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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:22 am

Shamax wrote:


1) God saves no one, and shows-forth his justice against sin, rebellion, and unrighteousness; but not his mercy.

2) God saves everyone, and shows his love and mercy, but his holiness as displayed through his just anger against sin is unseen.

3) God saves some and displays all of his attributes.

The law of non-contradiction comes to mind when I see this.

hmmmm.....
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:17 am

They very fac that people get upset about the idea of judgemtn and damnation... shows us why there is judgment and damnation.

It is because we judge God.. that damnation for us exists.

Again, sin is the devouring and worshipping of ones own self.. ones' own will.

When we Judge God, we proclaim that we know better.. and therefore are worshiping ourselves. Such is the nature of sin.

Therefore, in being upset about damnation, we are creating damnation.

JUdgement and Damnation come from within us.. not from God, for the simple reason that our sin nature causes us to Judge God.. and in so doing are heaping damnation upon ourselves.

This is what it means in the scripture- " Judge not, lest ye be Judged ".




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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:52 pm

Shamax wrote:
LastFirstborn wrote:
Alright. Thanks for the insight. One last thing: would it be one question too many to ask why God only chooses to show his mercy to some, and how he chooses them?

Short version of the answer (I could probably go in-depth a bit later if needed) is that God has many attributes (he's not *only* loving, he's not *only* just, etc) and there's basically three possibilities:

1) God saves no one, and shows-forth his justice against sin, rebellion, and unrighteousness; but not his mercy.

2) God saves everyone, and shows his love and mercy, but his holiness as displayed through his just anger against sin is unseen.

3) God saves some and displays all of his attributes.

also i believe if some weren't sent to damnation, we wouldn't realise what we're being saved FROM,...i dont know if i worded that accurately, nor if it has scriptural backing, but its a thought.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:56 pm

Wait, so some people being sent to the devil's weenie roast is worth it for some kind of lesson for everyone else? Couldn't an all-powerful God come up with a better solution?
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Shamax

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:03 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
Wait, so some people being sent to the devil's weenie roast is worth it for some kind of lesson for everyone else? Couldn't an all-powerful God come up with a better solution?

Actually, all are "worth it" in and of themselves. As it was in the days of Noah, "every intention of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually" There is none good, there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God. If your problem is with people being punished for sin, your problem is a lot larger than just Calvinism, and probably warrants its own thread. This one's become so entangled and derailed, I've all but ignored it.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:22 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
Wait, so some people being sent to the devil's weenie roast is worth it for some kind of lesson for everyone else? Couldn't an all-powerful God come up with a better solution?

I think most misunderstand this concept. They argue as it Hell is where God has to put people because he has no other place to put them, so they go to the "devils weenie roast". In reality, the judgment is final, based on the concept of life and death. We live in life and death. There is a second life and death. Choice is up to the person: if I chose Christ now, I will chose life, if I go and reject Christ, I choose death.

Life is resurrection, death is final judgment. Death is final, not man living in eternity being pitched forked by the devil. As Death is permanent in this life and age, death is permanent in that age. That means, they are not in eternal fire, but in eternal judgment of death, they cease to exist.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:25 pm

Shamax wrote:
LastFirstborn wrote:
Wait, so some people being sent to the devil's weenie roast is worth it for some kind of lesson for everyone else? Couldn't an all-powerful God come up with a better solution?

Actually, all are "worth it" in and of themselves. As it was in the days of Noah, "every intention of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually" There is none good, there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God. If your problem is with people being punished for sin, your problem is a lot larger than just Calvinism, and probably warrants its own thread. This one's become so entangled and derailed, I've all but ignored it.

It has not been derailed, they are discussion based off the logical conclusions and/or presuppositions of what people think Calvinism is. If you are familar with Calvinism than you need to fix and show the right view of it, as you understand it.

Many of the post here are questions or comments or responses to Calvinism in one way or another. If you can clarify it, do so. If you can not, than maybe it be best you ignore it because, than it will only grow as you explain yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:58 am

CorpulentCripple wrote:
i learned something about calvinism that even i, a calvinist. didnt know...

Calvinism teaches that Salvation is, in a sense, a trinitarian process...

the father, from before the beginning of time, chooses a people to himself based on no merit found in humanity...then he creates the world,...creates man,...sin enters the world...

Jesus then comes, Sheds his precious blood so that the payment of sin can be reconciled for The Father's Chosen ones. if i remember my theology correctly, not even jesus knows who they are.

then the holy spirit comes in, convicting each the father has chosen and The Son has died for, bringing them to repentance and faith.

edit: well i knew that was how it works,...i mean i just never thought about it being a "trinitarian process" pretty cool

i find nothing in scripture to support this, i beleive all man has free will to chose god and follow god or chose himself and doom himself, my theologies are strictly bible based, without any twisting or over-analyzing of the scripture, it's simple, and to the point.

i know this is a bit late of a response to this post but i've been busy and just now had a chance to check out this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:09 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Quote :
Angels have on choice, to stay with God or not. If they choose not, then they have no more choice, all they can do is go further down their choice. They have no freedom to return. There is no redemption for them. So Angels have the least amount of free will.

They have no chance of redemption not becaue they have a lesser free will.. but because they have a greater knowledge than men.. and with that, a higher will.

We have a chance at redemption because ... as Christ put it " we do not know what we do".

Angels on the other hand, know hat they do on a level far above man. Their Knowing is greater.. so that when they chose to Rebel.. they chose it with a level of free will that was Final and complete.. there was no going back.

The less free will you have.. the less you are responsible for your actions.

The more free will you have.. the mkore you are responsible for your actions.

For axample..

Animals ar enot in danger of judgement.. even thoughthey have souls.. becaue their freewill is so limited.

Human, while being in danger of judgment.. are able to escape it through a simple believe in Christ.. due tothe fact that their Free will is also limited and their knowledge of what they do is practically nil.

Angels.. ont eh other hand.. do knwo what they do.. their knowledge is greater.. they have sttod before God Himself... and therefore when they make a choice.. it is a knwoing choice.. an educated choice.. that is why they can not be redeemed.

interesting ideas, ive always wondered if animals have souls or not, i honestly dont know, i do have a firm idea that animals have absolutley no knowledge of good and evil, they just do what they do and there is no such thing as right or wrong. one thing i have tossed around in my mind, man was created in gods image, thus has a soul and can gain immortality, animals were not created in gods image, another interesting thing is science has shown humans are the only living thing that actually knows it eventually dies.

ive also seen alot of discussion going on here man has freewil, man does not have freewill, or mans freewill is limited. heres what i think, we are given free will to o what we want within the boundarys of the universal laws, for example, god can create and destroy matter, man cannot.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:20 am

I would disagree animals have souls, in the same way man does.

If you take the word soul and mean life, than I agree. As in, the animal has life. But once that life ends, than it ceases to exist.

If animals have souls like man does, than there is no difference between man and animal. The same is true if man has no soul and is just life, we are no difference than the animals.

But if man has a soul and animals do not, than man is unique of the creation.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:41 am

yea, im going to have to stick with, until further study, that animals most likely do not have souls in the sense that man does.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:45 am

I am doing a paper for my metaphysics class on the Body and Soul.

Most Christians believe in a form of Duality, that man has a body and soul.

I would recommend a book on this, but some of them are above my pay grade to read.

This study is so academic that it is very hard to understand.

If you want a basic understanding I would recommend Rene Descartes Meditations. This is the book where he states "I think, therefore, I am", which is his form of Dualism.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:14 pm

THere is a scripture verse that deals with this, although I can't remember where it is at the moment.

It says the souls of men go up to heaven and the souls of animals go down into the earth. This makes perfect sense. THe animal is very much apart of the earth. Man is very much apart of the divine.

Animals do have Souls.. when the holy spirit was upon me once I peered into an animals soul and communicated to it without words on a purely spiritual level.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:23 pm

Kamerad Ash wrote:
THere is a scripture verse that deals with this, although I can't remember where it is at the moment.

It says the souls of men go up to heaven and the souls of animals go down into the earth. This makes perfect sense. THe animal is very much apart of the earth. Man is very much apart of the divine.

I disagree that men automatically go to heaven, there are only a few instances where men have gone to heaven, the most prominent one is Enoch and Elijah.

The other is Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is what Jesus said about them means they are alive iwth him in paradise. The other is the thief on the cross. And those who were resurrected in Rev. 20, those killed by the Beast and False Prophet.

Everyone else does not seem to go to heaven, but some place else.

There seems to be a place where men souls go to "sleep" or rest. That can be awakened by them being called up, like Samuel. The fact that it states the "Dead in Christ arise first" means that they are still dead, awaiting the resurrection.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:28 pm

Quote :
I disagree that men automatically go to heaven, there are only a few instances where men have gone to heaven, the most prominent one is Enoch and Elijah.

That is irrelevant. Heaven in the context I was referring to simply means " up to God.. whether they achieve entry into the kingdom of heaven or not is a different mattere". Or whether they go there immediately or at a certain later point to be judged( due to the fall).. is also up to semantics.

THe point is stil the same.. the souls of men are made to go up to heaven.. and the soul sof animals are made to return to the earth.

Fallen man , may of course, change his destination.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:41 pm

It is relevant. But your point is taken.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:44 am



Just for the lols, just watch this Very Happy

Just for a laugh
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Shamax

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:00 am

LOL!! "Swisss Siiiiiiiiiide!" lol!

Highly-caricatured and wildly-misrepresentative in parts (so I don't expect to see anyone saying "See, you Reformed people think Calvin died on the cross for you!"), but still hilarious nonetheless (even though it probably shouldn't be) Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:20 pm

that ... was pretty funny.. heh.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:41 pm

I haven't followed this thread at all, but can I interject a question? OK.

Calvinism is basically an understanding that says salvation has nothing to do with our choice and thus gives full glory to God. We don't make a choice, it's completely God's irresistible grace. This should be an extremely humbling belief, yet the Reformed typically appear to me as being highly prideful when standing in opposition to the arminianist perspective. Why is that? To me, it seems like it is a belief more to be understood than to be argued, and pushing it on other people via debate defeats the purpose of understanding it and being humbled.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:00 pm

My question to Calvinists would be: if God's nature is so unfathomable to we human beings that we can't conclude that he is cruel per sending random people into eternal suffering for no apparent reason, how can you Calvinists conclude that he is good, that he is truthful, or that he is real? That seems like a double standard to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:41 pm

FireProphet wrote:
I haven't followed this thread at all, but can I interject a question? OK.

Calvinism is basically an understanding that says salvation has nothing to do with our choice and thus gives full glory to God. We don't make a choice, it's completely God's irresistible grace.

I would take a little bit of issue with that wording. It's not so much that it has "nothing to do with our choice" because as everyone knows from their own experiences, they comes a point that a decision is truly made. There's usually a definable moment, an epiphany of sorts, where a person says "I need to repent and cling to Christ". The core difference between Calvinists and Arminians is where God's role is in that process. The Calvinist believes that God makes the first move in regenerating the person (taking the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh) and as a result, the person who was once spiritually dead is now alive and able to feel true conviction over their sin. For the Arminian, usually, it is believed that God acts either alongside or immediately after the person's decision.

FireProphet wrote:
This should be an extremely humbling belief, yet the Reformed typically appear to me as being highly prideful when standing in opposition to the arminianist perspective. Why is that? To me, it seems like it is a belief more to be understood than to be argued, and pushing it on other people via debate defeats the purpose of understanding it and being humbled.

I agree with you whole-heartedly, and there are many on the Reformed side of the isle who give people who embrace the "doctrines of grace" a very bad name. Often, such overzealous types are affectionately referred to as "cage stage" Calvinists. Unfortunately, I was one myself and still, by the grace of God, have to check my motives and attitude often to make sure that I'm not stepping over into pride-ridden territory (still failing at times).

It *is* still a topic of "debate" however not so much because Calvinists are trying to bludgeon naysayers with the Five Points, but mostly because of the effects that belief have on other areas of our Christian life. Think about it a moment...

Whatever it is you believe about God's role in the "process" of salvation does have effects on things - especially in the ways you do ministry and evangelism. The view that is held often has other impacts on things like a persons view of the sufficiency of Scripture, the role and identity of traditions, the administration of sacraments, church government, and mercy missions. I'm not saying that because of their different views that Calvinists and Arminians are worlds apart in the way they do these things, but there are differences, and they often find their root in our personal theology.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that outside of scholastic debate (or one-on-one private conversation) that public discussion of "Calvinism vs. Arminianism" is neither educational, edifying, or really even entertaining. Mostly because it seems like it's starting from the wrong end. In practice, a person usually comes (or *should* come) to their view of soteriology (the doctrine of salvation) from careful study of Scriptures both on their own and via exhortation from other Christians in the body of Christ. To start just with the topic of "Calvinism vs. Arminianism" or "Monergism vs. Synergism" in the medium a public forum means people are usually not going to see a careful, thought-out approach to addressing the topic. Most are going to drive by, read a post or two, fire-off a post or two (sometimes based upon misconception) and never get a clear picture of what's being talked about, or more importantly, why it matters (its effects on ministry, evangelism, etc).
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:56 pm

(Bolding is mine)
LastFirstborn wrote:
My question to Calvinists would be: if God's nature is so unfathomable to we human beings that we can't conclude that he is cruel per sending random people into eternal suffering for no apparent reason, how can you Calvinists conclude that he is good, that he is truthful, or that he is real? That seems like a double standard to me.

I can't really answer that exact question, per se, because in the Christian sense I'm missing where "God's nature" being "unfathomable" has any part to play in it, but to the Calvinist (indeed, to any Christian) God is within his right to punish sin. The question seems to assume that humans are "neutral agents" which isn't what Christians believe (even those who aren't Calvinists). The whole point of Calvinist/Arminian contention is where God's part begins in the process, not whether man is sinful and fully deserving of Hell (which both sides fully agree upon).

Now granted, I've heard the accusation of folks like Dr. Norm Geisler who portray God in the Calvinist's view of playing a cosmic game of "duck-duck-damn". My response to that is that it doesn't take a "positive" action on the part of God for man to rebel and go to Hell. Indeed, it's the all-consuming desire of our hearts outside of Christ, and were it not for the common restraining grace of God, you'd find an Adolf Hitler in every home. God's role in the Calvinist's understanding is not that man is assumed to eventually find his way to God, except God cackles with glee and says "No you don't!! *punt*" Rather The Calvinist understands Scripture to say that all mankind is wicked and that all would perish were it not for God saying to some (in essence) "You have done nothing but rebel, yet I will show mercy upon you and call you my child, you who have willfully been my enemies."
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:05 am

The problem is God bestowing mercy upon and saving "some", not all. Most Calvinists I've met have told me that God's election selection is a total mystery to the human mind. How could, or perhaps more appropriately, why would, someone gladly conclude that one facet of God's nature is so shrouded in mystery as to be unknowable to the human mind, yet have no qualms about adopting elaborate, dogmatic perceptions of other facets of God's nature?
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PostSubject: Re: Calvinism   Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:41 am

Humans never make choices that do indeed impose affliction and strife totally randomly of course.

If you do not follow God and want to do whatever you want, you are at the mercy of the world and the crap that wants to swallow you up.

I do not blame God for the things that happened to me or those around me. We have free will and opportunities to make different choices... I had opportunities to make other decisions and I waved them on in choice of making EVERYTHING based on my wants.

No wonder I ended up darn well depressed and jaded... how the heck can anyone blame God for anything if they do not believe in Him or what He has said?,,, so whats to be angry about.

Your in charge of your life now, aren't you?.

..........

God says simply : follow me, or do not follow me.

If you do not wish to follow any concept of Christianity and do not believe in God.. you do not believe in a heaven or a hell, so what is to worry about?

If you care man about finding out truth... then figure out your own salvation without delving in Calvinism stuff etc..... its monstrously confusing if you do not know who you are and what you are in Christ.

I have strong faith, but absolutely none of it is due to Calvinism or whatever, I know some of my beliefs would fit in with that type of doctrine, but alot doesn't. Not bagging out Calvinism, just stating something aye.

Their is freedom in Christ.. not all this horrible condemnation and confusion. He guides us and loves us... I know this mate... I can tell, you don't particularly dig life or yourself.. Scuse me if I'm getting to personal or too forward... I do deeply care for you and want you be content.

Just reach out and put it out there, with some sort of prayer, without unrealistic expectations and chill attitude.

Answers happen when we do not crowd every moment with so much noise, conflicting thoughts and views.
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