Kamerad Ash wrote:

Again, Lord V.. you assume to know what I think... and are wrong. I knew that post was a joke.

I'm basing my statement on the overall sentiment of your posts.

But you did indeed make a perfect example to show off your self righteous egotism for us.. within the last few posts.. here it is... anyone who is not blind can see the arrogance prevalent in this post-

Olias, based on this.. as one minor example-

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In all seriousness Ash, I state what I state because that is what I believe. I am sure of my beliefs, and I do not need to attack anyone just because they disagree with me. I am not jealous or upset because Shamax is a Calvinist, nor when Graybeard may disagree with a statement I make or BryneVampyr who may attempt to correct something I say or show a new way of saying something.

Iron sharpens Iron. The most mature person will see me as that. The immature will take his iron stick and poke me with it, because he seems not to know what to do with it.

I go to the root assumption of what people say and get them to think about what they believe, challenge their assumption, see that they are believing what they are believing for the right reason.

I would rather challenge Shamax and he walks away a better Christian or even a better Calvinist, than for me to ignore him and allow him to go down a path of self-delusion. I would rather challenge him and he becomes a better presenter of his argument and hopefully that will make him a better follower of Christ.

That is my statement. That is what I do, that is what I enjoy doing. I have had many people much smarter than you tell me I have made them rethink their position and they have walked away a better person, a better way to express their idea, because I challenged them.

Nice to see you know how to make text bold. But you didn't prove anything.

So what, Ash? Why do you care what I am, or more precise, what you THINK I AM?

How you portray me is very wrong and very inaccurate.

I am an intelligent person, I do have a high IQ, I do have the ability to see things differently than most, I have the ability to make up my own mind and I do not have to follow any one's personal point of view.

So what? I am not going to apologize for that, I have nothing to be ashamed of! I have no reason to be ashamed of the gifts that God gave to me, both naturally and gifts imparted on me from God.

If you have a problem with me, take it up with God.

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nor when Graybeard may disagree with a statement I make or BryneVampyr who may attempt to correct something I say or show a new way of saying something.

This is arrogant, Olias. Let me show you why. " who may attempt to correct something I say". He is eluding that any one can only attempt ot correct him.. not actually correct him.

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Iron sharpens Iron. The most mature person will see me as that. The immature will take his iron stick and poke me with it, because he seems not to know what to do with it.

Arrogance again. He declares that only an immature person would no see that what he is doing is prefectly correct, biblically. Cause well.. he is " just iron sharpening iron". And anyone who can't see that is immature.

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I go to the root assumption of what people say and get them to think about what they believe, challenge their assumption, see that they are believing what they are believing for the right reason.

Profound spiritual egotism. Not only does he make sure that people are believing what they believe for the right reason.. he has the power to go right to the root "assumption" of what they say.. and to therefore correct them. He leaves no possibility for the fact that he could Ever be corrected by someone else.

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I would rather challenge Shamax and he walks away a better Christian or even a better Calvinist, than for me to ignore him and allow him to go down a path of self-delusion.

Arrogance. He is saying that without his input.. he would be "allowing" Shamax to go down to self delusion. Because Shamax can't possible be correct.

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. That is what I do, that is what I enjoy doing. I have had many people much smarter than you tell me I have made them rethink their position and they have walked away a better person, a better way to express their idea, because I challenged them.

Self Conceit. I do, I have, because I challenged them. Never they have , they did.. they anything.

lord voldemort wrote:

So what, Ash? Why do you care what I am, or more precise, what you THINK I AM?

How you portray me is very wrong and very inaccurate.

I am an intelligent person, I do have a high IQ, I do have the ability to see things differently than most, I have the ability to make up my own mind and I do not have to follow any one's personal point of view.

So what? I am not going to apologize for that, I have nothing to be ashamed of! I have no reason to be ashamed of the gifts that God gave to me, both naturally and gifts imparted on me from God.

If you have a problem with me, take it up with God.

Wow. stand back and read your own posts, Lord V. Open your eyes, man. Pride is the most dangerous of sins, do you know this.. who profess to be so ascended in intelligence?

Kamerad Ash wrote:

lord voldemort wrote:

So what, Ash? Why do you care what I am, or more precise, what you THINK I AM?

How you portray me is very wrong and very inaccurate.

I am an intelligent person, I do have a high IQ, I do have the ability to see things differently than most, I have the ability to make up my own mind and I do not have to follow any one's personal point of view.

So what? I am not going to apologize for that, I have nothing to be ashamed of! I have no reason to be ashamed of the gifts that God gave to me, both naturally and gifts imparted on me from God.

If you have a problem with me, take it up with God.

Wow. stand back and read your own posts, Lord V. Open your eyes, man. Pride is the most dangerous of sins, do you know this.. who profess to be so ascending in intelligent?

I didn't detect any conceit in Paul's last post at all. Self-confidence ≠ "sinful pride".

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, I do have the ability to see things differently than most.

And how do " most " see things, Lord V?

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I have the ability to make up my own mind

As opposed to the rest of us who don't know how make up our own mind?

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I have no reason to be ashamed of the gifts that God gave to me, both naturally and gifts imparted on me from God.

What Gifts make you wiser than anyone, lord V? Intelligence?

What you see as prideful, therefore, I can not defend to you.

*comes home from work*
*checks the Calvinism thread for giggles*


/popcorn



Guys, it's an important point to make, and a noble pursuit - seeking to be salt & light, iron sharpening iron, seeking to keep spiritual pride in check all the while. But I believe it's getting a teensy bit off topic and would be better suited to another thread. I'd hate to see what's been a very edifying discussion thus far go to mothballs because a mod felt the need to lock the thread.

I agree, 100% Shamax.

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nor when Graybeard may disagree with a statement I make or BryneVampyr who may attempt to correct something I say or show a new way of saying something.

This is arrogant, Olias. Let me show you why. " who may attempt to correct something I say". He is eluding that any one can only attempt ot correct him.. not actually correct him.

Or you could be reading into his wording, grabbing at straws attempting to perpetuate a stupid hypothesis you have latched on to.

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Iron sharpens Iron. The most mature person will see me as that. The immature will take his iron stick and poke me with it, because he seems not to know what to do with it.

Arrogance again. He declares that only an immature person would no see that what he is doing is prefectly correct, biblically. Cause well.. he is " just iron sharpening iron". And anyone who can't see that is immature.

You have a funny way of stuffing words into people's mouths. He is talking about your attempts at approaching intellectual discussions turning into rabid verbal boxing matches. I mean, for christ's sake, you have got Joey, a dude who is usually cheering you on the sidelines, raising his eyebrow at you. This garbage about him being the only one who is correct is a straw man you have constructed in order to validate your view of him. The only person who said that was you. He is just a dude with a view, and because he is more comprehensive in his research then your average schmoe, you automatically just say "gasp, he is technical! Pharisee! Pharisee!"

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I go to the root assumption of what people say and get them to think about what they believe, challenge their assumption, see that they are believing what they are believing for the right reason.

Profound spiritual egotism. Not only does he make sure that people are believing what they believe for the right reason.. he has the power to go right to the root "assumption" of what they say.. and to therefore correct them. He leaves no possibility for the fact that he could Ever be corrected by someone else.

No. Actually he has stated many times that he could be wrong. However, everybody who believes anything is working off an assumption, whether one has the burden of proof to validate that assumption or otherwise. The fact that you misconstrued that word to mean anything other than that proves you have no business busting in on these threads like some holy warrior with a cause.

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I would rather challenge Shamax and he walks away a better Christian or even a better Calvinist, than for me to ignore him and allow him to go down a path of self-delusion.

Arrogance. He is saying that without his input.. he would be "allowing" Shamax to go down to self delusion. Because Shamax can't possible be correct.

Again, you are grabbing at straws. What Christian grows in his knowledge without an outside source to Challenge those views? A man who is allowed to walk on in his faith unchallenged does't really believe with true faith, but with blind sheep like trust. I am thankful that others have challenged my Catholic views. Because otherwise, I would be "allowed" to walk on without a true understanding of what I believe.

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. That is what I do, that is what I enjoy doing. I have had many people much smarter than you tell me I have made them rethink their position and they have walked away a better person, a better way to express their idea, because I challenged them.

Self Conceit. I do, I have, because I challenged them. Never they have , they did.. they anything.

Confindence is a damnable offense to you isnt it? Here is a guy who challenges people's views. And they grow in their confidence for having been challenged. Call it intellectual resistance training. You can't grow in knowledge by resisting thin air.

In the days of old, this was how one learned. Conflicting points of view. It was classical curriculum. Nowadays, you get one sided views in todays academic atmosphere. Your hatred of the classical method is really just symptomatic of the progressive method. Never take your opponents opposition and consider it (and by extension, grow from it.). No, attack, suppress, twist, distort. A real life example is Obama's method of addressing his opposition.

What I am trying to get at, is that the core basic beliefs we all share, SHOULD, unite us... of course we all have our own theolgical stances... but please... can you not get that is all I meant, and many are letting their stances get in the way.

Theology does matter... I study ALOT, but I am not letting that get in the way of what I am here for hey... that is to be like Christ and be His hands and feet. Atm these hands and feet are being used by many to disfigure and disjoint... create unnecessary division. Thus why I shirk labels.

The thing is, there isn't much common ground between Calvinists and orthodox Christians. In fact, their core basic beliefs are polar opposites. Orthodox Christians believe that God loved the entire world and gave Christ to atone the sins of anyone who chooses him. Calvinists believe that God pre-damned half or more of his creations using some election process that is beyond human scrutiny and only gave Christ to atone the sins of those whom he liked enough not to fry in Satan's weenie roast for eternity. To use an analogy, two people might like music, but if one likes black metal and the other likes Justin Bieber, they don't really have much in common. Calvinists and orthodox Christians both read the Bible, but their interpretations are diametrically opposed to each other.

therockismighty wrote:

What I am trying to get at, is that the core basic beliefs we all share, SHOULD, unite us... of course we all have our own theolgical stances... but please... can you not get that is all I meant, and many are letting their stances get in the way.

Theology does matter... I study ALOT, but I am not letting that get in the way of what I am here for hey... that is to be like Christ and be His hands and feet. Atm these hands and feet are being used by many to disfigure and disjoint... create unnecessary division. Thus why I shirk labels.

I get what you are saying. But don't worry. We aren't dividing. Just discussing.

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Calvinists believe that God pre-damned half or more of his creations using some election process that is beyond human scrutiny and only gave Christ to atone those whom he liked enough not to fry in Satan's weenie roast for eternity.

Or....

God already knew what we would choose.. since we have limited free will.

There is a concept to think about. Limited free will.

Can a man have a completely free will, Last First Born, what do you think?

Because in my reasoning I always run across a logical problem with that. Man does not know enough to have a Completely free will. We are very lowly beings.. in comparison to Angels .. and of course God.

In the hierarchy of greatest Knowing to least...

First there is God.
Then are the Angels.
Then Men.
Then Animals.

How can a person or entity use his free will to choose something except by what he Knows and Understands?

Understanding this, I would say that man has a less free will than an angel.. and angels have less than God. God would have to be the ONLY ONE has a completely free will. Why? Because he knows and understand all things. and from Him all knowing and understanding comes.

So, if God is the only one with a completely free will, he is also therefore the only one who is completely Free. The Angels would not be Completely Free.. and even less so.. Man.

I know most of you aren't, just in general Christian Churches.. this happens all the time. No wonder people find Christ off putting.

My church has linked up with many other Churches... ignoring denomination.. in fact one has left its denomination to just stand wholly on the Word and not be guided by rules made by its denomination.. which sounded more like a business or corporation e.g.- Need have x amount of newly saved people, Send all the best leaders of your church out to other places- no questioning it... ( ok , so if they leave, what the heck would happen to their church???!!!) etc.... load of crap..... not Christ centred at all.

Well, predestination based on God already knowing all of our choices and the outcome of our choices makes more sense. I'd never heard that spin on predestination until now.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Well, predestination based on God already knowing all of our choices and the outcome of our choices makes more sense. I'd never heard that spin on predestination until now.

Also, God existing in the Future, the Past and the Present all in the same time.. would mean that He already knows you NOW in all of those places. HE knows You Now either in Heaven or in Destruction.

( hence the Calvinist understanding )

It seems to me, what we live now ( in this present).. is through choices we have already chosen.. thoughts we have already thought and air we have already breathed.. from the perspective of Omnipotence.

Arriving into Eternal Life, I believe, will be like waking up back into the place you always existed in and never really left. Because it is Life.

Arriving in Eternal damnation, I believe, will be the opposite of "waking up'.. it will be like being completely Asleep... because you never were actually Alive. We are conscious in our sleep, but yet not conscious. Such is the consciousness of the torment of destruction, in my opinion. Terrible , but yet not experienced as we might think.






..

therockismighty wrote:

I know most of you aren't, just in general Christian Churches.. this happens all the time. No wonder people find Christ off putting.

My church has linked up with many other Churches... ignoring denomination.. in fact one has left its denomination to just stand wholly on the Word and not be guided by rules made by its denomination.. which sounded more like a business or corporation e.g.- Need have x amount of newly saved people, Send all the best leaders of your church out to other places- no questioning it... ( ok , so if they leave, what the heck would happen to their church???!!!) etc.... load of crap..... not Christ centred at all.

In the presense of non-believers, yeah, this stuff is damaging. But in private, it's alright.

therockismighty wrote:

I know most of you aren't, just in general Christian Churches.. this happens all the time. No wonder people find Christ off putting.

My church has linked up with many other Churches... ignoring denomination.. in fact one has left its denomination to just stand wholly on the Word and not be guided by rules made by its denomination.. which sounded more like a business or corporation e.g.- Need have x amount of newly saved people, Send all the best leaders of your church out to other places- no questioning it... ( ok , so if they leave, what the heck would happen to their church???!!!) etc.... load of crap..... not Christ centred at all.

I chose my denomination because I believe that it's teachings line up closest with the Word and that it is very Christ centered. Just because it is a denomination doesn't mean that it isn't Christ centered or that it doesn't stand on the Word of God.

Churches that are non-denominational are not all in agreement, either...they say that they just go by the Word, but they still come to different conclusions and disagree on various teachings.

As for doing things with other churches...it happens all the time between denominations. My pastor is a member of a evangelical pastors group that has pastors from several different denominations. We get together with other churches for different activities in the community and to support various ministries. Our school has students from all different denominations that attend. I think you are being unfair to denominations and a bit naive about there being lack of divisions in or between churches that don't claim a denomination.

Personally, I find discussions about doctrine and theology helpful. I learn what others believe and have a better understanding of their point of view...my own beliefs are challenged and I have to study more and perhaps adjust my position if I think that is warrented.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Calvinists believe that God pre-damned half or more of his creations using some election process that is beyond human scrutiny and only gave Christ to atone the sins of those whom he liked enough not to fry in Satan's weenie roast for eternity.

Incorrect. Although, it's another great example of a typical mischaracterization of what Calvinists believe - a very common one too. This statement rings of the same kind of straw-man demonization that comes from a lot of Hitchens-esque atheists when they call the crucifixion "cosmic child abuse" or say that Jesus tells his followers to become cannibals. It shows that exact same level of understanding of the worldview they're mocking and ridiculing, and it's as equally helpful to the discussion at hand... which is to say not at all.

Calvinists have much more common ground there than you say, as I think has already been evidenced, but maybe it got lost in the shuffle for you.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Orthodox Christians believe that God loved the entire world and gave Christ to atone the sins of anyone who chooses him

Which is what Calvinists believe. The distinguishing difference is that the Calvinist's understanding is that no one would choose Christ, unless God first moved upon that person and changed their hateful, rebellious heart. Since however "the elect" don't wear bright green tophats and blue suspenders, we must "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

It doesn't require a positive act on God's part to "pre-damn" anyone. We are all damned outside Christ. As rebel sons of Adam, we spit in God's face and want nothing to do with Him or his kingdom. Thankfully, God is not only holy and just in punishing sin, but to demonstrate mercy and love has chosen for himself a people out of every tribe, tongue, and nation and through the "foolish" means of word and sacrament, his Holy Spirit brings conviction upon rebellios God-haters and gives them a heart of flesh to draw them unto himself.

If I see stupid bickerings again then I'll lock this thread. Thank you Bryne for bringing this thread back to topic

mazzie wrote:

If I see stupid bickerings again then I'll lock this thread. Thank you Bryne for bringing this thread back to topic

Alright.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Well, predestination based on God already knowing all of our choices and the outcome of our choices makes more sense. I'd never heard that spin on predestination until now.

This is actually the definition of "predestination" I've heard most Arminians give. They'll usually say that in Romans 8:29 God isn't foreknowing "people" but rather their choices. Unfortunately, in the NT when proginowskow (foreknow) is the verb and God is the subject, the object is always people. To define predestination as "God looking down the corridors of time to see what will happen" is actually fairly close to what Molinists claim with the concept "middle knowledge" (for more on Molinism, google William Lane Craig).

And again, I feel like I need to be extra careful any time I state something to the contrary in this thread, but I'm not saying that anyone who holds that understanding of predestination is part of the irrevocably damned or something. I'm just making it clear that to a Calvinist, it's understood differently and it's an important distinction.

mazzie wrote:

If I see stupid bickerings again then I'll lock this thread. Thank you Bryne for bringing this thread back to topic

Thanks, Mazzie

I said in general.. and was talking about what is happening in my area... key words to read.

Doctrine and theology etc are important... the thing is, truthfully... denominations have divided too many of Gods people- this cannot be dismissed, its true... and we aren't getting over things we need to , to unite and stand up and support each other in this time of foulness in the world.

Glad your church does what it does.. cool cool...

but one has to have a look around many denominations and see the " us vs them" mentality,.... the cliques formed... the concentration on themselves and looking good... etc etc amen... I could go on forever. No church is free from problems.. yes, uh that would be obvious.

Many churches are splitting, fighting, pastors being asked to resign due to foul behaviour, nice buildings and awesome equipment took precedence over being servants for Christ... blah blah blah blah blahhh,,, you get the gist.

We all have ideologies that form the basis of our faith.... but for me, I am not going to allign myself in the Calvinist camp, Lutheran, Pentecostal... whatever label you dig.. I just am a plain old follower of Christ Jesus ya'll, boring as bat poo.. but I like it.. I can't hide behind anything... its just the plain old truth. If I need to say what I believe and allign myself with, I'll explain in detail.. bits might be Calvinist, bits may be Armenian or however you spell it.. but seriously.. don't care.. God is it and His teaching.

I am far from naive, I am on the forefront... on the ready, all the time... stepping continually out of my comfort zone for Christ... my eyes are well open.

Would a naive person as I be a leader and in charge of a cell group?... maybe... maybe not.