Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I have one simple answer, which many of you will not understand or accept because your hearts are of stone and your necks are stiff.

Here, Jesus quotes:

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. (He speaks of the Gentiles) They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
(John 10: 14 - 16)

All of Jesus's sheep listen to his voice. Those who do not listen to his voice are not his sheep. Jesus proves this assertion by his next comment a little later:

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”


If a person is born and dies a non-believer, the reason why they never believed is because they were not His sheep. God withheld his mercy from them, and He has the right to do so without any injury to his Holy attributes. I can now hear your objections: "well, isn't he just speaking of the Pharisees?" Absolutely not. Jesus singled out in general that those (anyone) who believe Him is a part of his sheep. This is an absolute statement. Therefore, it logially follows that any human being who never believed until death was not granted the gift of faith and repentance, and subsequently eternal life.

So you folks who do not believe (there is no efficacy in belief or faith) may certainly not be part of His sheep. If God has mercy on you and you do repent and believe, it follows that you were in fact his sheep. Hopefully you will repent and believe, and I hope and pray that God saves you.

But those who do not believe are not victims, but perpetrators and enemies of God. They cannot believe because they are of the flesh, and are sons of disobedience - the wrath of God abides on them continually. They, out of their compatibilist free will, always choose to do evil in the sight of the Lord, so you are guilty because the sin of Adam has been imputed to you. Since one is fallen, one cannot "try hard to choose God. Human beings do not have the power to "find" God.

What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. (Rom. 3:3).

More on man:

the sinful man is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (this implies inability) (Rom. 8:7) This establishes the fact that God is always the seeker - not man. One cannot try hard to be good because:

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." (Rom 3: 10-12)

The notion that those who do not believe, at the end, will be judged by their "sincerity and goodness" is unbiblical and patently false. It is an invented speculative human philosophy invented to appease the conscience and suppress the truth. All biblical truth points otherwise.

Many here have a lopsided and unbalanced understanding of God's Justice. Some of you think that God owes everyone a chance, and that if not, He is unfair. This stems from your humanistic and perverted view of, again, God's Justice. This is the main problem of the universalist, radical ecumenist, and the carnal simple minded man.

Faith is not a work, belief is not a work, they are gifts of God in justification by Christ alone, and you cannot merit heaven by your faith or your belief, so a person who has not been regenerated (born again) cannot please God, for the scripture says: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Heb. 11:6) Do some of you actually think that a Buddhist (whom God has not regenerated) can just be "earnest" and "seeking?"
If he is doing so by himself, he is then trying to seek God by his own strength, and we know that this is impossible since we have already established that natural man, apart from Christ, cannot seek God. I told you once and I will say it again. This implies inability!

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Rom 3:27-28). If an unregenerated Buddhist tried very very hard to "find" his idolatrous concept of God, and for the sake of argument, "found him," Then he would have something to boast about since his "seeking" and 'faith" was efficaious and contributed to his justification, which would be a total violation of scriptural principles.

One cannot be saved by merely accepting "general revelation" and kinda sort of being a "good person." Many of you ought to know that by now. One only can have reconciliation with God through special revelation, God being the initiator of this special revelation. The reason why "common grace" exists is so that all men maybe held accountable to God.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
(Romans 1:18-20)

For those of you who object, I will take you here:

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Rom. 9:14-16)

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Rom. 19-21)

Are you in for some more?

Jesus teaches in John 6

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. And again, a pivotal teaching from the same chapter: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

And for those who believe that a non-saved person can somehow pull himself by the bootstraps and go to heaven via another human sinful religious leader or guru or other system, Jesus crushes and delights us with this statement:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

Jesus and Buddah taught opposite things and all you have to do is take a course in comparative religion even in a secular institution, Jesus being God and Buddah pursuing works righteousness as a misguided simple man. For the poster who believes he can identify with Buddah more and that it makes life easier, so be it. The Christian life is more difficult, as we are to follow God's will and not out own. We are to carry our cross, suffer, and live for Him. To deny ourselves.

To the poster who says this, and I quote: "Then again, it is my core belief that God doesn't deny those who truly seek him. (I agree, however, they must first be justified and regenerated). Those who're putting for the effort - we're all doing the best that we can with what we got. (Effort does not merit salvation, brother, as stated above several times.)

To the poster, my dear friend, who posted this "you actually have to choose to have faith.. if you do not.. its not real or tangible to you." I do not want to be nitpicky nor do I want to offend you. But apart from Chrisrt, nobody can have faith. God does not respond to man's faith, as is evident in the scriptures provided above. I hope you understand, my amiga, and you have all the right to disagree with me.

In conclusion, I believe that the popular and blasphemous teaching of "wider mercy salvation" that many Christians and many apostates and confused people embrace, and a poor understanding of scripture and systematic Theology is greatly hurting the visible and invisible Church.

Jesus is our wonderful savior and the only, only, only, only, only way to eternal life. Everyone and everything else is worthless.

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I wasn't refering to "personal experiences"

the great test of Life is to be able to accept both good and evil from God.. and learning not to Judge Him.

Judging God is what crates Damnation... Hellishness... and Sin.

Animals ar not in danger of damnation.. because they do not Judge God.. no matter hwat happens to them or what they experience.

THis is how the KNowledge of Good and Evil Killed Mankind- It caused us to Judge God.. which is where Sin comes from.

In the same way.. the angels fell... they took on the Judgement of God by believing themselves Good. When you do this you make yourself God. For Jesus taught us.. only God the Father is Good. And only one who is Good can rightly Judge.

But one shoudlnot confuse one's opinion or sentiment of God as Judgement , it is not. We can dislike God and not Judge Him. WE can dislike God and not Sin.

And liking someone and loving them are irnoically two different matters. Often those we Love, we also dislike.

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I wasn't refering to "personal experiences"

If you guys thought I meant like "feelings" or "my life changed", I'm not. I know that is bad debate material. I'm talking instant healing's and stuff like that

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I wasn't refering to "personal experiences"

If you guys thought I meant like "feelings" or "my life changed", I'm not. I know that is bad debate material. I'm talking instant healing's and stuff like that

Still, people tend not to take eyewitness miracle hearsay seriously.

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I wasn't refering to "personal experiences"

If you guys thought I meant like "feelings" or "my life changed", I'm not. I know that is bad debate material. I'm talking instant healing's and stuff like that

Still, people tend not to take eyewitness miracle hearsay seriously.

w/e, but there is really no way to debate the things I saw, if you saw it, you would believe it as well

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

olias wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Experiences are too subjective to convince anybody other than yourself.

I wasn't refering to "personal experiences"

If you guys thought I meant like "feelings" or "my life changed", I'm not. I know that is bad debate material. I'm talking instant healing's and stuff like that

Still, people tend not to take eyewitness miracle hearsay seriously.

w/e, but there is really no way to debate the things I saw, if you saw it, you would believe it as well

Not necessarily. Even if supernatural events occurred that were seemingly in-tune with the bible, that wouldn't necessarily be indisputable proof of the bible or God.

Considering that when Christ Resurrected and was standing before his disciples and not all of them would believe it was He, even after having the holes in his hands and side..... that goes to show that for some.. Belief is impossible... no matter what the evidence.

I wouldn't waste too much time on trying to convince people.

When the time comes, you will believe or will not.. it's Entirely a battle of will, and not a battle of proof or evidence.

WE as modern man are so reverant of scientific pragmatism due to our educations and the society that we all live in.. that we make the mistake of thinking that man makes all his decision based on logic and evidence and "facts'. I would argue that this is false.

We are all wild, savage, untamed, boken, disillusioned and terribly terribly desperate creatures when our outward facades are stripped away. OUr decisions over matters of the metaphysical come from this person.. not from the person of the facade we wear everyday.

Our most base amd wretched Selves are what choose to Submit or Not to Submit to Belief in the Living God.. it is not our "educated", stoic, reasonable self.. which is course merely a carefully prepared facade.

Wow, I kinda agree with ya ash!

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Our most base amd wretched Selves are what choose to Submit or Not to Submit to Belief in the Living God.. it is not our "educated", stoic, reasonable self.. which is course merely a carefully prepared facade.

Let's say that I offered you this claim...

Our most base and wretched selves are what choose to submit or not to submit to belief in Thor; it is not our "educated", stoic, reasonable self, which is of course merely a carefully prepared facade.

Would the big words be enough to sway you to believe in Thor? Would you would use "educated", stoic and reasonable arguments against my claim?

Argument debunked.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Our most base amd wretched Selves are what choose to Submit or Not to Submit to Belief in the Living God.. it is not our "educated", stoic, reasonable self.. which is course merely a carefully prepared facade.

Let's say that I offered you this claim...

Our most base and wretched selves are what choose to submit or not to submit to belief in Thor; it is not our "educated", stoic, reasonable self, which is of course merely a carefully prepared facade.

Would the big words be enough to sway you to believe in Thor? Would you would use "educated", stoic and reasonable arguments against my claim?

Argument debunked.

Thor is easy and comfortable to believe in.. like Buddha. The Living God is incredibly unsavory and hard to believe in..

There is a huge difference.

Thor doesn't require you to Believe in something that goes against your very will. That you are a sinner. Christ does.

Allah doesn't require you to believe in the Son od God.. and that He died on a cross for you sins... and then rose three days later from death... so that all of Mankind would be reborn through his defeat of death. Yaweh does require it.

Christ is unlike any other god, Lastfirstborn. He is increibly hard to deal with. That is becasue He is the Real Thing, He has all the difficulties and uncomfortabel qualities of Reality.

And again, Ash holds pretty much my ideas.
Although I'm not sure if I'm on the positive side of the thinking.

I don't feel like I judge God, but hell, do I have a lot of problems with things he does.
The thing is, there is none higher than God, so He doesn't need to justify what He does, which makes it difficult for me to truly want to live in His presence at this point.
I'm not saying I don't want to, I'm just at a point where I need some convincing to want to be near Him.

Matt wrote:

And again, Ash holds pretty much my ideas.
Although I'm not sure if I'm on the positive side of the thinking.

I don't feel like I judge God, but hell, do I have a lot of problems with things he does.
The thing is, there is none higher than God, so He doesn't need to justify what He does, which makes it difficult for me to truly want to live in His presence at this point.
I'm not saying I don't want to, I'm just at a point where I need some convincing to want to be near Him.

yeah i totally see what you mean here. I think the main argument here is if we only have one life (christian, Islam) then everyone on earth wants to be happy. And for me, it was harder to feel happy as a christian. Constantly feeling judged and gulity. This is what drags people away from Christianity i feel.

why spend all your time feeling like rubbish, when most people believe theres no after life, or anything better on the other side, or even the Buddhist view of reincarnation.

But the idea of reincarnation is more of a prospected view and better in my opinion, your Karma is based on how your next life will plan out, so its not a view of, oh crap! i better stop screwing up or im going straight to hell...
its more of i want a better life next time around, so im going to do "my best" to be a better person, not hurt people, animals etc.

but for Christianity, its... my way or the high way. Which is harder to live by. At least with the Buddhist view its " i want to try my best" not "i need to live this way"

thats my views anyway

There are plenty of reasons. One of them is that from a secularist/humanist/atheist/agnostic point of view it may seem like sheer crazyness and lack of common sense.

Not to ignite a flame-war from all of the non-Christians on here, but I genuinely believe that many people simply like the idea of running their own show, without thinking of the rationale behind it. They don't see the limitations and incapability that humans have. That's a major reason that I see. It's not the case with everyone, but I do see that happen a lot.

Flames in 5...4...3...2...2 1/2... 2/1/8...1...

Matt wrote:

And again, Ash holds pretty much my ideas.
Although I'm not sure if I'm on the positive side of the thinking.

I don't feel like I judge God, but hell, do I have a lot of problems with things he does.
The thing is, there is none higher than God, so He doesn't need to justify what He does, which makes it difficult for me to truly want to live in His presence at this point.
I'm not saying I don't want to, I'm just at a point where I need some convincing to want to be near Him.

I'd say your sentiment is completely normal.. even among the great Prophets of the Old Testament.. many of them dod not want to be around God too closely.. and would constnatly struggle with what they had to do.

Your sentiment is even shared by God the Son, in regards to disliking how things are.. of which God is in charge. Remember in the garden of Gehsemenni ( sp?).. he was asking God to take away his cup from Him. His need to suffer as He did.

And when Lazarus had died and Mary was weeping.. Christ broke down and wept as well-

"33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

35Jesus wept. "

If even Christ was unhappy at the suffering allowed in this world.. why should we be surprised at having the same troublesd and misgivings?

It's normal. it's Life.

ELAN wrote:

Not to ignite a flame-war from all of the non-Christians on here, but I genuinely believe that many people simply like the idea of running their own show, without thinking of the rationale behind it. They don't see the limitations and incapability that humans have. That's a major reason that I see. It's not the case with everyone, but I do see that happen a lot.

Flames in 5...4...3...2...2 1/2... 2/1/8...1...

agreed

I don't want to sound judgemental,But people are dumb!Especially compared to Yaweh.Look at all we do,Kill,allow abortions,do druggs,lie,cheat steel,rapr,beat-up others,eat drink and be merry with our alcojol,do drugs.I'ts truly a miracle that such an unworthy race of people who legalize killing fetus'can also have enogh sence to find GOd!

heres why i dont beleive in god *sarcasm* because its obvious the whole universe and everything in it is one great accident, i mean arent you really glad life accidentally sci-fi morphed into existence? arent you glad the universe gives itself its own laws to abide by? wow, even some crazy jesus man made himself come back to life (there is non-gospel evidence of this). isnt it interesting how man has real living consciousness? if there is no god, then man is a robot and we really have no consciousness. if there is no god then its ok that evolution breaks many laws in science, if there is no god then there is no reason for living, let us kill ourselves guys because our existence is futile and meaningless.

i cant study science without knowing god is real, the very fact that there are universal laws that CANNOT be broken proves gods existence. the very fact that i am alive proves his existence, the very reality of existence of anything proves it. you have to think deepoer and get out of your nearsighted view.

the earth holds us down by gravity but science cannot explain why there are unbreakable laws, just how they function, the earth holds us down by gravity because GOD TOLD IT TO.


now averzaath or any other agnostic/atheist, YOU prove to ME there is NO god. no atheist has been able to do this to me yet and i have challenged hundreds

Matt wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

The only reason I could give is, because you'll receive eternal life if you accept Jesus.

That's a greedy and selfish reason.
To me, this eternal life thing actually does not sound appealing at all.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Averzaath wrote:

Give me a reason to believe.

I've witnessed the supernatural through prayer. ....you only asked for one reason so I'll just start with 1 reason

Good for you? so what.
So because someone says something supernatural happened, I should follow your christ? Then I also should believe in aliens, bigfoot and Elvis never died...

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

ELAN wrote:

Not to ignite a flame-war from all of the non-Christians on here, but I genuinely believe that many people simply like the idea of running their own show, without thinking of the rationale behind it. They don't see the limitations and incapability that humans have. That's a major reason that I see. It's not the case with everyone, but I do see that happen a lot.

Flames in 5...4...3...2...2 1/2... 2/1/8...1...

agreed

out of every atheist i have spoken too, it all started because they were angry because god did not grant them a request.