memorized, and knew what it meant much more than you did.

Yeah, but there are also hundreds of well-versed theologians who all have different opinions on different subjects. They all know a lot, but they cannot all be 100% correct otherwise contrary ideas would both be true, which is a logical impossibility. Smart people can be wrong. I realize that St. Augustine was a brilliant man, and well-versed in his particular theology but humans make errors. My intent with my previous post was to nudge you into providing me with some scripture to back up that belief. Please do so, because I will not take St. Augustine's word for it... He may have been very intelligent, but he was also human.

LOL - Davis, you basically summed up what I was going to say, but you said it better

Kan-o-sushi wrote:

Thegra wrote:

Quote :

They very greatly pervert the context of John 10:30 to use it to promote the idea that we can somehow merge with God and become divine. This is grossly unbiblical.

Theosis is actually a doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm not seeing what's anti-Christian or unbiblical about it. See:

2 Peter 1:4 wrote:

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

What was stated in the website I quoted was that we literally "become Christ", "fully permeated with God". Becoming God is not biblical. That is what I argued against.

As well, I believe that 2 Peter 1:4 is speaking about the transforming work done by God to believers which allows us to "... escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." The context of the verse does not seem to be speaking about literally "[becoming] Christ", which is what the article I quoted was stating.

Right. Theosis doesn't say we become ontologically God, but rather we share in His divine nature. I believe the article was taking the latter view, since it specifically calls it Theosis.

John 17:20-23 wrote:

20 My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

That sounds like what the article was saying.

Quote :

"God became man so that man might become God" - St. Augustine of Hippo

Excellent quote.

I would say that i am a mystic, and nothing is more important than scripture in my thinking, without it we are lost. But those who would emasculate the faith by twisting "mysticism" into something un scriptural are as bad as those who use thier "mystic" experiences to dictate scriptures interpretation. both are wrong. We are made for a relationship with God, and were told by Christ to pray for that to happen, on earth as it is in heaven. I dont believe in whacko mysticism, just that i can meditate on scripture, hear from the Lord (thru the Holy Spirit, and revelation of scripture as i study etc).... That I can walk with the Lord, because I am covered in the blood of Christ, i have relationship with the Lord.
Without this relationship, we are dead in the water, we need the Lord to have a valid living Christian walk, without God we are nothing... we become like the Pharisees...

Mark wrote:

"God became man so that man might become God" - St. Augustine of Hippo

How wrong indeed... we are to be like Christ, but not become God... very very dangerous territory.

I think if we are spiritual Christ followers, why must we chuck the word Mysticism in the mix?, I would only use that if I wasn't a Christian. I would just say I am a Spirit Filled Christian, err on the side of caution is my way of thinking and being when discussing and praying where the spiritual realm is concerned.... you are playing with things beyond your control or comprehension.



Chew on this article and get back to me:



Contemporary Christianity is following "every wind of doctrine." Believers are listening to what their "itching ears want to hear." Regrettably, their itching ears are tuned to neo-gnostic heresy. One of the obstacles the Apostles faced were false teachers, the Gnostics being the most prevalent of the bunch. Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy in the first century church. Here's the crux of Gnosticism:

"Christian Gnosticism is the belief that one must have a "gnosis" (from Greek "Gnosko," to know) or inner knowledge which is mystical knowledge obtained only after one has been properly initiated. Only a few can possess this mystical knowledge, limiting the number of those "in the know". … Gnosticism today seems to provide a lot of the form and color for the New Age portrait of Jesus where Jesus is seen as the illumined Illuminator: one who serves as a cosmic catalyst for others' awakening. As such it is as false and heretical as the Gnosticism of the first century and needs to be roundly condemned for the heresy that it is."[1]

Most of us think it's cool to have inside information. Makes one feel important. Even special. Who wouldn't want to cultivate a special experience with God that no one else has?

Sadly, Christians involve themselves in New Age practices like yoga meditation so they'll "be in the know."

You say, "My church isn't into any of that New Age stuff." No, but you'll read about the New Age stuff in books purchased in your local or online Christian bookstores. You'll also see an abundance of false teaching on Christian blogs all over the Internet.

Or you'll hear name it and claim it prosperity preachers on TV acting as if the Almighty is actually whispering into their ear as they impart their false teaching to millions of viewers.

You can't even escape Gnostic heresy in modern Christian music. You could be singing it in church! Listen to the lyrics of so-called worship songs and be amazed! And be sickened.

Last, but not least, the Oprah Winfrey Show if rife with Gnosticism. Those who tune into Oprah's program (a number of gullible Christians do) will hear her guests share their esoteric mystical experiences.

It's all about experience. "The Gnostics thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth, this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural, experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles."[2]

This fits liberal "Christianity" to a tee. The Word of God is out of date so experience becomes the teacher. In his essay "What are we talking about?" DA Carson points out that some leaders in the Emergent Church movement claim "changing times demand that fresh questions be asked of Scripture, and then fresh answers will be heard. What was an appropriate use of Scripture under modernism is no longer an appropriate use of Scripture under postmodernism." This is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater! But I digress.

The "knower" believes that the masses are not in possession of spiritual knowledge, and only the truly "enlightened" can experience God. Thus the reintroduction of contemplative, aka centering, prayer into the Church.

How is centering prayer different from biblical prayer? Centering prayer is a meditative practice where the focus is on having a mystical experience with God. Individuals choose a sacred word or symbol (such as God, Jesus, Father) and repeat it over and over during the twenty-minute exercise. Sitting comfortably in a meditative posture, with back straight and eyes closed, the sacred word is introduced as the symbol of consent to God's presence within. Should outside thoughts emerge in your mind, you must return "ever-so-gently" to your sacred word. At the end of your prayer time you're to remain in silence with eyes closed for a few minutes.

Sounds like a good way to relax, doesn't it? Trouble is, contemplative prayer has no Scriptural support whatsoever. Moreover, it's the exact opposite of how the Bible instructs believers to pray. Read the prayer of Jesus in Luke 11:1-4 below.[3]

"In that day you will no longer ask me anything," said Jesus to the apostles. "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete" (John 16:23-24).

Paul says, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God" (Philippians 4:6, NLT).; "Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (Col. 4:12).

Biblical prayer advocates engaging your mind, even wrestling in your mind, as did Epaphras, not emptying your mind!


Biblical prayer is comprehendible communication with God. Prayer is not an esoteric, yoga meditation. Granted, many contemplatives are ignorant of the true nature of meditation—but such ignorance is inexcusable and indefensible! The truth about the dangers of meditation is readily available in books and on the Internet. Contemplative spirituality, like Gnosticism, promotes pursuing a magical mystical experience with "God."

Overlooked are passages such as Joshua 1:8: "Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful." This command is from God! He wants His people to meditate on Scripture; He doesn't want them emptying their minds. Leaders in the Emergent movement have succeeded in persuading those who practice centering prayer to put aside God's Word and focus on a blank wall!

Will practicing Eastern mysticism really help to open you up to a greater spiritual experience with God, or just the opposite? Since God opposes mysticism in any form, perhaps contemplatives are really experiencing visits from demonic spirits. Meditate on that!

In 1 Cor. 2:15-18 Paul informs us that we have "the mind of Christ." In Romans 12:2 he reminds us that God's people are not to kowtow to this world, "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

In the words of William Hendrickson, "Even if we or a holy angel must be the object of God's righteous curse, were any of us to preach a gospel contrary to the one we humans previously preached to you, then all the more divine wrath must be poured out on those self-appointed nobodies who are now making themselves guilty of this crime."


Even if it were true, nowhere in the Bible are God's people encouraged to stop using their minds and to connect with the supernatural world. Believers are to worship God with their heart, strength, mind and soul. In an altered state of consciousness the mind is not engaged, it's blank!

therockismighty wrote:

Mark wrote:

"God became man so that man might become God" - St. Augustine of Hippo

How wrong indeed... we are to be like Christ, but not become God... very very dangerous territory.

There is a chance that we might be misconstruing Mr. Augustine's words or not fully understanding their context. It would be a good idea if we investigated more about the matter

I will take some time to learn more about Christian mysticism and mysticism in general so that I can have a more informed opinion on it. Then I will return to this thread.

"Christian mystic" is just a dead man's term for a Christian who is Waking up into his Eternal Life.

Reality is Mystical. Reality is also on the other side of hell.

We here in hell, do not live in Reality yet... but some of us, whom are often called the Mystics, have experienced and do experience a piece of Reality from time to time.. and so it makes us appear "mystical" to some extent.

The closer we get to the Other Side, the more "mystical" we become as Christians.. it is our "un-natural" progression.