I've never seen a Christian save a man yet. I've only seen Christ the Lord.. acting through men.. save other men.

Maybe that is because Christians did not save themselves and cannot even save themselves..hm...

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Please watch this. WARNING: it's a bit disturbing




http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=dfd8fde4cec5bddc9184

If it weren't for the fact that I already know this is full of false prophecy, I would have de-converted to Satanism due to as others have said, this paints God as an evil dictator where Satan is the righteous opponent(s) who tried to save us from tyranny.

I'm sorry, but this is something every Christian should NOT watch. What else has been said before about this?

Yes I get what the message is, and this is the completely wrong way to get the message across.

This is one reason why I despise Christianity. Why must Christianity resort to fear tactics and emotion driven evangelism when it is supposed to be simply informing as Christ did? This not only hinders the Gospel of Christ, but it hinders the Christian God and makes the Christian God to be nothing more or less than a fabrication of emotions.

There is 1 ultimate Truth I will say that debunks the entire video. God, is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment.

I know I am probably finished, but if anyone has anything else they wish to know on my views on this, let me know.

Death over Life wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Please watch this. WARNING: it's a bit disturbing




http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=dfd8fde4cec5bddc9184

If it weren't for the fact that I already know this is full of false prophecy, I would have de-converted to Satanism due to as others have said, this paints God as an evil dictator where Satan is the righteous opponent(s) who tried to save us from tyranny.

I'm sorry, but this is something every Christian should NOT watch. What else has been said before about this?

Yes I get what the message is, and this is the completely wrong way to get the message across.

This is one reason why I despise Christianity. Why must Christianity resort to fear tactics and emotion driven evangelism when it is supposed to be simply informing as Christ did? This not only hinders the Gospel of Christ, but it hinders the Christian God and makes the Christian God to be nothing more or less than a fabrication of emotions.

There is 1 ultimate Truth I will say that debunks the entire video. God, is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment.

I know I am probably finished, but if anyone has anything else they wish to know on my views on this, let me know.

Why do I have to explain this over and over again. Ok I will again. God is loving, God will be sad whenever he has to send soemone to Hell. That video in no way tried to make him look like something else. God wasn't even talked about in the video except when asked why have you never told me about Jesus. Of course people will be in torment when they go to Hell, thats completely found in the bible. This video is not meant to scare people into coming to Christ. This video isnt even directed to lost people. This video is about making us think what would our friends go through, if we never told them about Jesus. It is here to make us think. I see nothing but the truth and the truth being shown in a powerful awesoem way with this video.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Why do I have to explain this over and over again. Ok I will again. God is loving, God will be sad whenever he has to send soemone to Hell. That video in no way tried to make him look like something else. God wasn't even talked about in the video except when asked why have you never told me about Jesus. Of course people will be in torment when they go to Hell, thats completely found in the bible. This video is not meant to scare people into coming to Christ. This video isnt even directed to lost people. This video is about making us think what would our friends go through, if we never told them about Jesus. It is here to make us think. I see nothing but the truth and the truth being shown in a powerful awesoem way with this video.

Let me begin, when you say Hell, do you mean the video? If so, then false. Today's view of Hell is a fusion of Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, and Tartaros(Tartarus). Tartaros is the "Hell" dedicated specifically for the fallen angels, so I don't see where they will be with us like that. Now, Hell and death are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the end, not Hell. The end, is as a post in there stated, death as in permanent sleep.

Alright, there is pain and torment, that I agree with. However, it is not the hollywood style that this video shown. Also, it really portrays Hell as something it is not. Also, as the video showed, the Demons WILL NOT be tormenting the unbelievers for being against the very God they themselves are against. That is fallacy.

It could be truth, if eternal forever everlasting torment were true. God is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment. This video makes God to reward those for following Christ and punish those for not following Him, which is NOT what Christ or Christianity is about.

It doesn't make you think because it is filled with fallacy. If that video is nothing but Truth, then Christianity is a lie. Simple as that.

Death over Life wrote:

Let me begin, when you say Hell, do you mean the video? If so, then false. Today's view of Hell is a fusion of Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, and Tartaros(Tartarus). Tartaros is the "Hell" dedicated specifically for the fallen angels, so I don't see where they will be with us like that. Now, Hell and death are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the end, not Hell. The end, is as a post in there stated, death as in permanent sleep.

Can you give biblical evidence to support how the Hell of the bible is different than the Hell in this video?

Quote :

Alright, there is pain and torment, that I agree with. However, it is not the hollywood style that this video shown. Also, it really portrays Hell as something it is not.

Once again, provide biblical evidence of this please.

Quote :

Also, as the video showed, the Demons WILL NOT be tormenting the unbelievers for being against the very God they themselves are against. That is fallacy.

This is hard to say, I don't personally think the Demons are in Hell right now, so you might be right on that, but then again, does there have to be soem sort of being in Hell living within the midst of the souls there? I don't know. I don't really think it matters that much.

Quote :

It could be truth, if eternal forever everlasting torment were true.

Whoah, whoah whoah, are you implying that a person who dies without god isnt cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity? I hope that's not what you are trying to say.

Quote :

God is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment. This video makes God to reward those for following Christ and punish those for not following Him, which is NOT what Christ or Christianity is about.

Sure thats not the essence of Christianity. Christianity is about having a relationship with god the Father and living out the truth. But: Proverbs 25:22, Matthew 5:12, Matthew 6:4, Luke 6:23, Revelations 22:12, Jude 1:7, Matthew 25:46

Quote :

It doesn't make you think because it is filled with fallacy. If that video is nothing but Truth, then Christianity is a lie. Simple as that.

I still see no fallacy at all in this video. But I thank you Death Over Life for these intelligent answers, I like conversations like this.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Death over Life wrote:

Let me begin, when you say Hell, do you mean the video? If so, then false. Today's view of Hell is a fusion of Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, and Tartaros(Tartarus). Tartaros is the "Hell" dedicated specifically for the fallen angels, so I don't see where they will be with us like that. Now, Hell and death are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the end, not Hell. The end, is as a post in there stated, death as in permanent sleep.

Can you give biblical evidence to support how the Hell of the bible is different than the Hell in this video?

Simply put: Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That verse right there disproves Hell is eternal as the video has shown.

Then on Tartaros, even a simplistic wikipedia has revealed that to me. It was however solidified by other sources, that atm I'm still researching on.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaros

If you refuse the article, then here is the verse: 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

As for the rest, I am not denying hell being a place of torment, as scriptures did say where there will be gnashing of teeth. However, many places have hell in place of:
Sheol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
Gehenna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

And you already know of the Lake of Fire. I already posted above about Tartaros.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Alright, there is pain and torment, that I agree with. However, it is not the hollywood style that this video shown. Also, it really portrays Hell as something it is not.Once again, provide biblical evidence of this please.

I think the above shall suffice for this.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Also, as the video showed, the Demons WILL NOT be tormenting the unbelievers for being against the very God they themselves are against. That is fallacy.
This is hard to say, I don't personally think the Demons are in Hell right now, so you might be right on that, but then again, does there have to be soem sort of being in Hell living within the midst of the souls there? I don't know. I don't really think it matters that much.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

It could be truth, if eternal forever everlasting torment were true.Whoah, whoah whoah, are you implying that a person who dies without god isnt cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity? I hope that's not what you are trying to say.

You are correct, that isn't what I'm saying. I am not saying you get out of the Lake of Fire once cast in. I am saying that you will not be eternally tormented in pain forever. The Lake of Fire destroys and swallows up death and Hell so they no longer exist. This is how we obtain true immortality. This goes back to Christ destroying death. But the Lake of Fire is where death will no longer exists. What most Christians will not teach about it though is, where that happens to death, the exact same fate is that of Hell, which consists of the lost souls if Hell is the correct word for this verse. So, when Hell is destroyed where it no longer exists, so will all those souls that dwell in it be, just like death. That Revelation text put it plain and clear from my eyes.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

God is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment. This video makes God to reward those for following Christ and punish those for not following Him, which is NOT what Christ or Christianity is about.Sure thats not the essence of Christianity. Christianity is about having a relationship with god the Father and living out the truth. But: Proverbs 25:22, Matthew 5:12, Matthew 6:4, Luke 6:23, Revelations 22:12, Jude 1:7, Matthew 25:46

After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :

It doesn't make you think because it is filled with fallacy. If that video is nothing but Truth, then Christianity is a lie. Simple as that.

I still see no fallacy at all in this video. But I thank you Death Over Life for these intelligent answers, I like conversations like this.

Anytime Metl. I hope these links and my views help inform you and/or reveal something that you may have never seen or thought of.

Death over Life wrote:

biblical evidence to support how the Hell of the bible is different than the Hell in this video?

Simply put: Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

well yeah I agree there, it's the lake of fire that is eternal, i thought you mean that Hell was diffenrent by how it is like.

Quote :

Then on Tartaros, even a simplistic wikipedia has revealed that to me. It was however solidified by other sources, that atm I'm still researching on.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaros

If you refuse the article, then here is the verse: 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

Ok according to that article, your idea of this Tartorus comes form Greekk mythology, automatically lessening its credinility to me. Now how can you prove that Tartarus is jsut not another name in Hell. There are numerous different things in the bible that are given multple names.

Quote :

As for the rest, I am not denying hell being a place of torment, as scriptures did say where there will be gnashing of teeth. However, many places have hell in place of:
Sheol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
Gehenna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

I would just give the same answer I did about Tartaros

Quote :

You are correct, that isn't what I'm saying. I am not saying you get out of the Lake of Fire once cast in. I am saying that you will not be eternally tormented in pain forever. The Lake of Fire destroys and swallows up death and Hell so they no longer exist. This is how we obtain true immortality. This goes back to Christ destroying death. But the Lake of Fire is where death will no longer exists. What most Christians will not teach about it though is, where that happens to death, the exact same fate is that of Hell, which consists of the lost souls if Hell is the correct word for this verse. So, when Hell is destroyed where it no longer exists, so will all those souls that dwell in it be, just like death. That Revelation text put it plain and clear from my eyes.

Ok I see you were getting at here. Yeah I agree it's the Lake of Fire that is Eternal.

Quote :

After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.

I'm not sure I understand the last 2 sentences in this paragraph, can you please elaborate?

Quote :

Anytime Metl. I hope these links and my views help inform you and/or reveal something that you may have never seen or thought of.

you are correct, I haven't heard this view before until today, neither do I agree with it, but it is an interesting conversation.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Death over Life wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Please watch this. WARNING: it's a bit disturbing




http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=dfd8fde4cec5bddc9184

If it weren't for the fact that I already know this is full of false prophecy, I would have de-converted to Satanism due to as others have said, this paints God as an evil dictator where Satan is the righteous opponent(s) who tried to save us from tyranny.

I'm sorry, but this is something every Christian should NOT watch. What else has been said before about this?

Yes I get what the message is, and this is the completely wrong way to get the message across.

This is one reason why I despise Christianity. Why must Christianity resort to fear tactics and emotion driven evangelism when it is supposed to be simply informing as Christ did? This not only hinders the Gospel of Christ, but it hinders the Christian God and makes the Christian God to be nothing more or less than a fabrication of emotions.

There is 1 ultimate Truth I will say that debunks the entire video. God, is a God of LIFE and DEATH, NOT reward and punishment.

I know I am probably finished, but if anyone has anything else they wish to know on my views on this, let me know.

Why do I have to explain this over and over again. Ok I will again. God is loving, God will be sad whenever he has to send soemone to Hell. That video in no way tried to make him look like something else. God wasn't even talked about in the video except when asked why have you never told me about Jesus. Of course people will be in torment when they go to Hell, thats completely found in the bible. This video is not meant to scare people into coming to Christ. This video isnt even directed to lost people. This video is about making us think what would our friends go through, if we never told them about Jesus. It is here to make us think. I see nothing but the truth and the truth being shown in a powerful awesoem way with this video.

Did it not say "'Vengeance will be Mine', saids the Lord"?

God will not be sad when He condemns someone, He will be in absolutely fury when someone steps before Him who has rebelled against Him in their entire life. Hell is the pure wrath of God.

If you were a judge in a courtroom, and someone came before you who murdered your entire family on his/her sentencing appearance, there is absolutely no possibility you will be sad at them. You'll want to tear them limb for limb. And don't tell me otherwise, you have a human nature. A nature to rebel against God, a nature about self, and a nature that only cares about ones closest to you. If someone were to happen to the ones closest to you, and you found the person that did it, I would not be surprised if you yourself were indicted on murder charges.

Matt, I really encourage you to actually research before trying to debate on the bible. It does not appear you are abiding by historical and exegetical Christianity, but rather by what it says. That's no different than judging a book by its cover. If you want the guide to life in God, the Bible is all you need, but if you want to understand that guide, the one bible is not going to cut it.

Someone who didn't know about God is equivalent to a murderer?

LastFirstborn wrote:

Someone who didn't know about God is equivalent to a murderer?

Nope. Anyone who says that proves that they do not understand the bible.

God is not a murderer. He's an all-powerful Being who does nothing but righteousness.

We don't want God, at all. Unless the Lord sanctifies us, we never will. God is merely granting what we want if we get sent to Hell. If we don't want Him, we'll be separated from Him in every shape and form except His wrath.

And don't even think about pulling out the assisted-suicide "counterargument". That is not the same thing.

So everyone who has never had any exposure to Christianity wants to go to hell? Not seeing the logic here.

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell
secondly an all powerful inhuman god shouldnt have "human tendencies" of wrath and anger
also if people who didnt know about god went to hell then all the ancient hindus went to hell because they have been around 50,000 years whilst god never showed up till some 6000 years ago
what an evil sick midned god what gives him the right to show up late and let all those people go to hell?

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Did it not say "'Vengeance will be Mine', saids the Lord"?

Ahh, Bryan you didn't read the whole verse there did you. In that same verse he is talking to us. He is saying do not seek revenge for yourselves, but leave it to me. He is basically saying the evil that has been done to you, do not make it your job to make justice for it, but I will make justice. Also in that verse, I don't see anything where he is necessarily talking about Hell. It could be, or he could be talking about the "Reap what you sow" idea that god presents in the bible. Now is God's vengeance like ours? No, not necessarily, you are trying to make God seem like us 100% in his characteristics. That can be very dangerous. I find it kind of ironic that you took this verse form a section about loveing people.

Quote :

God will not be sad when He condemns someone, He will be in absolutely fury when someone steps before Him who has rebelled against Him in their entire life. Hell is the pure wrath of God.

You should probably look into this claim more. The bible talks about God's wrath ALOT, but it is always talking about when God had to destroy places like Sodom and gomorrah, or send down the Great Flood, things liek this etc.

Quote :

If you were a judge in a courtroom, and someone came before you who murdered your entire family on his/her sentencing appearance, there is absolutely no possibility you will be sad at them. You'll want to tear them limb for limb. And don't tell me otherwise, you have a human nature. A nature to rebel against God, a nature about self, and a nature that only cares about ones closest to you. If someone were to happen to the ones closest to you, and you found the person that did it, I would not be surprised if you yourself were indicted on murder charges.

Once again, you are trying to give God human nature, this claim is not rooted in scripture at all. And really? I will want to go kill the person? Bryan look at scripture. Matthew 5:38-48.

Quote :

Matt, I really encourage you to actually research before trying to debate on the bible. It does not appear you are abiding by historical and exegetical Christianity, but rather by what it says. That's no different than judging a book by its cover. If you want the guide to life in God, the Bible is all you need, but if you want to understand that guide, the one bible is not going to cut it.

You tend to say this alot when someone doesn't agree with you theolically. I ask that you do not do this because just if someone has a different view, doesn't mean they can't be right, my claims are just as rooted in scripture if not more than yours.

wizardovmetal wrote:

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell

true, but in a way he does, lemme explain. People who go to Hell, really insisted on going there. If soemone refuses god and jsut wants to be left alone by him, God is simply granting there wish. People will realize though they made a terrible choice and desire in the end though.

LastFirstborn wrote:

So everyone who has never had any exposure to Christianity wants to go to hell? Not seeing the logic here.

god makes sure everyone has the chance to hear the truth at soem point in their life. Theres verses to back this up too.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Did it not say "'Vengeance will be Mine', saids the Lord"?

Ahh, Bryan you didn't read the whole verse there did you. In that same verse he is talking to us. He is saying do not seek revenge for yourselves, but leave it to me. He is basically saying the evil that has been done to you, do not make it your job to make justice for it, but I will make justice. Also in that verse, I don't see anything where he is necessarily talking about Hell. It could be, or he could be talking about the "Reap what you sow" idea that god presents in the bible. Now is God's vengeance like ours? No, not necessarily, you are trying to make God seem like us 100% in his characteristics. That can be very dangerous. I find it kind of ironic that you took this verse form a section about loveing people.

Quote :

God will not be sad when He condemns someone, He will be in absolutely fury when someone steps before Him who has rebelled against Him in their entire life. Hell is the pure wrath of God.You should probably look into this claim more. The bible talks about God's wrath ALOT, but it is always talking about when God had to destroy places like Sodom and gomorrah, or send down the Great Flood, things liek this etc.

Quote :

If you were a judge in a courtroom, and someone came before you who murdered your entire family on his/her sentencing appearance, there is absolutely no possibility you will be sad at them. You'll want to tear them limb for limb. And don't tell me otherwise, you have a human nature. A nature to rebel against God, a nature about self, and a nature that only cares about ones closest to you. If someone were to happen to the ones closest to you, and you found the person that did it, I would not be surprised if you yourself were indicted on murder charges.

Once again, you are trying to give God human nature, this claim is not rooted in scripture at all. And really? I will want to go kill the person? Bryan look at scripture. Matthew 5:38-48.

Quote :

Matt, I really encourage you to actually research before trying to debate on the bible. It does not appear you are abiding by historical and exegetical Christianity, but rather by what it says. That's no different than judging a book by its cover. If you want the guide to life in God, the Bible is all you need, but if you want to understand that guide, the one bible is not going to cut it.

You tend to say this alot when someone doesn't agree with you theolically. I ask that you do not do this because just if someone has a different view, doesn't mean they can't be right, my claims are just as rooted in scripture if not more than yours.

Dude, freaking awesome job with this post, it's easily one of the best you've ever written.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

If you were a judge in a courtroom, and someone came before you who murdered your entire family on his/her sentencing appearance, there is absolutely no possibility you will be sad at them. You'll want to tear them limb for limb. And don't tell me otherwise, you have a human nature.

Actually, I will tell you otherwise.

I often feel sad for criminals...even really awful ones like the one you describe. I am not a bleeding heart who thinks we should go easy on them because they had a hard life. I think we should through the book at them...never-the-less, I do feel very sad for them, and if I were the judge, I would still feel sad. I think if there weren't people who felt that way, there would be no prison ministries...


I don't see any reason why God can't feel wrath and also feel compassion. In fact, I am sure that He must, otherwise, Jesus would have never been born. It was His compassion that led to the incarnation. At the end, when compassion is no longer an option, I still think there will be a sadness along with the wrath and justice.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

wizardovmetal wrote:

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell

true, but in a way he does, lemme explain. People who go to Hell, really insisted on going there. If soemone refuses god and jsut wants to be left alone by him, God is simply granting there wish. People will realize though they made a terrible choice and desire in the end though.

MetL nails it.

Mark wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

wizardovmetal wrote:

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell

true, but in a way he does, lemme explain. People who go to Hell, really insisted on going there. If soemone refuses god and jsut wants to be left alone by him, God is simply granting there wish. People will realize though they made a terrible choice and desire in the end though.

MetL nails it.

What about people who have never been exposed to Christianity? How are they "refusing God"?

LastFirstborn wrote:

Mark wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

wizardovmetal wrote:

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell

true, but in a way he does, lemme explain. People who go to Hell, really insisted on going there. If soemone refuses god and jsut wants to be left alone by him, God is simply granting there wish. People will realize though they made a terrible choice and desire in the end though.

MetL nails it.

What about people who have never been exposed to Christianity? How are they "refusing God"?

theres a perfect verse for this that I can't think of off the top of my head, grr, I'll try to find it

"In the end, there are two kinds of people.. Those whom say to God "They will be done" and those to whom God says " alright, have it your way". - CS Lewis

LastFirstborn wrote:

Mark wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

wizardovmetal wrote:

if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell

true, but in a way he does, lemme explain. People who go to Hell, really insisted on going there. If soemone refuses god and jsut wants to be left alone by him, God is simply granting there wish. People will realize though they made a terrible choice and desire in the end though.

MetL nails it.

What about people who have never been exposed to Christianity? How are they "refusing God"?

He is a merciful God... its people that distort and twist Him... truly if you never have been exposed... He knows this and will be fair and just.

^ Yea but I was telling Joey, there was a perfect verse in the bible that imply s that god will make sure everyone gets to hear the truth at least once. I just don't remember it

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

^ Yea but I was telling Joey, there was a perfect verse in the bible that imply s that god will make sure everyone gets to hear the truth at least once. I just don't remember it

How would God make sure that everybody has a chance to learn of Christianity and study the Bible? He doesn't.