MetLHed4GZus wrote:

I may not agree with what joel Osteen does....but I beleive he is still appointed by God to preach...and maybe evewn called to preach what he does...we dont know God....





*now Matt goes and runs and hides )

if he is appointed by God to preach, then why is he not preaching? And if he is called to preach what he does, then why is it contrary to what scripture teaches?

FuneralOath wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

I may not agree with what joel Osteen does....but I beleive he is still appointed by God to preach...and maybe evewn called to preach what he does...we dont know God....





*now Matt goes and runs and hides )

if he is appointed by God to preach, then why is he not preaching? And if he is called to preach what he does, then why is it contrary to what scripture teaches?

honestly..i dont think ive ever heard him preach...though i kinda know what hes about..dont totally agree with him...but I have seen how he ministers to a certain group of people......but thats REALLY hard to explain how.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

FuneralOath wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

I may not agree with what joel Osteen does....but I beleive he is still appointed by God to preach...and maybe evewn called to preach what he does...we dont know God....





*now Matt goes and runs and hides )

if he is appointed by God to preach, then why is he not preaching? And if he is called to preach what he does, then why is it contrary to what scripture teaches?

honestly..i dont think ive ever heard him preach...though i kinda know what hes about..dont totally agree with him...but I have seen how he ministers to a certain group of people......but thats REALLY hard to explain how.

but how is he ministering?

Hero wrote:

Not based on what you like. Based on The Scriptures.
Scriptures tell me I am victorious. Therefore, I am.

John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Maybe I am out to lunch here, but isn't approaching scripture in this way a form of isolated proof texting? Could you not say this way of interpreting scripture is highly individualistic; and it puts the individual Christian at the center? Does this not ignore the fact that most of the bible was written to corporate bodies of people (i.e. churches), not to individuals? I understand we all look for verses that inspire us, but must we not consider the context in which they occur?

trephining wrote:

Hero wrote:

Not based on what you like. Based on The Scriptures.
Scriptures tell me I am victorious. Therefore, I am.

John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Maybe I am out to lunch here, but isn't approaching scripture in this way a form of isolated proof texting? Could you not say this way of interpreting scripture is highly individualistic; and it puts the individual Christian at the center? Does this not ignore the fact that most of the bible was written to corporate bodies of people (i.e. churches), not to individuals? I understand we all look for verses that inspire us, but must we not consider the context in which they occur?

Indeed it is scrupulous eisegesis, as opposed to exegesis and expositionary preaching. He thinks of a topic, and takes verses from the bible out of context to fit his self help motivational style preaching, and ignores key passages and teachings from the Bible - not to mention misuses the greek whenever he mentions it. This is very dishonest hermeneutics and a totally erred approach to teaching scripture and communicating the Christian message.

trephining wrote:

Hero wrote:

Not based on what you like. Based on The Scriptures.
Scriptures tell me I am victorious. Therefore, I am.

John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Maybe I am out to lunch here, but isn't approaching scripture in this way a form of isolated proof texting? Could you not say this way of interpreting scripture is highly individualistic; and it puts the individual Christian at the center? Does this not ignore the fact that most of the bible was written to corporate bodies of people (i.e. churches), not to individuals? I understand we all look for verses that inspire us, but must we not consider the context in which they occur?

what..? I, we, it's the same thing. We are the body of Christ, we are victorious. But some people just don't believe it. And I can't really blame them because they are so much into torment. However, Jesus casted out the demons causing those torments out of people. We aren't called to suffer exactly as Jesus did. So the "Jesus suffered this way, suffer this way aswell" is kinda bs if you ask me. Anywyas, I really dislikes those debates.

I love you, you love me, we love Christ. win.

end thread/

Hero wrote:

trephining wrote:

Hero wrote:

Not based on what you like. Based on The Scriptures.
Scriptures tell me I am victorious. Therefore, I am.

John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Maybe I am out to lunch here, but isn't approaching scripture in this way a form of isolated proof texting? Could you not say this way of interpreting scripture is highly individualistic; and it puts the individual Christian at the center? Does this not ignore the fact that most of the bible was written to corporate bodies of people (i.e. churches), not to individuals? I understand we all look for verses that inspire us, but must we not consider the context in which they occur?

what..? I, we, it's the same thing. We are the body of Christ, we are victorious. But some people just don't believe it. And I can't really blame them because they are so much into torment. However, Jesus casted out the demons causing those torments out of people. We aren't called to suffer exactly as Jesus did. So the "Jesus suffered this way, suffer this way aswell" is kinda bs if you ask me. Anywyas, I really dislikes those debates.

I love you, you love me, we love Christ. win.

end thread/

But is this really self evident? Is Osteen really preaching the Gospel? Does he really mean "victory" in the same way as scripture speaks of victory? Hero, I admire your insights on God and your desire to experience God fully, but I invite you to examine the totality of Osteen's preaching and beliefs.

Wouldn't victory obviously mean spiritual, and not earthly victory?

FuneralOath wrote:

Hero wrote:

trephining wrote:

Hero wrote:

Not based on what you like. Based on The Scriptures.
Scriptures tell me I am victorious. Therefore, I am.

John 10:10 (New International Version)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Maybe I am out to lunch here, but isn't approaching scripture in this way a form of isolated proof texting? Could you not say this way of interpreting scripture is highly individualistic; and it puts the individual Christian at the center? Does this not ignore the fact that most of the bible was written to corporate bodies of people (i.e. churches), not to individuals? I understand we all look for verses that inspire us, but must we not consider the context in which they occur?

what..? I, we, it's the same thing. We are the body of Christ, we are victorious. But some people just don't believe it. And I can't really blame them because they are so much into torment. However, Jesus casted out the demons causing those torments out of people. We aren't called to suffer exactly as Jesus did. So the "Jesus suffered this way, suffer this way aswell" is kinda bs if you ask me. Anywyas, I really dislikes those debates.

I love you, you love me, we love Christ. win.

end thread/

But is this really self evident? Is Osteen really preaching the Gospel? Does he really mean "victory" in the same way as scripture speaks of victory? Hero, I admire your insights on God and your desire to experience God fully, but I invite you to examine the totality of Osteen's preaching and beliefs.

Oh dude I'm absolutely not an osteen follower. I don't know him. I just expressed my thoughts on what was shown in this thread (Mark Driscoll's video).

Probably if I spent time to fully analyze everything Osteen says, I wouldn't agree with a lot.

And to Mark,
What is spiritual has an impact on the physical.
Faith moves things (I'm not talking about mercedes like luxury faith stuff...)

I could go deeper on this particular subject but right now I just don't feel like it.

Heres what I think: If God has given him millions, fine so be it. Dont fault him for having money. Its prolly not tottally his anyway. Victorias family was uber-rich and huge in Houston so either way they got money.

I keep trying to warn my dad about Joel Osteen and all of this stuff, but he keeps telling me that Joel is a great preacher and that the people on this forum are just corrupting me. He's not just a plain Joe either. My father has studied the Bible extensively and has gone to Bible diploma school or whatever it's called. He even has a mini-library of theological books and Bibles. What specifically do I have to say to get through to him?

Turn his library against him. Go through it, compare it to scripture. Show him where and how Osteen is in error.

Miley Rulez wrote:

I keep trying to warn my dad about Joel Osteen and all of this stuff, but he keeps telling me that Joel is a great preacher and that the people on this forum are just corrupting me. He's not just a plain Joe either. My father has studied the Bible extensively and has gone to Bible diploma school or whatever it's called. He even has a mini-library of theological books and Bibles. What specifically do I have to say to get through to him?

If I were in your shoes, I would ask him what is sin, what is repentance, what is salvation, what is faith. Go with the basic essential fundamentals here. Heaven, Hell, life, death. Go through this kind of stuff, then ask him where Joel Osteen preaches about any of it. Shoot, even speak about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ with him. I have seen and heard some of Joel Osteen, and I have yet to really hear him say 1 word about (well, maybe a sentence at most) Christ's death and resurrection on the cross because of our sins.

One last thing, if Osteen is such a great preacher, then ask him where does it say in the Bible that salvation is repeating a prayer someone said on the television.

If your dad thinks we are corrupting you, then I'm personally glad I am corrupting you. After all, to much of Christianity is in "good news" form. Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen are 2 of them. I hold Christianity to a much higher standard than most Christians, so I with my own words am informing I am more of an anti-Christian Christian than most people. It's not something I take pride in, but so much of Christianity almost destroyed my faith in Christ (Yeshua) with what Christianity does. So, I'm personally here to destroy Christianity and Christians, but I'm also here to put the Christ back in "Christianity" and "Christians". Don't get me wrong, I'm also needing to take my own advice as well, as there are kinks and weaknesses I need to work out.

The thing is all these preachers are accountable by God for what they preach to their flock/s.... so do not worry, for they will stand before Him just like you and I.

If you dislike his teaching, don't watch, don't ascribe to his theories.

Of course point out the inconsistencies with scripture and make sure you don't fall for anything that is not of God.... agree with that, but we seriously do not know this mans heart or relationship with Christ. It is evident that some things ring alarm bells, then other things he has said are legit.



Death you already know I disagree with your views about Christianity and Christians...

Mate I still think its based on emotions... God is bigger than all the junk that gets peddled around, He corrects those who need to be corrected, He can heal the wounds been placed by Christians in you... I am proud to be a Christ believer and I live my life for him. I do not need to be destroyed... religious BS, rules, man made crap, division and works of the devil need to be destroyed, not God's people or His church-basically the same thing.

therockismighty wrote:

The thing is all these preachers are accountable by God for what they preach to their flock/s.... so do not worry, for they will stand before Him just like you and I.

If you dislike his teaching, don't watch, don't ascribe to his theories.

Of course point out the inconsistencies with scripture and make sure you don't fall for anything that is not of God.... agree with that, but we seriously do not know this mans heart or relationship with Christ. It is evident that some things ring alarm bells, then other things he has said are legit.



Death you already know I disagree with your views about Christianity and Christians...

Mate I still think its based on emotions... God is bigger than all the junk that gets peddled around, He corrects those who need to be corrected, He can heal the wounds been placed by Christians in you... I am proud to be a Christ believer and I live my life for him. I do not need to be destroyed... religious BS, rules, man made crap, division and works of the devil need to be destroyed, not God's people or His church-basically the same thing.

For the record, I wasn't referring to you when I said Christians. I was refering to stuff like Osteen, Hagee, Larson, Benny Hinn, Westboro Baptist. I already know you are true genuine in the faith.

Note, who said I was pissed or angry with anyone? I left that when I left firestream. This is the internet, so it is understandable to come to a conclusion when someone bashes something.

For Osteen, (I think it was Broc who brought this up or someone else. Whoever did please take the proper credit for it) I remembered someone posted a post that stated he has openly stated in an interview he WILL NOT preach about sin or repentance or salvation. Why he won't is because he knows if he does, he will lose church members and money. This wasn't from me, but if the poster that posted that shows the evidence, then that would be from Osteen's own mouth, so yes, he does need to be destroyed.

Note, when I say destroyed, you should already know that means the "death to self" just like when you posted on firestream that thread. Although a couple of this was for you TRIM, I was mainly posting for everyone to see, not talking to you directly.

The last sentence, that was exactly what I was talking about. Since I know you are an aussie and not an american, you don't know what passes as Christianity in America. Even then, history does show Christianity is not what it claims to be, and it does show Christians tend to not be who they are or claim to be. Christ however, does show Christ is who he claimed. There is a difference between Christianity and Christ. We will agree to disagree on our personal views of Christianity TRIM. Just know I'm not a fan of comprimise to gain the favor of humans.

Neither of the below videos see him mention it directly DoL, but there is enough evidence to prove that he does not have any intention of mentioning it.

Especially in the first video, which he actually has the nerve to use a piece of the gospel and try to replace the fact that Jesus died as a payment for our sin (so that the Father's wrath against the saved will be extinguished), with the fact that Christ died so that we may have total victory.

That's blasphemy, and he's going to hell if he doesn't repent.

Hero wrote:

eternalmystery wrote:

Mark Driscoll speaking about Joel Osteen.

I don't agree that Joel is a Christian brother, because he preaches a different gospel, but the rest of what Mark said I do agree with.

I find a lot more wrong stuff into Mark's counter argument than with Joel's argument.

For one, I can't believe that Mark ommited to comment on this prophetic passage about Jesus:
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
And also all the others that talk about victory for the people of God in the bible.

What does it mean? It means that because Jesus died. We live (life in it's fullness (health, etc etc) It doesn't mean that you'll never suffer. Because Jesus said that if we can not lay down our life for Him, we are not worthy of Him. But at the same time, if we really had to pay for our sins, the same way Jesus paid, by getting beaten up, injured, and all the things like Mark said, then His sacrifice would be vain. Do you get my point? I do not believe in full pin prosperity gospel. But I do not believe either in defeatism. God made me a conqueror. I dont give a crap about the **** happening in my life. I know there's more for me. I know my God loves me and I know that I can go further in my life. And not fall in this defeatist mindset. "Oh well... Jesus suffered... I should suffer too.." NO! why did Jesus suffer? For you and I! He paid our debt for us! He took out sicknesses! Yes, suffering happens, but if you are happy with it, how will you fight against it? How will you go further in your spiritual life if you are stagnant, and happy with your mediocrity!?

Here's the deal, it's not true that you will never suffer no matter how close to God you are. God walks us through struggles to form us, pretty much like when you purify gold with fire. HOWEVER, acting like a defeatist (really, like Mark implies) won't get you anywhere. Ever. Since the Earth was created, till the day it will burn. Defeatist won't go anywhere.

Now listen, I don't know for you guys. But I prefer to live my life with a positive mindset, knowing that my God is Almighty and that He paid for my sins and all that the fall of man brought (sicknesses and torments etc). I believe in what I read from the bible.

There is a ton of verses that Mark just closed his eyes on. I am not a Joel Osteen follower, I pick some stuff, I leave the rest.

Here's my view anyways: Be pure for God, so that He may use you as a direct dedicated channel for Him to bring hope to others. Be a tool for God to save souls. Defeatists don't save souls. The conquerors go, they don't look at what's around them. They just go balls out for Christ. And this is what Jesus wants from us. To be burning of passion for Him. A defeatist is warm/cold. He is stagnant. A stagnant Christian bears no fruits.

P.S. I was a defeatist for almost all my life until recently (a year, now). And never ever, will I go back into this spiritual prison that defeatism is. I figured that if I was to run the good race, I needed to be positive. I needed to be a winner. Not being a winner by saying "God gimmy a mercedes, God gimmy a manor" No. Being a winner by turning from my sins and working for Christ. Laying down my life to his feet, only to get it back in a much, much richer way. Here, on Earth, and in Heaven.

If God allows me to be persecuted because of Christ, okay. But please note this: "because of Christ". Not for anything else. I won't accept it otherwise. I'll fight against it. And guess what? I'll win. Because God is Almighty and He is in me.

This is a great post! Thanks for sharing that!

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Neither of the below videos see him mention it directly DoL, but there is enough evidence to prove that he does not have any intention of mentioning it.

Especially in the first video, which he actually has the nerve to use a piece of the gospel and try to replace the fact that Jesus died as a payment for our sin (so that the Father's wrath against the saved will be extinguished), with the fact that Christ died so that we may have total victory.

That's blasphemy, and he's going to hell if he doesn't repent.

To add to your post ATAC, I remembered watching an Osteen sermon where he was mentioning those who preach against what he preaches, and he has the nerves to go out of his way and quote the "judge not lest ye be judged" and "get the pole out of your eye before you remove my speck" verses as a way to discredit us. Basically, he indirectly called us hypocrites for standing up for Gospel instead of "good news" Godless Humanism. I agree ATAC, both of those videos show the true heart of Osteen. TRIM, check out both of those videos. It will really put into context why I said I am an anti-Christian and want Christianity destroyed. We know the Truth, but Osteen is still seen by many more people as a Godly Christian who speaks nothing but Truth. Yes, some of his messages are True, but when you remove the Truth from that True into a half Truth, according to Scriptures, a half Truth is still a lie, and the 1st video has not even a half Truth written all over it. So, yes you can get some good messages out of it, but because he leaves out the essentials intentionally and he knows it, I'm calling him out on it. Osteen's Christianity is Godless Humanism Prosperity Gospel, not the Scriptures of The Holy Bible that you and I and ATAC hold dearly.

(I still need to read it, so encouragement would be greatly appreciated! Can't believe I'm only 2 chapters from finishing Matthew, then I quit reading.)

Death over Life wrote:

I remembered watching an Osteen sermon where he was mentioning those who preach against what he preaches, and he has the nerves to go out of his way and quote the "judge not lest ye be judged" and "get the pole out of your eye before you remove my speck" verses as a way to discredit us.

Twist not scripture, lest ye be like the devil Joel.

1 John 3:8-9 (ESV) wrote:

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV) wrote:

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth (Bryan Note: this does not imply they are saved. Salvation is not a prerequisite to listening to the actual truth.) and wander off into myths.

However, based on these two verses, I think he already is.

Joel, if you refuse to talk about sin, get off the pulpit. There's enough blasphemy running around as it is without you running rampant on the televisions and bookshelves.

What Osteen preaches is not Christianity. He (mis)uses the Bible, but he completely misses the mark in readily refusing to preach sin. The core message of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our SINS. If you envision a blameless man beaten, bloodied and hanging on a tree, unjustly taking a punishment for every rotten thing that you've done in your life and think to yourself, "total victory over my financial issues", "total victory over my bad situation with a co-worker", "total victory over my kid's aversion to green vegetables", then you've TOTALLY missed the point of Christ's message, and you also suck. A lot.

Still thinking about that benz and a 2 million dollar home. Hasn't happened yet. I named it and claimed it. Somehow Osteen's plan doesn't work. Maybe because I asked amiss. LOL

LastFirstborn wrote:

What Osteen preaches is not Christianity. He (mis)uses the Bible, but he completely misses the mark in readily refusing to preach sin. The core message of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our SINS. If you envision a blameless man beaten, bloodied and hanging on a tree, unjustly taking a punishment for every rotten thing that you've done in your life and think to yourself, "total victory over my financial issues", "total victory over my bad situation with a co-worker", "total victory over my kid's aversion to green vegetables", then you've TOTALLY missed the point of Christ's message, and you also suck. A lot.

i expect much more openmindedness from you....

mystery wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

What Osteen preaches is not Christianity. He (mis)uses the Bible, but he completely misses the mark in readily refusing to preach sin. The core message of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our SINS. If you envision a blameless man beaten, bloodied and hanging on a tree, unjustly taking a punishment for every rotten thing that you've done in your life and think to yourself, "total victory over my financial issues", "total victory over my bad situation with a co-worker", "total victory over my kid's aversion to green vegetables", then you've TOTALLY missed the point of Christ's message, and you also suck. A lot.

i expect much more openmindedness from you....

Hard to be open-minded when scripture says Osteen is a false prophet, of the devil, and is guaranteed hell if he doesn't repent. He is not a Christian.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

mystery wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

What Osteen preaches is not Christianity. He (mis)uses the Bible, but he completely misses the mark in readily refusing to preach sin. The core message of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our SINS. If you envision a blameless man beaten, bloodied and hanging on a tree, unjustly taking a punishment for every rotten thing that you've done in your life and think to yourself, "total victory over my financial issues", "total victory over my bad situation with a co-worker", "total victory over my kid's aversion to green vegetables", then you've TOTALLY missed the point of Christ's message, and you also suck. A lot.

i expect much more openmindedness from you....

Hard to be open-minded when scripture says Osteen is a false prophet, of the devil, and is guaranteed hell if he doesn't repent. He is not a Christian.

where in the bible is osteen mentioned. Because that would be metal.

olias wrote:

againsttheantichrist wrote:

mystery wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

What Osteen preaches is not Christianity. He (mis)uses the Bible, but he completely misses the mark in readily refusing to preach sin. The core message of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our SINS. If you envision a blameless man beaten, bloodied and hanging on a tree, unjustly taking a punishment for every rotten thing that you've done in your life and think to yourself, "total victory over my financial issues", "total victory over my bad situation with a co-worker", "total victory over my kid's aversion to green vegetables", then you've TOTALLY missed the point of Christ's message, and you also suck. A lot.

i expect much more openmindedness from you....

Hard to be open-minded when scripture says Osteen is a false prophet, of the devil, and is guaranteed hell if he doesn't repent. He is not a Christian.

where in the bible is osteen mentioned. Because that would be metal.

If he's mentioned by any other name except blasphemer (or any other biblical synonym), I'm going to take a piece of dynamite, tape it to my head, arms, legs, chest, stomach, and pelvis, climb the tallest building, jump off it, and detonate the dynamite before i hit the ground.