The Blessed Virgin Mary is free from all sin.
Therefore she never died. At her Assumpion,
She was taken body and soul into Heaven.

As the Mother of Jesus Christ she is our
Mother also.
She is to be the new Eve. Eve fell into
original sin.
Mary never did.

Mary never grew old and died. Without
sin there is no death.

She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Jesus spoke from the cross to Saint John,
" Woman behold your son. Son behold your
Mother." She is our Mother also!

Those who hate Mother Mary will be damned.
Those who love her will be saved.
She is your Spiritual Mother. Just Pray!

Pray to her and she will deliver you from sin,
with Christ in her arms.
Men, she will give you "one" of her Spiritual
Daughters.
EWTN.com has knoledge about Mary.
God Bless! Vigilance Saints Arise

*tries to answer the questions*

huh, wait where are the questions :O

............... Why is this in the survey section?

No thanks.

Don't get me wrong, Mary is cool. But she sinned, and she died. She was as filthy of a sinner as us all. Only Christ was 100% pure. You cant pray to Mary because she died. Jesus however, was raised from the dead and He lives in us. This is why you pray to Christ, and Him only.

I don't hate Mary, however, I will never ever ever ever treat her like above God. If, assuming to you, I go to hell because of this, then so be it. However, this is not what the bible teaches us. And, please, forgive me, but I'll take what's written in The Word of God before anything any human will tell me, anyday, forever.

Hero wrote:

No thanks.

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Don't get me wrong, Mary is cool.

No kidding.

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But she sinned, and she died. She was as filthy of a sinner as us all. Only Christ was 100% pure. You cant pray to Mary because she died. Jesus however, was raised from the dead and He lives in us. This is why you pray to Christ, and Him only.

Not according to the Bible. The Bible says that Mary was without sin. The Greek "kecharitomene" meaning "full of grace" is used to describe only two people, Jesus and Mary. Mary did not die, she was Assumed into Heaven. Things like this happen in the Bible several times. 2 Thess. 2:15 tells us to follow oral tradition, and oral tradition tells us Mary was assumed into Heaven. Prayer to Mary (and all the other Saints) is asking them for prayer. I'm sure you ask your friends for prayer. That's exactly what Catholics (that understand their Faith) do.

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I don't hate Mary, however, I will never ever ever ever treat her like above God. If, assuming to you, I go to hell because of this, then so be it. However, this is not what the bible teaches us. And, please, forgive me, but I'll take what's written in The Word of God before anything any human will tell me, anyday, forever.

It's good you don't hate Mary.

1. We do not, do not, do NOT place her at or above the level of God. That would be a direct violation of the 10 Commandments and a violation of Christ's word "Call no man 'Father'", that would be idolatry.

2. You aren't going to Hell over this.

3. How about humans like Jesus and Paul, who told us about the use of oral tradition? We can tackle Sola Scriptura in another thread.

lizzie.christine wrote:

............... Why is this in the survey section?

maybe someone can't read properly......

meh i dont wanna argue this, but please mark show me the scripture where it says that Mary was assumed to Heaven. If there is none, then it did not happen. Such an important thing would be written, but it is not. If she then was not assumed to Heaven, she died.

The bible talks of God in 3 persons. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. There is no mother of God or anything like that, never was never will. Mary was the mother of the flesh of Christ. His body, not his perfect soul.

What's more... This only is a proof that Mary was not without sin, because she gave Christ the very flesh that is so easily corruptible and weak, by nature.

But tell you what, it's okay believe what you want. I dont care. I however, have long rejected catholicism because it is not what I see in the bible. To tell you the truth, I have way too often seen catholicism as a form of false religion that the NT warns us of.

And Mark, I love you, I do... But the next time you wanna argue with me about religion, please, oh please, read throughout the whole new testament first instead of giving me answers that others have told you. Don't read through some martyr saint stuff or whatever. Read specially what Jesus said and understand the context.

ah, anyways. im out

ps. I ask my friends for prayer because theyre alive. The saints and Mary are dead. d-e-a-d. The dead can not intercede for us. Only Christ, who is alive, can. A prayer to Mary is a prayer said to the wind. It goes nowhere.

btw, oral tradition tells me that i come from a monkey. I dont. do you? Obviously not... Then, if oral tradition can contain lies. What tells you that Mary was assumed? Nothing does. This is why scriptures are there. To be the rock solid base of our assumptions and our knowledge.

None of your arguments hold the line because they are not paralel to the Bible Mark. Look into the bible, forget what you've been told. Forget it. Look for yourself, seek into it. You'll find there are many things that dont converge with what youve been told since you could speak.

oh great...two places for christian discussions.

kinda should just stick to discussing this in the right thread.....

to be bitchy

It is the right thread, not the right sub-forum

Moved.

Wow there are a lot of sentences in that original post that disturb me.

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The Blessed Virgin Mary is free from all sin.
Therefore she never died. At her Assumpion,
She was taken body and soul into Heaven.

No one except for Jesus is/was without sin.
Who cares about what word was used.

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She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

...

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Those who hate Mother Mary will be damned.
Those who love her will be saved.

Loving Mary does NOT get you saved,
hating her is indeed a sin, but so is hating any person on earth.

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Pray to her and she will deliver you from sin,
with Christ in her arms.

It is NOT Mary who delivers me from sin.

I see and respect the importance of Mary, I can understand several reasons why people would follow Catholic teachings, but this is something I'll never understand.

Hero wrote:

meh i dont wanna argue this, but please mark show me the scripture where it says that Mary was assumed to Heaven. If there is none, then it did not happen. Such an important thing would be written, but it is not. If she then was not assumed to Heaven, she died.

Prophesied in Psalm 132:8 ""Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark." The Ark is Mary.

In 2 Kings 11-12, this happens to Elijah:
"11 And the guards, with drawn weapons,
lined up from the southern to the northern limit of the enclosure,
surrounding the altar and the temple on the king's behalf. 12
Then Jehoiada led out the king's son and put the crown and the insignia
upon him. They proclaimed him king and anointed him, clapping their
hands and shouting, "Long live the king!"Would Jesus do anything less for His mother?

2 Thess 2:15 states:
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the
traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a
letter of ours.Not everything Jesus said is recorded in the Bible. The Bible says so.

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The bible talks of God in 3 persons. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. There is no mother of God or anything like that, never was never will. Mary was the mother of the flesh of Christ. His body, not his perfect soul.

HERETIC. (Specifically, Nestorianism) (Mary is NOT a Member of the Trinity, by the way)

Mary is the Mother of God, the Theotokos, the God-Bearer. Christ cannot be God and Mary not be the Mother of God at the same time. You can't have it both ways. Christ's nature was not joined in synapheia but in hypostasis, and this view was condemned at the First Council of Ephesus in 431. If Mary only carried the body and not the soul of Christ, two questions:

1. Where did Christ get His soul then?
2. Why wasn't Christ stillborn, if He did not have a soul when in Mary's womb? You need a soul to be alive.

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What's more... This only is a proof that Mary was not without sin, because she gave Christ the very flesh that is so easily corruptible and weak, by nature.

That doesn't even follow. Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and Mary carried Christ, all God and all Man.

[But tell you what, it's okay believe what you want. I dont care. I however, have long rejected catholicism because it is not what I see in the bible. To tell you the truth, I have way too often seen catholicism as a form of false religion that the NT warns us of.[/quote]

What you believe is an extremely serious issue, not to be treated with apathy. If you have witnessed Catholics engaging in false religion, then that's a terrible tragedy.

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And Mark, I love you, I do... But the next time you wanna argue with me about religion, please, oh please, read throughout the whole new testament first instead of giving me answers that others have told you. Don't read through some martyr saint stuff or whatever. Read specially what Jesus said and understand the context.

I'm working on reading the NT.

1. Do Martyr Saints such as St. Paul count? Or should I ignore them because Paul wasn't Jesus?
2. OK, here's what Jesus says:

John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.Mary is our Mother. Revelation 12:17 follows this verse with:
17 Then the dragon became angry with
the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring,
those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

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ah, anyways. im out

Why? Are you afraid of being wrong?

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ps. I ask my friends for prayer because theyre alive. The saints and Mary are dead. d-e-a-d. The dead can not intercede for us. Only Christ, who is alive, can. A prayer to Mary is a prayer said to the wind. It goes nowhere.

The saints are ALIVE. A-L-I-V-E. Heaven is not the realm of the dead but of the living. We believe in the Communion of Saints, it's in the Apostle's Creed.
Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,Hebrews 12:1

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before usThe cloud of witnesses is "nephos marturon." They are not passive and dead, they are alive and watching us.
In Luke 15:7

7 I tell you, in just the same way
there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over
ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.The saints in Heaven KNOW what we are doing. Anyway, there's more, but this should cover it.

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btw, oral tradition tells me that i come from a monkey. I dont. do you? Obviously not... Then, if oral tradition can contain lies. What tells you that Mary was assumed? Nothing does. This is why scriptures are there. To be the rock solid base of our assumptions and our knowledge.

Don't be stupid. The Theory (not "wild guess" or "hypothesis" or "antichrist conspiracy") of Evolution is NOT oral tradition. Oral tradition is a form of public Revelation.

Luke 10:16
16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."Note that it says "Listen" not "read." The Bible is only part of Revelation, there is also oral tradition. It is equal and inseparable from Tradition. I'll say more later, I have to get going now.

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None of your arguments hold the line because they are not paralel to the Bible Mark. Look into the bible, forget what you've been told. Forget it. Look for yourself, seek into it. You'll find there are many things that dont converge with what youve been told since you could speak.

Hmm, this is in the Christian Discussion forum, not the Theology section

Mark wrote:

HERETIC.

Call me whatever you want, little man.

arguing is futile 90% of the time no matter the circumstances with no matter who.

Here, it is 100% futile with you.

You make assumptions that are not biblical (by giving mary more importance than she really diserves.) I'm not afraid of being wrong, I just don't wanna waste my time with a little angry kid.

There is nothing you can tell me, ever, that can change my mind on catholicism.
e-v-e-r. So, really, go play outside. Don't waste your time with the stupid pathetic heretic that I am

I call you heretic to bring you to realization of how wrong you are with your Christology. Now get back into the debate, or you're going to make me think you are dishonest. I waste my time all the time arguing with angry people, return the favor.

Hero wrote:

Mark wrote:

HERETIC.

Call me whatever you want, little man.

arguing is futile 90% of the time no matter the circumstances with no matter who.

Here, it is 100% futile with you.

You make assumptions that are not biblical (by giving mary more importance than she really diserves.) I'm not afraid of being wrong, I just don't wanna waste my time with a little angry kid.

There is nothing you can tell me, ever, that can change my mind on catholicism.
e-v-e-r. So, really, go play outside. Don't waste your time with the stupid pathetic heretic that I am

that was childish and patronizing.


I wonder why you even bother if it such a waste of your time?

Mark you totally misread that verse...mary didnt sin when jesus came into her, it was jsut supernatural, taht in no way means she didnt sin at any other point

Keep it civilized!!

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Mark you totally misread that verse...mary didnt sin when jesus came into her, it was jsut supernatural, taht in no way means she didnt sin at any other point

What verse are you talking about? The "full of grace" verse, which, if you read the Greek, uses the same word to describe Mary being full of grace and Jesus being full of grace?

Now why would the Mother of God have a sinful nature? Would God choose someone stained with sin to carry His son? Or someone with a perfect soul? Use logic. God saved Mary from having original sin.

The Assumption of Mary and Immaculate Conception were not even canonized and proclaimed infallible dogma until 150 years ago under Pope Pius IX.

Catholics shouldn't really get bent out of shape over people being skeptical over these doctrines or outright rejecting them. When you proclaim something that has no other outside proof than yourself, or when an organization proclaims something that there is zero proof of, and the only proof there is is what they themselves said, then people are naturally going to be skeptical. When stuff like this is proclaimed, there needs to be a source other than the one who proclaimed it, or else it will not be taken seriously. This, however, doesn't just go for Catholics. It goes for everyone. When you make an outrageous claim, people will by nature be skeptical at first, but when you show them some proof outside of yourself, they will begin to maybe consider your claim. But when you claim something and say that you yourself are proof, then don't get upset when people scoff and ridicule you for making a ridiculous claim.

[quote="Mark"]

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Now why would the Mother of God have a sinful nature?

For ALL have sinned and falen short of the glory of God

Notice the word ALL there

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Would God choose someone stained with sin to carry His son?

God many times uses people that are not really fit for the job, to show his glory.

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Or someone with a perfect soul?

there is no such thing, but even if there was, it would make tons more sense to be carried inn the sinner, becuase that is GODS nature Use logic.

Broc, I know that infallibility over the issues wasn't exercised until relatively recently, but I don't see how that affects anything.

I understand that people will get confused and skeptical about our doctrine, but this is usually because they don't understand it or sometimes don't want to understand it out of fear or hate. I'm hoping that most skeptics are honest.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Mark wrote:

Quote :

Now why would the Mother of God have a sinful nature?

For ALL have sinned and falen short of the glory of God

Notice the word ALL there

I'm going to quote someone at you because they put it better than I could.

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Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to
prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all
are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not
herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned
us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the
mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This
is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this
rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek
word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes")
shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is
because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to
heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).
Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this
proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread
to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).
Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses
"polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of
course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject
God.
Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings
are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of
the verse.
Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches
that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.
Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have
fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful
people "good."
Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt.
12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says
no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they
sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by
being spared by God from original sin.
Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate
Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in
the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a
Savior as much as the rest of humanity.
Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God.
For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is
a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows
us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

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God many times uses people that are not really fit for the job, to show his glory.

This isn't ruling a kingdom or being a prophet. This is carry Jesus, the Word, the second person of the Holy Trinity, GOD, in you.

there is no such thing, but even if there was, it would make tons more sense to be carried inn the sinner, becuase that is GODS nature Use logic.[/quote]

No, it would not make any sense for a sinner to be the Theotokos. God is logic, He created the laws of logic. Something illogical is illogical, period. It's not subjective.

Mar, we are all born into sin, so Mary had sinned when see was born, to be without God is a sin in itself..... so how do you explain teh sinnig of Mary before god "saved her from sinning" which i think is false as well, but thats another argument

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Mar, we are all born into sin, so Mary had sinned when see was born, to be without God is a sin in itself..... so how do you explain teh sinnig of Mary before god "saved her from sinning" which i think is false as well, but thats another argument

What in the world are you talking about!? Mary was filled with God's saving grace from the moment of conception. MetL, going to be brutally honest, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. She was never without God, no, she was always with God.