LastFirstborn wrote:

Well, if I were a daddy, I wouldn't punish my spawn with unthinkable suffering forever. That's just me.

The thing is, God doesn't do that. We do that do ourselves with sin. The crime is the punishment and the punishment is the crime. Hell is what we do to ourselves rejecting God, not God doing anything to us.

LastFirstborn wrote:

I know I would sentence my creations to suffer in flames for eternity if they refused to worship me. That's love! Not.

I suffer from living on earth, and I wouldn't if humanism and society's idiocy didn't cause so many problems.

To me, I see it as this way: Hell is a far more severe version of Earth. It is the attitudes of those on earth, encompassed and built upon as a foundation.

Our God is the God of transcending earthly expectations... that is to mean that we don't serve earthly masters (though, to a point, we must cooperate with authority). God has been reaching out to us since our creation, but our race is a deviant one.

I see it as this... God is a just entity to serve, and He has our best interests in mind. He is like a parent that tries so hard to raise his children; and, like children, we try so hard to have our own way. And, like most kids who end up getting their own way, we think we are satisfying our every need and desire whilst simultaneously we end up destroying good opportunities for ourselves.

Satan is the one kid who tries to encourage this deviant behavior. He's the kid at your high school encouraging kids to go shoot up with him after school. His offer sounds like it would be freeing and satisfying, but of course it contradicts what your father has taught you.

So, what happens is that for thousands of years, people have been taking the deviant route. And look where it gets them. Our society has notably regressed since the earliest times, not technologically, but logically. We choose the earthly way and beat around the bush of truth, just to say we have our own answers and we run our own show.

So, Satan takes people for his own. He influences all the kids after school to join his gang. What is a parent to do after their child moves out into the world and abandons the ways he or she was brought up? After years of rebuking, to no avail.

Sure, God sends people to Hell... but there's a lot more to that. People send themselves to Hell just as equally. We all have the chance. Our God is said to be without fallacy, and a God without fallacy is worthy enough to be worshiped. But instead our race chooses to worship every fallible and antithetical thing. God forgives and forgives us, but after a lifetime of being forgiven, yet still showing disavowal for God's ways, there is little left to do.

God offers the alternative route to Hell all our lives. If we don't take His offer, there is only one route left to take. That's our decision; encouraged to take the opposite way by Satan. Satan is a being of hedonism, but not rationale. If we abandon rationale for hedonism, we choose our own fate.

ELAN wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

I know I would sentence my creations to suffer in flames for eternity if they refused to worship me. That's love! Not.

I suffer from living on earth, and I wouldn't if humanism and society's idiocy didn't cause so many problems.

To me, I see it as this way: Hell is a far more severe version of Earth. It is the attitudes of those on earth, encompassed and built upon as a foundation.

Our God is the God of transcending earthly expectations... that is to mean that we don't serve earthly masters (though, to a point, we must cooperate with authority). God has been reaching out to us since our creation, but our race is a deviant one.

I see it as this... God is a just entity to serve, and He has our best interests in mind. He is like a parent that tries so hard to raise his children; and, like children, we try so hard to have our own way. And, like most kids who end up getting their own way, we think we are satisfying our every need and desire whilst simultaneously we end up destroying good opportunities for ourselves.

Satan is the one kid who tries to encourage this deviant behavior. He's the kid at your high school encouraging kids to go shoot up with him after school. His offer sounds like it would be freeing and satisfying, but of course it contradicts what your father has taught you.

So, what happens is that for thousands of years, people have been taking the deviant route. And look where it gets them. Our society has notably regressed since the earliest times, not technologically, but logically. We choose the earthly way and beat around the bush of truth, just to say we have our own answers and we run our own show.

So, Satan takes people for his own. He influences all the kids after school to join his gang. What is a parent to do after their child moves out into the world and abandons the ways he or she was brought up? After years of rebuking, to no avail.

Sure, God sends people to Hell... but there's a lot more to that. People send themselves to Hell just as equally. We all have the chance. Our God is said to be without fallacy, and a God without fallacy is worthy enough to be worshiped. But instead our race chooses to worship every fallible and antithetical thing. God forgives and forgives us, but after a lifetime of being forgiven, yet still showing disavowal for God's ways, there is little left to do.

God offers the alternative route to Hell all our lives. If we don't take His offer, there is only one route left to take. That's our decision; encouraged to take the opposite way by Satan. Satan is a being of hedonism, but not rationale. If we abandon rationale for hedonism, we choose our own fate.

Yes, this

Mark wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

Well, if I were a daddy, I wouldn't punish my spawn with unthinkable suffering forever. That's just me.

The thing is, God doesn't do that. We do that do ourselves with sin. The crime is the punishment and the punishment is the crime. Hell is what we do to ourselves rejecting God, not God doing anything to us.

True; if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. And actually, it's not even like that... it's like a prison guard trying to keep a kid OUT of jail, yet the kid keeps getting in trouble and eventually just jumps into the cell himself.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

I've never seen a Christian save a man yet. I've only seen Christ the Lord.. acting through men.. save other men.

Maybe that is because Christians did not save themselves and cannot even save themselves..hm...

That's the only way it works.

But yeah, I forgot to give my two cents on the video.... as Bryne said earlier, I get what they're trying to do, but the 'guilt trip' aesthetic probably would not be the best to show to a nonbeliever. As Voldemort said, tugging on emotions is not the best and most rational way to save someone.

ELAN wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

I've never seen a Christian save a man yet. I've only seen Christ the Lord.. acting through men.. save other men.

Maybe that is because Christians did not save themselves and cannot even save themselves..hm...

That's the only way it works.

But yeah, I forgot to give my two cents on the video.... as Bryne said earlier, I get what they're trying to do, but the 'guilt trip' aesthetic probably would not be the best to show to a nonbeliever. As Voldemort said, tugging on emotions is not the best and most rational way to save someone.

It's not meant to be shown to non-beleivers though

I was actually referring to the guilt trip that it places on believers.

I went to a conference that our church sponsored a few years ago called "Conversations in Grace". It was all about the importance of proclaiming the Gospel to our friends and neighbors. I totally get the need to encourage people to share their faith, and even instill a sense of urgency about the matter. I came out to that two day conference with a profound sense of the need to share my faith, and a sincere desire to do so. However, this was accomplished without scare tactics, guilt trips, speculations about hell, or any such manipulative methods to get us to do something. I just don't think this approach is necessary or desirable.

vaterflaumig wrote:

Death over Life wrote:

Apparantly, you never read when I wrote this to Metl:

Quote :

After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.

and

Quote :

It was the words of Jesus Christ himself: I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. So if you want to get technical, Christianity is about Christ himself. This is where it begins and ends, with Christ, not with reward or punishment or life or death. I hope you understand what I meant here.

I'm not denying God punishing people because he does. I'm informing that simply eternally punishing people doesn't end at eternally punishing people for those who reject God. I was also implying that I empathize with LastFirstborn's claims.

Damn, I try to be informative and helpful instead of ranting and all people do is twist things out of context to try and combat me instead.

Ya sorry, I did sound like I was kind of attacking you.
This is a bit of a touchy subject with me as of late so I took it too far.

It is understandable. I accept your apology and I apologize for sounding harsh. It is just the one and only time I try to be helpful instead of my onslaughts of rants, and then I get bitten back where I felt it wasn’t needed. That is the crux of my last sentence. Especially since I expect people to read the entire threads where I had already dealt with said problem. It isn’t your fault per say, but I think we all need to be more civil and Biblical and stop going on emotions so much. In a way, this thread does go with the emotions just like the video.

By the end of the night, it is a simplistic A causes B to happen.

To Metl: I know I didn’t reply to your last post, but once again, 2nd Peter is NOT Greek Mythology. If you do research on Christianity and research on Mythology, you will notice very great similarities. Also, stop going straight to the English for the answers, check out the original manuscripts. This is where I’m getting my Tartaros, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc.

And once again, due to popular tradition, the Lake of Fire and it’s qualities are thrown out the window and is called “Hell” once again. I shall quote something even Gaahl said on his own documentary that does go here. It goes something like this: 4 or 5 stories have become twisted and fused into 1 giant fairytale. For the context of that from Gaahl, he was speaking about the story of him going to school with 1 other person, then when they graduated, the 1 other person committed suicide. But the words he spoken definitely apply here.

The Traditional view of Hell is 1 giant fairy tale comprised of 4 or 5 different Truths all randomly lumped together. The way the English language works is not the way the Greek or Hebrew (I forgot which one specifically. I think it was the Greek though) language works. This is why despite the constant claims of this came from mythology I still speak of it as Truth. On the constant Mythology accusations for the words that doesn’t = Hell, the only thing I can say then, is that The Holy Bible is nothing but Mythology and the Holy Bible is not different than all the other Pagan Faiths. There are specific reasons why what was Written was what was Written. To simply accuse the Scriptures of being Mythology and then turn around and call it all Hell, is doing a great disservice to what is supposed to be Sacred. It does what the Scriptures say NOT to do, add or take away from it to create a new fallacy.

Yes, wikipedia can be edited by anybody, so thus it is not reliable enough, but that is where the Original Manuscripts come in. I still quote BIBLE SCRIPTURE, and yet IT is disregarded because it has similarities to Mythology. Sorry, but that isn’t how you read or interpret Scriptures.

Quote :

e]To Metl: I know I didn’t reply to your last post, but once again, 2nd Peter is NOT Greek Mythology. If you do research on Christianity and research on Mythology, you will notice very great similarities. Also, stop going straight to the English for the answers, check out the original manuscripts. This is where I’m getting my Tartaros, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc.

Never said it was, but by the source you showed me, that is what the facts were, now obviously it is probably wrong, by how was I suppose to know this?

Quote :

And once again, due to popular tradition, the Lake of Fire and it’s qualities are thrown out the window and is called “Hell” once again. I shall quote something even Gaahl said on his own documentary that does go here. It goes something like this: 4 or 5 stories have become twisted and fused into 1 giant fairytale. For the context of that from Gaahl, he was speaking about the story of him going to school with 1 other person, then when they graduated, the 1 other person committed suicide. But the words he spoken definitely apply here.

The Traditional view of Hell is 1 giant fairy tale comprised of 4 or 5 different Truths all randomly lumped together. The way the English language works is not the way the Greek or Hebrew (I forgot which one specifically. I think it was the Greek though) language works. This is why despite the constant claims of this came from mythology I still speak of it as Truth. On the constant Mythology accusations for the words that doesn’t = Hell, the only thing I can say then, is that The Holy Bible is nothing but Mythology and the Holy Bible is not different than all the other Pagan Faiths. There are specific reasons why what was Written was what was Written. To simply accuse the Scriptures of being Mythology and then turn around and call it all Hell, is doing a great disservice to what is supposed to be Sacred. It does what the Scriptures say NOT to do, add or take away from it to create a new fallacy.

But was there anyhing really added? Once again I don't think so, Tartorus sheoul, etc. are all different names for Hell, maybe even different factions and purposes for Hell, but I still stand by my beleif that there are definitely not multiple places spread out somewhere in another dimension

Quote :

Yes, wikipedia can be edited by anybody, so thus it is not reliable enough, but that is where the Original Manuscripts come in. I still quote BIBLE SCRIPTURE, and yet IT is disregarded because it has similarities to Mythology. Sorry, but that isn’t how you read or interpret Scriptures.

This is not how I interpreted your scripture, what I said is your idea of Tartorus may be similar to greek mythology , and maybe not the way Peter thought it to be like, acccording to the link you provided, now is that true, I don't know, once again you provided a link and that's what it showed. Now my idea of Tartous is very different from yours obviously, and also alot different than the idea provided by Greek mythology.

Mark wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

Well, if I were a daddy, I wouldn't punish my spawn with unthinkable suffering forever. That's just me.

The thing is, God doesn't do that. We do that do ourselves with sin. The crime is the punishment and the punishment is the crime. Hell is what we do to ourselves rejecting God, not God doing anything to us.

Do you have anything from the Bible to support this idea?

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Never said it was, but by the source you showed me, that is what the facts were, now obviously it is probably wrong, by how was I suppose to know this?

The term "Tartarus" is found only once in the Bible, at 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment." It would seem to be a synonym of the "Abyss". In Luke 8:31, the Legion of demons begs Jesus not to send them to the Abyss. "The Beast" of Revelation, will come up out of the Abyss (Revelation 11:7; 17:. Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years (Revelation 20:3).

The term "Hades" appears in the religious texts of New Testament times as a translation of the Old Testament Sheol.

In most English Bibles, the word Tartarus is simply translated as Hell, even though early Christian writers usually used the term Gehenna, the Hinnom Valley, to mean hell. In some sense, this dark place matches the term's traditional meaning, a dark pit in which the Supreme God has cast his spirit enemies. However, it is separate from the Lake of Fire, which is the place of eternal fiery punishment that most people think of when they think of "Hell". This is evidenced in Revelation 20, where Satan is released from the Abyss (v. 3) and later thrown in the "Lake of Burning Sulfur" (v. 10), where he will be "tormented day and night forever and ever".

The Book of Enoch, chapter XX, verse 2 specifically states that Tartarus is the place in which the angels who cohabited with women in Genesis 6 are to be reserved for judgment.[2]

There ya go. If you want to discuss more on that, let us dwell then.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

But was there anyhing really added? Once again I don't think so, Tartorus sheoul, etc. are all different names for Hell, maybe even different factions and purposes for Hell, but I still stand by my beleif that there are definitely not multiple places spread out somewhere in another dimension

Okay then. If that is your belief, than let me test that. Okay, we have the Traditional Heaven and Hell. Now, we do agree that the Lake of Fire is it's own place, so that makes 3 places. Now, all this talk of Hell and nothing of the Heavenly. Because Christ's blood was shed almost 2000 years ago, there was no where for the saved at the time. So did they all go to Hell? Obvious answer is no, they went to Abraham's Bosom instead. So for the spirituality, that would make at least 4 different places in the afterlife. Yes, we may only see 1 or 2 of them depending on where you stand with God, but just because we don't go there ourselves doesn't mean it isn't real. Trust me, there are more than those 4 which is why we are discussing this.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

This is not how I interpreted your scripture, what I said is your idea of Tartorus may be similar to greek mythology , and maybe not the way Peter thought it to be like, acccording to the link you provided, now is that true, I don't know, once again you provided a link and that's what it showed. Now my idea of Tartous is very different from yours obviously, and also alot different than the idea provided by Greek mythology.

Okay misunderstanding on my part. Now, whether similar or not, does it make it any more or less True? You say not the way Peter thought it to be like, but even he shows the same definition. Even then, look at Abyss in Revelation. That is where the anti-Christ or Satan or whomever is thrown into for a thousand years. Once again, notice how they are ALL dealing with ONLY fallen angels. Even in Luke, the fallen angels beg Jesus not to throw them into the Abyss. Tartaros and Abyss are the same that we can agree on. Tartarus and Hell being very similar that we can agree on. Tartarus and Hell being the exact same thing in essence that we can agree on, but they are not the same place. There is no "the" Hell, it is "a" Hell.

As for the subject before that, we have 4 places atm: Heaven, Abraham's Bosom, Hell, Lake of Fire. We still disagree on Tartarus, but even then, let us go to Sheol for something:

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole"), in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "grave", or "pit"[1]. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives.

English translations of the Hebrew scriptures have variously rendered the word sheol as "hell"[2] or "the grave".[3]

So, according to Ecclesiastes and Job, EVERYBODY, saved or not, is going to Sheol. That would make it 5 places at least.

Gehenna, we can discuss that later, but it seems that Hell and Gehenaa being the same we can agree on.

Hades, for that one, I shall give this off instead (yes off of wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Oh, my gosh, that was seriously the funniest thing I have seen all day.

First off, yeah, that's just liek those videos my private school used to show us. A scare tactic, nothing more.

Anyway, I LOVEd this! The genaric "creepy music" intro, complete with the Star Wars style intro! Then when he started talking about what they were doing to him, It was like an old radio show.

"Oh, no, they're taking me into the fire!! I can feel it bruning me!! I can smell it! Oh, how bad it smells!! OWW!OOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!!!! Oh, it burns so bad! Oh, how perditions flames scorch my skin to cinders!! Wait, what's that? No, no, do't do that! Oh no, he's got a pitch fork! He's aiming for my stomach! AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! He stabbed me! He stabbed me right in the gut! I can see my intestines!! I don't rememebr eating corn!! Oh, I can't convey how horrible this is! Oh, NO! Now he's skewering me with a spit-roaster!! At least he left my hand free so I can write this! Wait, what are you doing? Why are you taking your pants of?! No, don't get behind me! No, no...NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!"

*dramatic organ flare*

"Who Knows what evils lurk in the hearts of men?! The Jesus knows. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!"

sig'd

..though it doesn't appear to be working very well

Well since this thread has been resurrected, I shall go on to add that I still think the popular view of Hell is Trash, but I also no longer believe in the Traditional views of Heaven neither. Just about all the afterlife preaching I've heard is a lie, but Revelation really shines a light on the Truth of the afterlife.

This thread is hilarious.

Well, that video was a bunch of foolishness...

Peace,

Jeff

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Within the first 30 seconds I see a huge theological fallacy.. flames of torment and hell are two different events and places.

Why is such ignorance allowed to exist in so many Christian religious sects?

THISTHISTHISTHIS!



This video sucks.
And sounds like it's about Purgatory.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

You cannot love one thing without hating everything that goes against it and/or destroys it.
If you love children, you have to hate abortion, if you love Jews, you
have to hate the holocaust. God loves holiness, which means He has to
hate unholiness (i.e. sin). If you say you don't have to, then you don't
love it.

If you had two sons and one of them destroyed/killed the other, would you hate him?

againsttheantichrist wrote:

God will not be sad when He condemns someone, He will be in absolutely fury when someone steps before Him who has rebelled against Him in their entire life. Hell is the pure wrath of God.

If you were a judge in a courtroom, and someone came before you who murdered your entire family on his/her sentencing appearance, there is absolutely no possibility you will be sad at them. You'll want to tear them limb for limb. And don't tell me otherwise, you have a human nature. A nature to rebel against God, a nature about self, and a nature that only cares about ones closest to you. If someone were to happen to the ones closest to you, and you found the person that did it, I would not be surprised if you yourself were indicted on murder charges.

Sorry but I will tell you otherwise, I would not tear him from limb to limb however self righteous that sounds. I really pity maniacs and criminals. I am not saying they should be let off in any way, but I still feel sad for them, what a horrible state one must be in to commit such atrocities. I like how BryneVampyr summed it up.

Yes, tearing him lib from limb is human nature. FALLEN human nature. God feels compassion for everyone who is suffering and God wants all people to be saved.

As for the video I agree with most that its a silly scare tactic guilt trip WHOEVER its aimed at, showing a Hollywood style image of hell. The soul can't suffer physical pain. It suffers from separation from God. That's more than enough.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Quote :

There is no end to eternity.

not to get off on a tangent.. but... end and beginnings are not relevant in "eternity" You are trying to define NON TIME with Time concept...NO END.

Also.. eternity and forever cam ne seen as two entirely differnet things... just food for thought.

I am one of those strange Chistians who doesn't worry about evangelising.. because he has witnessed that GOd does the evangelising through people... and when people try to do it of their leading and their own direction... it actually seems to do more harm than good

Same here brother

There IS a reason I don't really bother with GodTube...

Peace,

Jeff

I think this is the most Biblical video ever released.