2 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.




Rev. 12:17
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

babylon was a very satanic nation and that is why it is used as prophetic imagery in revelations. most modern satanism also draws from ancient babylonian sources and many of the babylonian gods were and still are real entities (demons).

wizardovmetal wrote:

no that was refering to satan the babylonian king was not in the garden of eden firstly, dol, you seem to not believe in a "satan", are my thoughts on that correct?

I’ll get the 1st part of the question in the other quote, but for my 2nd question, depends on what you mean by Satan. If you mean a super demon that did all this stuff as if it were the closest thing to God without being God, no.

If you mean a demon or many demons who go around tempting and deceiving into humans worshipping them and are going against God while still being obedient to Him, yes.

If you mean it as the title accuser, in which many humans are called “satan”, yes.

It all depends on what you are saying.

Alright, I will go and fix up your 2nd post, but before hand, this is a great read on the subject. A Blog entitled: The Satan name is not Lucifer.

http://lordvoldemort2000.blogspot.com/2009/07/satan-name-is-not-lucifer.html

wizardovmetal wrote:

2 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

Let us add in the beginning. The Bold emphasis is mine:

Quote :

Isaiah 14

1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

So, with that being said. Verse 4 says this is to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. That is not found in the Chapter or in the Bible that Satan is who is referenced when they say King of Babylon.

Even then, let us continue:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

This isn’t specifically referencing Revelation. Notice, we are speaking of a King, the most High. Them being as High as they are, were in the heavens as the verse says. If we are to make this connection with Satan, then that means, Satan was a King in Heaven (nowhere to be found in Scriptures), this is speaking in past tense, so we are speaking to an individual who isn’t powerful and mighty. We are speaking to an individual who has already fallen and is now cast down. Cast down to the earth doesn’t mean Heaven going to planet earth. Nebachudnezzar would be a great example of what this is speaking of. It means that this King was so high, now that His’ power has been lost, he is now down to the earth aka, just like the rest of them.

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

This verse disproves the belief on it’s own, lest it contradicts itself. If this really is the Lucifer/Satan belief, then why does it say: I WILL ASCEND TO HEAVEN? According to the Lucifer/Satan belief, They ALREADY ARE in Heaven. So, if the King of Babylon is really Lucifer, and is already into Heaven, How is he going to ascend to Heaven? He already has? The answer is, either this is a contradiction, or the Babylonian King is something completely different than the Lucifer/Satan belief.

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

Yep, this is the nail in the coffin. It went from speaking about the Babylonian’s dreams to the Babylonian’s reality. Brought down is past tense, signifying this has already happened. Unless the Bible is extremely paradoxical here, Satan/Lucifer is still around, not in any grave or pit. Even then, notice the words, grave, pit. These are the human’s destiny’s for rejecting Christ, not the angels. The angels go to the abyss, aka Tartarus. So, either Babylonian King is about an actual King, or Scriptures contradict themselves. I go with the former.

wizardovmetal wrote:

Rev. 12:17
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

For this, I shall just leave off a piece of Lord Voldemort’s Revelation commentary on this very subject:

Quote :

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Gog and Magog will rise up and by the time Christ returns there will be a time of 3 ½ years.

What is being said here is in context of the sign, not a literal war. The Dragon appears in the sky to devour the child, that is the sign of Draco. The defeat of the Dragon is the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. To rise up again as Gog and Magog.

The dragon, since the time of Egypt has been able to create empire after empire. When the Ottoman Empire was defeated, it found itself unable to make another one. As Revelation 20 says it was “thrown into the Abyss”, that is the inability to create an empire. Michael is symbolizes as the one who defeated the Ottoman Empire, the empire that defeated them is the one that allowed the Jews to reform Israel afterwards, The British Empire.

The Dragon is called “Devil” and “Satan” which has led many to assume that this is indeed the one who tempted Christ, is also the one that is doing this. I disagree. The language here denotes that Satan and Devil are descriptive terms, not proper names, which also has led the confusion of “Satan” being a proper name.

And the great dragon was thrown down (The spirit of the empires, this dragon is described several times in the book of revelation), the serpent of old (The Dragon is a serpent, and it has been around since the Egyptian empire) who is called a devil (slanderer) and Satan (accuser), who deceives (lies and accuses) the whole world. This is the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer

wizardovmetal wrote:

babylon was a very satanic nation and that is why it is used as prophetic imagery in revelations. most modern satanism also draws from ancient babylonian sources and many of the babylonian gods were and still are real entities (demons).

Actually, I would say Pagan rather than Satanic, but the end results are the same either way.

I know and remember there were Scriptures that said that Pagan gods are and were demons. Thing is though, that last sentence helps my case rather than debunk it. As it is with Babylon, it is the same throughout. There isn’t 1 super demon, it is many demons (1/3). There is no 1 vs. 1, it is 1 then under, the 1/3 vs. the rest of creation.

I hope this helps, and just in case, please read this: http://lordvoldemort2000.blogspot.com/2009/07/satan-name-is-not-lucifer.html

i understand theres no "super demon" there is a satan though and a countless number of demons all under his service going by different ranks and different jobs, some lesser some greater, satan himself is usually not the one involved in peoples lives, it is the demons. satan himself is not omnipresent like god, and i also understand satan is not powerful in any sense compared to god, and he does not have the time to go around bothering people, (hes too busy working with our govt hahaha jk.) but the demons do. i suggest reading some old grimoires, most of them are pretty much repetitions of themselves and the information in them is pretty much the same from one to the other. theres satan, then theres i think its four crown princes, then a bunch of demons under them who are also in authority over other groups, strangely, its somewhat like the military. just like michael, of course when you ask for spiritual protection i doubt michael himself will be present there, but he will have others carry out commands, according to what god says. and as far as satanism in babylon, sure, it may not be labeled "satanism" but even the elite groups like the brotherhood use and draw on dark pagan beleifs, especially anything egyptian and babylonian. those religions were not some "fairy tale" those "gods" were and are still real. i have done alot of research linking various pagan gods to demons and they have left a mark on nearly ALL non-abrahamic religions, this was probably the breaking point for me where i was like, crap, satan is for real and god is for real. i knew that without a doubt the abrahamic religions (with the exclusion of islam) is the only "different" religion from the rest. the 1000s of year old brotherhood is nothing more then a very dark form of babylonian crap. satan and his demons have left a trail throughout all religions.

wizardovmetal wrote:

i understand theres no "super demon" there is a satan though and a countless number of demons all under his service going by different ranks and different jobs, some lesser some greater, satan himself is usually not the one involved in peoples lives, it is the demons.

See though, I may not have read the entire Bible atm, but I have yet to see this in Scriptures ever (outside of what you said on Revelation). So, I may not be seeing it, but where does this show up in the Bible? How I will combat that is, all under Job 1 actually.

In Job 1, this is spoken:

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Basically, I have never seen a heiarchy for demons like that. Never Satan commanding demons, but I always see God and/or Christ commanding demons. (perfect example is Jesus' miracle of excersising demons from people) If there is Scripture for proof of Satan commanding demons to do things, please debunk me.

In addition to that, I could have sworn that I have read that Satan does get involved in other people’s lives, such as Job as the above states. The fact that Satan even states he has been to and fro, up and down the earth, signifies he is either tempting, or he doesn’t have anything to do so he goes for extremely long walks.

wizardovmetal wrote:

satan himself is not omnipresent like god, and i also understand satan is not powerful in any sense compared to god, and he does not have the time to go around bothering people, (hes too busy working with our govt hahaha jk.) but the demons do. i suggest reading some old grimoires, most of them are pretty much repetitions of themselves and the information in them is pretty much the same from one to the other.

This I do agree with except for the Satan to busy to go around tempting people. Grimoires? Never heard of them. At the moment, I think I need to stay Truly Sola Scriptora before venturing into other books until I have completely read what the Bible says. I will admit, it has been a while since I picked the Book up, but I shall get to it in the very near future.

wizardovmetal wrote:

theres satan, then theres i think its four crown princes, then a bunch of demons under them who are also in authority over other groups, strangely, its somewhat like the military. just like michael, of course when you ask for spiritual protection i doubt michael himself will be present there, but he will have others carry out commands, according to what god says.

As earlier, with the request, I would like to see this in Scriptures, as I’ve never heard of anything like that at all, until just now. Never heard of a heiarchy or military styled demons and angels working together or against each other like that.

In addition, never seen one time where Satan commands a demon, but Christ commanding demons is very relevant. In fact, it’s part of His’ miracles.

wizardovmetal wrote:

and as far as satanism in babylon, sure, it may not be labeled "satanism" but even the elite groups like the brotherhood use and draw on dark pagan beleifs, especially anything egyptian and babylonian. those religions were not some "fairy tale" those "gods" were and are still real. i have done alot of research linking various pagan gods to demons and they have left a mark on nearly ALL non-abrahamic religions, this was probably the breaking point for me where i was like, crap, satan is for real and god is for real. i knew that without a doubt the abrahamic religions (with the exclusion of islam) is the only "different" religion from the rest. the 1000s of year old brotherhood is nothing more then a very dark form of babylonian crap.

This, I can’t comment on because I have never researched on this. So, this may or may not have something to do with us differing on our views.

wizardovmetal wrote:

satan and his demons have left a trail throughout all religions.

This is the last thing I must mention. I have yet once ever seen Satan credited as owning demons to command. Satan, from what I’ve seen, owns nothing at all. I’ve yet to see any demons worship Satan, much less, obey Him commanding. I’ve only seen this with God the Father and Jesus Christ, sometimes with extreme fear of God. As spoken, if you do have Bible Scriptures that do show this, I’d like to see so that way I may be corrected.

i do but cant remember them atm, i do suggest your read some of the lost books, especially the first book of adam and eve, it explains alot of unexplained "holes" in scripture.

wizardovmetal wrote:

i do but cant remember them atm, i do suggest your read some of the lost books, especially the first book of adam and eve, it explains alot of unexplained "holes" in scripture.

Well, in all honesty, if you remember certain words and which translation, Biblegateway.com will help you out greatly. Usually when I'm put in that position, that website helped me out a ton.

As for the "holes", I haven't really stepped across any that didn't deal with the forgeries. Once the forged in Scriptures were removed, everything made perfect sense. That will have to be for a separate thread, but what kind of holes are you speaking of? The only one I can think of (once again forgery claim) at the moment is maybe Judas Iscariot.

you NEED to start a thread on that, i would really appreciate it

oldschooldoom wrote:

Hate, such a strong word.

I despise, loathe, and am repulsed at what the coward known as satan has done.

Ash is correct. I retract what I said. The devil is no coward. I will change that to 'fool'.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

What do you think?

Is it ok to hate satan and demons... ?

Cause we find elsewhere in scripture that we are not to hate even our enemies ( that does not mean we have to like them , of course ).. and that if we do not forgive them.. we ourselves cannot be forgiven. In other words , resentment according to the teachings of Christ and the apostles is unacceptable.

Does this rule end with humans or continue on to spiritual beings as well.. like Satan and the Fallen Angels?

And another question.. if we have a strong hatred for satan, who is harmed more by it ? Satan or us?

This is what I think, which is not necessarily theologically correct... (I have to read up on demons more):

I say it's to fine to hate them, and that teachings on loving your enemies only applies to humans. This is because we know God has made no means of salvation for Satan and demons whatsoever, unlike mankind. Sympathy for them is therefore inappropriate, knowing this and also the fact that they are evil and wouldn't repent anyway; they exist to destroy.

I also say it's not good to obsessively think about demons and hatred of them, you know like you're actively thinking about hating them all the time... but I could be wrong.

As for vengeance, you should not seek it yourself but leave it to God. The Bible says have nothing to do with demons. Stick them together, even if the first only applies to mankind, and I think you'll be on good ground. Accept that they're bad, are going to burn one day, and leave the vengeance to God.

I don't think demons should be used as a scapegoat for all of humanity's problems either. Some Christians get in the habit of blaming demons for everything; I think that's just a way of shrugging off responsibility, and bad theology.

wiremu.white wrote:

I say it's to fine to hate them, and that teachings on loving your enemies only applies to humans. This is because we know God has made no means of salvation for Satan and demons whatsoever, unlike mankind. Sympathy for them is therefore inappropriate, knowing this and also the fact that they are evil and wouldn't repent anyway; they exist to destroy.

I believe that the loving your enemies goes beyond humanity. That is something that actually is talked about earlier in the thread.

Now, with the exception of this portion, I agree entirely with the post. With this, (goes back to your' Gospel thread), why would God play favorites on Humans while screwing over the angels like that?

Why should I not sympathize on spiritual beings that are forever damned all because they aren't humans? That not only seems very unfair and sadistic, but that makes God a very pick-and-choose God which makes Him look like the evil one instead.

Humans are evil as well, not just demons, so that is out of the window. How do you know they wouldn't repent anyways? God gives us humans a 2nd chance, but why won't He give the demons a 2nd chance? Once again favoritism.

Also, the last one, not according to Job and to much of the Gospels in the NT. They play a part in God's will, which is why they are allowed to do what they do. God needs them according to His' purpose, otherwise they would have been cast to Tartarus a long time ago.

I know the answer to all of this and will reveal it to you, but I wan't your views on this before I give the answer.

I think the most powerful thing a believer can do to counterattack Satan is to show how little he is intimidated by him, and also to show how small of an effect he can have in our lives.
Satan WANTS to intervene in our lives and make us hate him. The best thing we can do is show him indifference, in my opinion.

Death over Life wrote:

wiremu.white wrote:

I say it's to fine to hate them, and that teachings on loving your enemies only applies to humans. This is because we know God has made no means of salvation for Satan and demons whatsoever, unlike mankind. Sympathy for them is therefore inappropriate, knowing this and also the fact that they are evil and wouldn't repent anyway; they exist to destroy.

I believe that the loving your enemies goes beyond humanity. That is something that actually is talked about earlier in the thread.

Now, with the exception of this portion, I agree entirely with the post. With this, (goes back to your' Gospel thread), why would God play favorites on Humans while screwing over the angels like that?

Why should I not sympathize on spiritual beings that are forever damned all because they aren't humans? That not only seems very unfair and sadistic, but that makes God a very pick-and-choose God which makes Him look like the evil one instead.

Humans are evil as well, not just demons, so that is out of the window. How do you know they wouldn't repent anyways? God gives us humans a 2nd chance, but why won't He give the demons a 2nd chance? Once again favoritism.

Also, the last one, not according to Job and to much of the Gospels in the NT. They play a part in God's will, which is why they are allowed to do what they do. God needs them according to His' purpose, otherwise they would have been cast to Tartarus a long time ago.

I know the answer to all of this and will reveal it to you, but I wan't your views on this before I give the answer.

I typed up an answer. It took me a long time. I meticulously checked it and edited it as only a person with obsessive-compulsive disorder and enough time on their hands can. I went to post my original reply. This forum had automatically logged me out while I was preparing my response, and claimed I needed to log back in before I could post it. I did this. The forum did not post my reply. I clicked the back arrow numerous times, but my reply is gone. FOREVER.

Perhaps I will respond later. My reply had to do with predeterminism and the link between nature-actions and heart-deeds, but apparently God has predetermined my response to be lost. Somewhere, a demon laughs. Stupid demon.

I hate it when that happens. I wanted to read that to, but I will still give you my thoughts after I read your' new reply.

I have had that happen to me as well, and there are 2 precautions I do to avoid losing the data.

#1. If you have Microsoft Word/Wordpad etc. USE IT! What I do is I do the right click copy and past thing, type up the reply, then copy and paste it onto the website. This way, if it get's lost, you are only a right click or a Word away from restoring it!

#2. Is obviously saving the thing onto the computer. I've only done that a couple times, I mostly do #1.

If worse comes to worse, do you think you could at least get it paraphrased?

I think the question should be asked does God hate Satan? If He does, then where does that leave us?

God loved Lucifer and He still loves him.

I dont think Christians SHOULD hate him, its kind of a waste. Best is to just to avoid him.

Good thoughts so I shall ask, why exactly should we avoid Satan? Why are we supposed to flee from that which we fear?

No one seems to think about the fact that there is nothing any angel or demon can or can not do without it getting the okay from God 1st.

Throughout my views of life, I'm never going to understand humans and how Christians view hating demons as something that should be done and promoted, nor how we are supposed to flee and avoid confrontation when regarding choice and free will.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier or not, but I still hold Satan in a much more positive light than the extreme majority of Christians (and maybe even some Satanists) do.

Romans 12:19
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

I think this ends the discussion. Being a Christian is as much about hate as it is about love.

Death over Life wrote:

Good thoughts so I shall ask, why exactly should we avoid Satan? Why are we supposed to flee from that which we fear?

Not flee from what we fear, but from what harms us unless we can stop it.

Alright. Thank you for the correction. As long as when you speak of the fleeing, we are learning how to counter it.

As I've learned the hard way, running away does not solve the problem, hence the above post.

I hate everything the devil has said
I hate everything the devil has done

oldschooldoom wrote:

I hate everything the devil has said
I hate everything the devil has done

Yep, hating the devil for obeying God.

I like how what those who tend to think of the devil is also how they think of God, especially since God sanctions the devil's actions.

Yes, we must hate the Devil, and all the forces of darkness
Yes, There is a command order among the demons, just like any well trained military
There is no salvation for fallen Angelic beings, they were not created in God's own image, like Man.

Yes, The Devil has many names; satan, lucifer, beelizabub, etc... In revelations he is the Red Dragon. The study of demonology might tell you different, but one thing I have learned studying sorcercy is never believe anything from the demonic side of things.
And Never, Never, Never, try to go up against satan by yourself or with an army of christians. He has been around since before this earth was made, he knows the scriptures better than all of us put together, and his greatest success was putting on a nice white suit and getting up on the pulpit to preach the word of God to you. All he has to do is twist one verse and he can pervert the truth of God.
Jesus taught us how to deal with the devil. When the devil appeared to jesus while he was in the wilderness and tempted him, he simply rebuked him, Jesus said, "Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God" and that is all he had to do. We must likewise simply rebuke the devil and any evil that we see with the Holy Scripture. This is why the Lord gave us his Holy Spirit, that we may be able to decipher all things by faith and by the hearing of his Word.

We are not to live in darkness, we are to have dominion over it. Embracing or holding the devil in high regard is playing a very foolish game.

Positive light about the devil? Not seeing it anywhere... he wants us to not be close to Christ, to go against God's teaching, to live for ourselves and hold our own knowledge and wonderful opinions higher than God's word and wisdom, to indulge in every lust of the flesh... oh and to join him in hell, yay... thats positive.



Have a good read of John.

stefan wrote:

Yes, we must hate the Devil, and all the forces of darkness
Yes, There is a command order among the demons, just like any well trained military
There is no salvation for fallen Angelic beings, they were not created in God's own image, like Man.

It's funny. It would seem that you and your brother have differing views on the matter. And oddly enough, even though I prefer talking (or arguing really. There is no way to simply just talk to a Durrance over the interwebz) to Ash, I have to admit that I agree with you for once.