therockismighty - great article, do you have a link to the original site?

first off, anyone can be saved, it is by faith that we are saved, our belief that Jesus was the messiah. When we read scripture and truth jumps off the page, that is given by the Spirit of the Lord. It is a spiritual encounter. It takes God to know God... we do not recieve any revelation of any kind, even saving revelation of Christ as the messiah were it not for the Lord. Our spiritual walks are spiritual. The bible seems to mandate things such as meditation, not stupid emptying oneselves... but filling themselves with truth. To think on the things of God, this is not repeating single word mantras, but a real spiritual activity, to praise the Lord for who He is, its a biblical mandate folks...


you dont like the word mystic , as it conjures up images of a lil devils on our shoulders.... whatever, I just realize anytime scripture comes alive in any believers life, that is a supernatural encounter, anytime we hear the Lord (and yes folks we will hear Him anyone who says differently is in direct contradiction to scripture) we have a supernatural encounter.. even the bible is full of God revealing Himself to mankind time and time again. This is not a special hidden knowledge, but the power of the Cross, the power of God as it is revealed to a lost and dying world. Jesus is the way, and anyone who believes is accepted... and has heard the Lord.

realize that those who wrote the bible, they wrote of how God had encountered them (its always about God never really about us IMO), this was expected and an everyday part of biblical mindset, and no it was not about hidden knowledge, it was about being a Child of God and having relationship with Him...


Gnosticism while utilizing the term of mysticism, is a completely different thing... anyone who claims to hear the Lord falls under the title of Mystic IMO... (and I am talking about regular Christians IMO) so we are not the same as gnostics... we are just Christians, who realize that regular spiritual disciplines seem to lead to encounters with the living God.

therockismighty wrote:

I think if we are spiritual Christ followers, why must we chuck the word Mysticism in the mix?, I would only use that if I wasn't a Christian. I would just say I am a Spirit Filled Christian, err on the side of caution is my way of thinking and being when discussing and praying where the spiritual realm is concerned.... you are playing with things beyond your control or comprehension.



Chew on this article and get back to me:



Contemporary Christianity is following "every wind of doctrine." Believers are listening to what their "itching ears want to hear." Regrettably, their itching ears are tuned to neo-gnostic heresy. One of the obstacles the Apostles faced were false teachers, the Gnostics being the most prevalent of the bunch. Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy in the first century church. Here's the crux of Gnosticism:

"Christian Gnosticism is the belief that one must have a "gnosis" (from Greek "Gnosko," to know) or inner knowledge which is mystical knowledge obtained only after one has been properly initiated. Only a few can possess this mystical knowledge, limiting the number of those "in the know". … Gnosticism today seems to provide a lot of the form and color for the New Age portrait of Jesus where Jesus is seen as the illumined Illuminator: one who serves as a cosmic catalyst for others' awakening. As such it is as false and heretical as the Gnosticism of the first century and needs to be roundly condemned for the heresy that it is."[1]

Most of us think it's cool to have inside information. Makes one feel important. Even special. Who wouldn't want to cultivate a special experience with God that no one else has?

Sadly, Christians involve themselves in New Age practices like yoga meditation so they'll "be in the know."

You say, "My church isn't into any of that New Age stuff." No, but you'll read about the New Age stuff in books purchased in your local or online Christian bookstores. You'll also see an abundance of false teaching on Christian blogs all over the Internet.

Or you'll hear name it and claim it prosperity preachers on TV acting as if the Almighty is actually whispering into their ear as they impart their false teaching to millions of viewers.

You can't even escape Gnostic heresy in modern Christian music. You could be singing it in church! Listen to the lyrics of so-called worship songs and be amazed! And be sickened.

Last, but not least, the Oprah Winfrey Show if rife with Gnosticism. Those who tune into Oprah's program (a number of gullible Christians do) will hear her guests share their esoteric mystical experiences.

It's all about experience. "The Gnostics thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth, this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural, experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles."[2]

This fits liberal "Christianity" to a tee. The Word of God is out of date so experience becomes the teacher. In his essay "What are we talking about?" DA Carson points out that some leaders in the Emergent Church movement claim "changing times demand that fresh questions be asked of Scripture, and then fresh answers will be heard. What was an appropriate use of Scripture under modernism is no longer an appropriate use of Scripture under postmodernism." This is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater! But I digress.

The "knower" believes that the masses are not in possession of spiritual knowledge, and only the truly "enlightened" can experience God. Thus the reintroduction of contemplative, aka centering, prayer into the Church.

How is centering prayer different from biblical prayer? Centering prayer is a meditative practice where the focus is on having a mystical experience with God. Individuals choose a sacred word or symbol (such as God, Jesus, Father) and repeat it over and over during the twenty-minute exercise. Sitting comfortably in a meditative posture, with back straight and eyes closed, the sacred word is introduced as the symbol of consent to God's presence within. Should outside thoughts emerge in your mind, you must return "ever-so-gently" to your sacred word. At the end of your prayer time you're to remain in silence with eyes closed for a few minutes.

Sounds like a good way to relax, doesn't it? Trouble is, contemplative prayer has no Scriptural support whatsoever. Moreover, it's the exact opposite of how the Bible instructs believers to pray. Read the prayer of Jesus in Luke 11:1-4 below.[3]

"In that day you will no longer ask me anything," said Jesus to the apostles. "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete" (John 16:23-24).

Paul says, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God" (Philippians 4:6, NLT).; "Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (Col. 4:12).

Biblical prayer advocates engaging your mind, even wrestling in your mind, as did Epaphras, not emptying your mind!


Biblical prayer is comprehendible communication with God. Prayer is not an esoteric, yoga meditation. Granted, many contemplatives are ignorant of the true nature of meditation—but such ignorance is inexcusable and indefensible! The truth about the dangers of meditation is readily available in books and on the Internet. Contemplative spirituality, like Gnosticism, promotes pursuing a magical mystical experience with "God."

Overlooked are passages such as Joshua 1:8: "Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful." This command is from God! He wants His people to meditate on Scripture; He doesn't want them emptying their minds. Leaders in the Emergent movement have succeeded in persuading those who practice centering prayer to put aside God's Word and focus on a blank wall!

Will practicing Eastern mysticism really help to open you up to a greater spiritual experience with God, or just the opposite? Since God opposes mysticism in any form, perhaps contemplatives are really experiencing visits from demonic spirits. Meditate on that!

In 1 Cor. 2:15-18 Paul informs us that we have "the mind of Christ." In Romans 12:2 he reminds us that God's people are not to kowtow to this world, "but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

In the words of William Hendrickson, "Even if we or a holy angel must be the object of God's righteous curse, were any of us to preach a gospel contrary to the one we humans previously preached to you, then all the more divine wrath must be poured out on those self-appointed nobodies who are now making themselves guilty of this crime."


Even if it were true, nowhere in the Bible are God's people encouraged to stop using their minds and to connect with the supernatural world. Believers are to worship God with their heart, strength, mind and soul. In an altered state of consciousness the mind is not engaged, it's blank!

what an awful article. trys to stereotype and demean all mystics. totally uncalled for. it basically just calls them immature and falsifies their reasoning. this is the definition of a strawman arguement.

mystery wrote:

what an awful article. trys to stereotype and demean all mystics. totally uncalled for. it basically just calls them immature and falsifies their reasoning. this is the definition of a strawman arguement.

Really? A strawman argument is attacking a position that your oponent does not really hold, and it seems to me like the article that was posted is discussing things that you stated earlier:

mystery wrote:

a state of gnosis, personal experience of the divine, its the ONLY way to actually know anything about God or what God wants.

mystery wrote:

the core of christian mysticism is that there is extreme value in attempting to communicate directly with the divine. they usually do this by meditation, trace and concentration.

If that article is inaccurate, please demonstrate how it is inaccurate and not just say that it is innacurate. Address at least some of the points discussed in the article and refute them.

see here

that article attempts to give the reasoning behind a christian mystics beliefs. it suggests that they think it is just "cool". their evidence for this? nothing. it is just baseless fear mongering. the altered state of meditation is not a state of a blank mind. this article really is just utterly offensive to anyone with any intellect. it also uses the misleading term "eastern mysticism". totally sneaky. western meditation is not eastern mysticism. horrible article.

MetalFRO wrote:

therockismighty - great article, do you have a link to the original site?

http://www.newswithviews.com/West/marsha39.htm

stuff about Rob Bell too, but the other stuff makes alot of sense.

The thing is I am a straight out believer in JC, none of this mysticism hoo haa getting in the way of who I am in Christ and how he leads my life. We are meant to concentrate on leading others to Christ rather than this plane of mist. If you are not a Christian and believe what you do, yeah I respect it but if you are trying to mish mash Jesus into this..... not ok

Tell me where as a Christian we label our selves mystic?

I do not have to agree or pat you on the head about mysticism , it is a dangerous territory to enter and of course you will say I am closed minded and another idiotic christian arguing about something she has no clue about. Sadly I do know what I am talking about and have experienced the effects of those who have dabbled in things much bigger than them and their want of self enlightenment.

It is offensive to my spirit, and others who are Christians on here and I am allowed to back it up with well learned and advised people. I guess it stirs something up inside cos someone is saying the truth, it hurts a bunch and hits hard...and a voice inside you gets it back up and wants you to get angry at what I say(not making this up, this happens when your not under God)..... you can think what you want or get angry, doesn't faze me, I love ya still but I do not have to accept falsehood.

I am open minded, more than many I know, just because I disagree with you doesn't make me some hateful fool. The fact is I am not letting anything sneak into my spirit that is not of God, that takes a wise head and heart, one which has been tainted and tricked in the past.

hahahahahhah
wow
talk about lack of perspective
you do not understand mysticism at all, as evidenced by your arguements, so its really not okay to make such a harsh condemnation of it.

I understand that I want no part of it... that is my comment. Get over yourself.

okay, i dont want to force my views on anyone, but i wont have them misrepresented and called evil. that i dont find at all acceptable.

where did I say it was evil?

I was mostly referring to Christians who are dabbling in this... was my intention.

Read it again.

therockismighty wrote:

I understand that I want no part of it... that is my comment. Get over yourself.

Why don't you actually, you know....read what other people have said in this thread? There have been at least several good posts, but you haven't responded to any of them, and you still keep pushing your definition of mysticism as if there is only one, when it has already been distinguished that this is false.

I have read them, I don't have to respond to every single post zhou.
I do not have to justify why I want no part in it, over and over.
I respect those who choose what they do but I do not have to agree.
Do you want a 5,000 word essay covering every single form of mysticism?
I have had good teaching I why I should avoid it, plain and simple I agree. I have also been in relationships with people who dabbled in various forms of mysticism and it doesn't sit well with ME... I am not speaking for the whole world.
I am allowed to say my view, as do you.

okay yes you are allowed a view, but you shouldnt then attack mysticism without information. mystics are allowed to their view too.

yes, I agree mystery.

therefore I will gather a massive amount of credible info and post it here.. cos you can't read whats in my head.

cool, as long as its not like that last time you posted "info"

Perhaps you should take a closer look at this. What you're talking about is COMPLETELY different.

Nosral wrote:

first off, anyone can be saved, it is by faith that we are saved, our belief that Jesus was the messiah. When we read scripture and truth jumps off the page, that is given by the Spirit of the Lord. It is a spiritual encounter. It takes God to know God... we do not recieve any revelation of any kind, even saving revelation of Christ as the messiah were it not for the Lord. Our spiritual walks are spiritual. The bible seems to mandate things such as meditation, not stupid emptying oneselves... but filling themselves with truth. To think on the things of God, this is not repeating single word mantras, but a real spiritual activity, to praise the Lord for who He is, its a biblical mandate folks...


you dont like the word mystic , as it conjures up images of a lil devils on our shoulders.... whatever, I just realize anytime scripture comes alive in any believers life, that is a supernatural encounter, anytime we hear the Lord (and yes folks we will hear Him anyone who says differently is in direct contradiction to scripture) we have a supernatural encounter.. even the bible is full of God revealing Himself to mankind time and time again. This is not a special hidden knowledge, but the power of the Cross, the power of God as it is revealed to a lost and dying world. Jesus is the way, and anyone who believes is accepted... and has heard the Lord.

realize that those who wrote the bible, they wrote of how God had encountered them (its always about God never really about us IMO), this was expected and an everyday part of biblical mindset, and no it was not about hidden knowledge, it was about being a Child of God and having relationship with Him...


Gnosticism while utilizing the term of mysticism, is a completely different thing... anyone who claims to hear the Lord falls under the title of Mystic IMO... (and I am talking about regular Christians IMO) so we are not the same as gnostics... we are just Christians, who realize that regular spiritual disciplines seem to lead to encounters with the living God.

I will get it from pastors, well known christian authors and those who were once into various forms of mysticism.

I'm not on a mission to prove you stupid or point at you and go " see look I proved it now"..... I am stating what I believe and why I err on the side of caution when it comes to some things.

Comes with trials, experience and growing.

Zhou Tai 04 wrote:

Perhaps you should take a closer look at this. What you're talking about is COMPLETELY different.

Nosral wrote:

first off, anyone can be saved, it is by faith that we are saved, our belief that Jesus was the messiah. When we read scripture and truth jumps off the page, that is given by the Spirit of the Lord. It is a spiritual encounter. It takes God to know God... we do not recieve any revelation of any kind, even saving revelation of Christ as the messiah were it not for the Lord. Our spiritual walks are spiritual. The bible seems to mandate things such as meditation, not stupid emptying oneselves... but filling themselves with truth. To think on the things of God, this is not repeating single word mantras, but a real spiritual activity, to praise the Lord for who He is, its a biblical mandate folks...


you dont like the word mystic , as it conjures up images of a lil devils on our shoulders.... whatever, I just realize anytime scripture comes alive in any believers life, that is a supernatural encounter, anytime we hear the Lord (and yes folks we will hear Him anyone who says differently is in direct contradiction to scripture) we have a supernatural encounter.. even the bible is full of God revealing Himself to mankind time and time again. This is not a special hidden knowledge, but the power of the Cross, the power of God as it is revealed to a lost and dying world. Jesus is the way, and anyone who believes is accepted... and has heard the Lord.

realize that those who wrote the bible, they wrote of how God had encountered them (its always about God never really about us IMO), this was expected and an everyday part of biblical mindset, and no it was not about hidden knowledge, it was about being a Child of God and having relationship with Him...


Gnosticism while utilizing the term of mysticism, is a completely different thing... anyone who claims to hear the Lord falls under the title of Mystic IMO... (and I am talking about regular Christians IMO) so we are not the same as gnostics... we are just Christians, who realize that regular spiritual disciplines seem to lead to encounters with the living God.

'

I have already read that, I still am allowed to not like the word mystic or agree with it. I respect what my pastors and leaders of the church say and in my faith and walk with God.. mysticism isn't something included in that. I don't hate someone who does think its ok. I just don't like it and do not have to change my view. Can you accept that Zhou?

This is getting annoying.


They.

Are.

COMPLETELY.

DIFFERENT.



What is so hard to realize about that? Just because he uses a word you don't like, which is properly fit into the context, you throw out everything that he said?

I know they are different!

I am talking about ANY form of IT!

I agree with some things he has said ... but not about integrating the word mystic or using that term within Christian faith.
My whole point has been : don't like mystic anything mixed up with Christianity or labelling myself in that sense. He thinks it is, that is his view. My view and belief that it is not... I didn't think it was that hard to gather.
Doesn't mean I think he is dumb and I haven't recognised any difference.

therockismighty wrote:

I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT!

I am talking about ANY form of IT!

Then please do us all a favor and explain EXACTLY how what he said goes against scripture.

Where in scripture does it say to say we are to call ourselves mystic , in the Christian sense?

that is what I find to be the sore point, never have heard of this and most teaching I have gotten wouldn't advocate it.

The rest that was said was excellent, IMO, just a couple things stood out that set off internal alarms.

therockismighty wrote:

Where in scripture does it say to say we are to call ourselves mystic , in the Christian sense?

That's a poor question to be asking. By the same line of thinking, you could say that we should not use the label of Trinity just because the word itself is never mentioned in scripture.


Here are the definitions which specifically apply here.

mystic=a person who claims to attain, or believes in the possibility of attaining, insight into mysteries transcending ordinary human knowledge, as by direct communication with the divine.

mystery=One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; an enigma. A religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation.


For instance, we cannot fully grasp the nature of God and His will as we are now, but we are revealed as to what parts of it are through divine revelation: reading and meditating on scripture, prayer, fellowship with other believers that He works through, and perhaps even blatant supernatural signs.

It is merely a way to describe our relationship with God, and nothing more.

Yep cool, I get that, still whats wrong with just calling myself a Believer in Christ?... that is my point, why call yourself something that can be alligned with something opposite to what you believe in.

I feel no need to argue or go on about anything else, I respect you all and may you keep on keeping on.

Peace out.

By that same line of thinking, why should I call myself a metal fan?