Did you know this?

The Word of God.. according to the scriptures which make up the Bible.. is a person.. also known as God.. which exists and existed before all things.

The Word of God can be found through Scripture.. but it is not Scripture itself. The Bible is the physical imperfect thing that has been translated from imperfect men's scriptures.. who wrote it inspired and even directed by the perfect Word of God.. whom is of course.. perfect God.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.

Anyone disagree?

Semantics.

Does this change anything?

Looks like Ash has been reading Dawkins and Hitchens again!

IronGuardian wrote:

Semantics.

+1

Heresy.

God is perfect in every way, and He has given us in perfect word through scripture. If scripture is imperfect, then HE is imperfect. Notice a problem with that?

If the Bible is imperfect, then we, in the words of Paul, are most to be pitied, because we have spent our entire lives believing in a lie, and it was a waste.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Heresy.

God is perfect in every way, and He has given us in perfect word through scripture. If scripture is imperfect, then HE is imperfect. Notice a problem with that?

If the Bible is imperfect, then we, in the words of Paul, are most to be pitied, because we have spent our entire lives believing in a lie, and it was a waste.

Bryan often we disagree on theology,

but right now, all I can say is this post is absolute win

I didn't want to call him a heretic...but yeah that is a heretical belief ash. It strikes at the core of all christianity.

To expound, look at the verse referenced.

John 1:1 wrote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.

The past tense here references Genesis 1:1; the time prior to creation.

The problem with the argument is the part emphasized: Word was God. God is the Word, and the Word is the Bible, which is His counsel to us.

Luke 24:27 - And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Why would Christ reference prophesies and scripture concerning Himself if He is not the word of God? He spent years ministering to those around and in Israel about the saving grace of God. Fulfilling Old Testament prophecy, and prophesing even more concerning items such as the crucifixion and the end-times.

They all came to past.

Is that not evidence enough that God is the Word?

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Heresy.

God is perfect in every way, and He has given us in perfect word through scripture. If scripture is imperfect, then HE is imperfect. Notice a problem with that?

If the Bible is imperfect, then we, in the words of Paul, are most to be pitied, because we have spent our entire lives believing in a lie, and it was a waste.

+100

I guess I'm a heretic because I agree with some of what Ash is talking about.

The Bible DOES have holy scriptures. I believe the "text book for living" aspects of the Bible are extremely important.

Some of the content in the Bible... for lack of better words, is "plain old literature". History buffs might get off to these aspects, but they certainly aren't a requirement, nor I would even call a strong recommendation, to improving spirituality or faith.

It's the words of God, but the book is written by men.
It's paper and ink like any other book.

Perfect? I can't say. Once again, it was written by men. Men aren't perfect. Not everything created by God is perfect, so I don't know on this.
Anyone who's ever played a game of "Telephone" could probably imagine how skewed things could get - with a perfect messenger and a imperfect receiver.

It concerns me when Christians view The Bible as almost a separate deity, or a relic to worship and pray to. It strikes a little too close to idolatry to me. (not referring specifically to anyone in here)

Oh well, Ash and Hguols what about a Heretic-Club on BJ. I would be member no. 3.

olias wrote:

IronGuardian wrote:

Semantics.

+1

+2
The Bible is the word of God in the sense that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to write and protected them from moral and doctrinal error.
The Bible is NOT the word of God in the sense that it is the second person of the Holy Trinity. This is indisputable. That sounds like some Islamic nonsense, with the whole Eternal Koran business (which blows a hole in Islam because how could only Allah be eternal with that whole Eternal Koran. )

I still want to hear Ash's thoughts on what this means for him. I don't think those of you calling him a heretic or Hgouls' agreement necessarily represent what Ash is saying. So, Ash should say so

Hguols wrote:

Perfect? I can't say. Once again, it was written by men. Men aren't perfect. Not everything created by God is perfect, so I don't know on this.
Anyone who's ever played a game of "Telephone" could probably imagine how skewed things could get - with a perfect messenger and a imperfect receiver.

That's the thing...it wasn't really written by men, God isnpired what he wanted to be written in the hearts and minds of the men who put it in writing

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Heresy.

God is perfect in every way, and He has given us in perfect word through scripture. If scripture is imperfect, then HE is imperfect. Notice a problem with that?

If the Bible is imperfect, then we, in the words of Paul, are most to be pitied, because we have spent our entire lives believing in a lie, and it was a waste.

Anyone who has had any experience with how the Bible is translated.. and how many ways each verse can be translated differently... knows what I am talking about. ( My father used to translate scripture as part of his Ancient language studies and he would sit me down with him and make me observe what original languages spoke and how it could be translated into modern languages.)

The fact is... the Bible ( the physical translations) does not need to be "Perfect".. because God can still use Perfectly an Imperfect thing. Don't limit God.

The Scriptures are Holy ( set apart ).. the scriptures are Divine ( inspired and directed by the Word of God Himself).. but the physical thing that we hold and read is not sacred in and of itself.. what is Sacred is the Truth bound up Through It's words.

The Scriptures are themselves.. in their pure sense.. not Words.

But it is through Words that we convey Ideas and Truths.. like the ideas and Turths that can save our souls from damnation.

When you say that the BIBLE is the Word of God.. you inadvertently are commiting idolatry. You turn the physical thing into a sort of Diety. Remember , God is Spirit and The Word of God is God.

Just as words are used to convey meaning that cannot be expressed fully in words. The fullness of The Word of God is MUCH MUCH TOO BIG for the our Fallen languages to encompass.

Especially considering the fact that we are spiritually fallen beings and as such our languages are incredibly dull and meaningless spirtually.

Possibly in our Pre- Fallen state we could write the "perfect" translation of the Scriptures, because we would be Spiritually alive and have "words" that could be used to encompass spiritual truths. But alas.. at best I think we must settle for God's Perfect ability to use Perfectly an Imperfected language of fallen men to Serve his Purposes among men.

Also, this is not a Heretical Belief.. this is actual well accepted among mainstream Christianity and not "shocking" at all.. Ask your Church's pastor and you'll be surprised which side of this issue they will take.. in fact, it's not even an "issue" in the least.. I find the heretical shouts humorous.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Anyone who has had any experience with how the Bible is translated.. and how many ways each verse can be translated differently... knows what I am talking about. ( My father used to translate scripture as part of his Ancient language studies and he would sit me down with him and make me observe what original languages spoke and how it could be translated into modern languages.)

The fact is... the Bible ( the physical translations) does not need to be "Perfect".. because God can still use Perfectly an Imperfect thing. Don't limit God.

The scriptures are Holy ( set apart ).. the scriptures are Divine ( inspired and directed by the Word of God Himself).. but the physical thing that we hold and read is not sacred in and of itself.. what is Sacred is the Truth bound up Through It's words.

The scriptures are themselves.. in their pure sense.. not Words.

But it is through Words that we convey Ideas and Truths.. like the ideas and Turths that can save our souls from damnation.

When you say that the BIBLE is the Word of God.. you inadvertently are commiting idolatry. You turn the physical thing into a sort of Diety. Remember , God is Spirit and The Word of God is God.

Just as words are used to convey meaning that cannot be expressed fully in words. The fullness of The Word of God is MUCH MUCH TOO BIG for the our Fallen languages to encompass.

Especially considering the fact that we are spiritually fallen beings and as such our languages are incredibly dull and meaningless spirtually.

Possibly in our Pre- Fallen state we could write the "perfect" translation of the scriptures, because we would be Spiritually alive and have "words" that could be used to encompass spiritual truths. But alas.. at best I think we must settle for God's Perfect ability to use Perfectly an Imperfected language of fallen men to Serve his Purposes among men.

Also, this is not a Heretical Belief.. this is actual well accepted among mainstream Christianity and not "shocking" at all.. Ask your Church's pastor and you'll be surprised which side of this issue they will take.. in fact, it's not even an "issue" in the least.. I find the heretical shouts humorous.

I strongly agree with this.

switchin gears from spammin politics, to spammin theology. At any rate, it is less incendiary. I approve

You just threw out every text possible (including the original texts) are being false and deceptive portrayals of Him. How are we supposed to know anything about Him if there is no Word of God to go by? If the Bible isn't the Word of God....then what is?

Instinct?

Heart?

Intuition?

All are of the flesh; all are corrupt. You'd do better using a paper bag to learn about the Lord.

Romans 10:17 wrote:

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

No Word of God means no hearing. No hearing means no faith. No faith means mankind is damned to hell for eternity (including JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, because He used the very "false bible" Himself) i.

Oh, Christ is a liar too...and by default, God Himself.

And God....what God? You just ringed Him out as an imperfect (yet existent) being. Either He is perfect, or He does not exist. Which one is it?

It's either the Bible is the word of God, or there is no salvation for us, because besides the Bible and all prior translations, there is nothing of which we can have hope.

I think you're missing what he's saying. Granted, he's saying it in a way that is easily missed . I believe he's saying the Word, as in John 1:1, is not the Word/Bible. Our copies of the Bible are not a person or deity. What would be heretical, is if he didn't believe Scripture contained the Word of God. That would be something to take issue with, since Old Testament prophets recorded the Word of God as spoken through them, which is pretty blatant. I didn't see that from Ash, though. Ash is just a different mind. Kudos for that.


Hgouls perspective may be a lil off. Dig into what he said instead

Ash, you're a heretic. Just kidding.

Bryan, if you plan on being a seminary student, your arguments are going to have to be more balanced and sophisticated hugs

FireProphet wrote:

I think you're missing what he's saying. Granted, he's saying it in a way that is easily missed . I believe he's saying the Word, as in John 1:1, is not the Word/Bible. Our copies of the Bible are not a person or deity. What would be heretical, is if he didn't believe Scripture contained the Word of God. That would be something to take issue with, since Old Testament prophets recorded the Word of God as spoken through them, which is pretty blatant. I didn't see that from Ash, though. Ash is just a different mind. Kudos for that.


Hgouls perspective may be a lil off. Dig into what he said instead

After reading what Atac wrote, you took the words straight out of my mouth hehehe. I was about to post that the Bible isn't the Word of God, but the Bible contains the Word of God.

The Bible itself isn't perfect. It's been proven that there are many forgeries and add-ons within the Scriptures, and there were texts added in and taken away as the copying of Scriptures into our today's Bibles went on. So, since most use a KJV or later, there is no possible way the Bible that is being held in the hands of the majority are Perfect.

ATA et al, I don't believe you fully understood the opening post, but instead launched straight into an attack. I'd hazzard to say you didn't even read it, or my "semantics" reply. It's taken FireProphet to bring this to your attention.

There is nothing to attack anyone about, people. We are all just children in the grand scheme of things.. who muddle through concepts that are much bigger that we are as mortal humans.

*throws an original KJV at Ash*