bee_rad wrote:

Vigilance Saints Arise wrote:

The Queen of Heaver and Earth:

Hail holy Queen, Mother of Mercy. Hail our life our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To you do we send up our sighs, morning and weeping in this vail of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy tward us.
And after this our exile, show onto us the blessed Fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Oh clement, oh lovely, oh sweet Virgin Mary, pray for us oh Holy Mother of
God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Idolatry. God is the only being we are to worship. Not any human. Mary is the mother of Jesus' human body (God incarnate), not the "Mother of God".

It depends on how you take it. You are created in the image and likness of God.
Yet you are not God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who is the God - Man.
His true Mother. Yet she did not create God. Jesus is her Son, and she said "Let it be done to me according to Thy Word." And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Mary did not create God. We know this!

eternalmystery wrote:

The Assumption of Mary and Immaculate Conception were not even canonized and proclaimed infallible dogma until 150 years ago under Pope Pius IX.

Catholics shouldn't really get bent out of shape over people being skeptical over these doctrines or outright rejecting them. When you proclaim something that has no other outside proof than yourself, or when an organization proclaims something that there is zero proof of, and the only proof there is is what they themselves said, then people are naturally going to be skeptical. When stuff like this is proclaimed, there needs to be a source other than the one who proclaimed it, or else it will not be taken seriously. This, however, doesn't just go for Catholics. It goes for everyone. When you make an outrageous claim, people will by nature be skeptical at first, but when you show them some proof outside of yourself, they will begin to maybe consider your claim. But when you claim something and say that you yourself are proof, then don't get upset when people scoff and ridicule you for making a ridiculous claim.

The immaculate conception was not the conception of Christ, FYI. It was the conception of Mary.
Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

See, You make the assumption that Pope Pius just decided to get up and dictate theology on a whim. This stuff simply does not happen like you make it sound like.

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

TAKE NOTE: Sinless DOES NOT MEAN perfect. She was free from sin, but far from perfect. There is more to perfection than being sinless. Her soul was created without the inclusion of original sin.

The fact that Scripture is not explicit at every point makes many Christians feel some reserve about prescriptive definitions concerning Mary.

HOWEVER:At the Annunciation, the angel sent by God salutes Mary as "full of grace" (Lk. 1:28), indicating her unique freedom from sin

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Those who would hold that it is supposed to read "highly favored daughter" or some variant of that should note that is an even looser translation. These translations give the impression that the favor bestowed on Mary, the most blessed of all women, was no different from that given to other highly favored women in the Bible, such as her relative Elizabeth.

Now, I'll address this: "My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior"

Sinless though she was, Mary was still a member of the fallen race, therefore she too needed a savior. To save men from their sins is a great mercy of God. To save Mary from ever sinning was an even greater mercy, which only God could bestow. She was by her nature subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, at her conception, she was preserved from the stain of original sin, possessed of grace at every instant She was therefore redeemed by the Savior, but in a special way,

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

Now , I'll address Romans 3:23, where Paul says "all have sinned"

This argument does not hold if we think about a child below the age of reason, who is not mature enough to sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the intention to sin. Should a child, or a fetus for that matter, die before ever committing an actual sin, then none of his actions can bring him under the above interpretation of Romans 3:23. Paul's words to the Romans could be taken to mean that everyone is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary. However, even though Mary was subject to original sin, she was preserved from every kind of effect that original sin could have in the human person.

Marian doctrine is not only about Mary. It expresses the fundamental Christian truth of salvation through Jesus Christ. Thus the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception shows how God's grace sanctified Mary to be fit for her role as Mother of the Savior. Rather than exalting Mary to an equal plane with her Son, it emphasizes her dependency on Him. The Son of God existed before His Mother and so was in a position to choose who His Mother should be, and being God, there was no limit to his power to give her anything.

Olias,

Thanks, your points solidify what some of the rest of us have said.

This reminds me that I want to get back to more of Broc's points, as they touch uopon things that can easily be misunderstood by non-Catholics and even many Catholics (like the assumption that if something was formally declatred dcotrine at a certain poitn, it was essentially not considered true until this point--that is a common but serious misconception).

I'll come back and address his points before long.

graybeardheadbanger

If anybody has anymore questions concerning catholicism, you can ask me. I'll be the resident hardcore catholic. I know a lot, because my dad used to be a southern baptism-cum-pentecostal, and the converts tend to be the better catholics. I myself was raised catholic. I left the faith to become a muslim. And later I was an atheist, but then I just sort of gravitated back to my faith in Christ. Didn't even plan it, just sort of realized I was Christian after much soul searching.

olias wrote:

If anybody has anymore questions concerning catholicism, you can ask me. I'll be the resident hardcore catholic.

I thought it was clear that a number of us already filled that role.


I grew up Nazarene, drifted into skepticism/agnositicsm followed by non-religious theism, with some attraction toward Buddhism (for which I still have much respect), but never practiced per se. I came back to unaffiliated Christianity, and eventually joined an Eastern rite Catholic church, though I normally attend RC now with my wife. I agree with what you say about convertts generally knowing more--I'm very disheartened by the lack of knowledge of many cradle catholics.

I will caution you that I do find some Catholic apologetics approaches a mixed bag--there is much great stuff out there, but I've discovered they often don't address the best counterarguments, something I've been called on before myself. I also always remind people of the Orthodox and other ancient faiths, which I think pose the more difficult cases for Cathooic apologists. My approach is generally to show the Catholic position to be plausible, rather than to argue that it is dro-dead clear--though I certainly agree that it holds the strongest position. But keep in mind that doctrine involves a matter of faith, which means that it can only be shown to be compatible with reason, and not proven by it--therefore, Catholicism cannot strictly speaking be "proven" true, but can only shown to be a good candidate for truth. At some point, the Spirit must move on htose with an open heart to bring them more formally into the particulars of faith--something I believe has already been facilitated by the grace of baptism for those coming from otehr Christian backgrounds.

graybeardheadbanger

if we must explain our background, then I might aswell.

I grew up in Montreal. I was raised with christian values (pentecostal). As a kid I encountered some "divine" things that I still remember that made it impossible for me to completely deny the existence of God later in my life when I rebelled.

What happened is that as I grew up around other christians in different churches, it soon made no sense to me. It was... traditions... routine. There was no life. There was only theory, if you will. Teachings about God and all, but nothing really tangible. God just was not moving in those churches.

I was severely depressed for most of my teen age years. Man-made traditions (basically, religion) could do nothing for me. One night I went with my sister to a new place (I quit church all together for 1-2 years before going there for the first time) and the prophet there lay hands on me and I felt God like never before. Instantly there were many demons who stopped tormenting me. I was delivered of depression. My life became much clearer as God showed himself to me. Not through vain traditions. But through The Holy Spirit moving in my life.

I came from this dormant, zombie state, going to a relatively dead church where God was not moving, to searching always more of God. Not through our intellect. Not through our traditions. But seeking for what He likes and does not. I wanted Him, only Him. I didn't want anything man-made because I've been deceived by humans enough for a life time already.

This search for Him brought me far away from religion as we know it. He brought me to the poor, to those in need. Just as His Words states: 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. in James 1:27

God did not only bring me away from religion, He commissioned me (and many, many others) to repair the mess that it had made over the centuries. All the things that were said in the name of God that were untrue need to be broken. All the stereotypes, basically everything that is not 100% from God.

I respect you all as humans. But the True Religion is in the heart. Not in the traditions.

Hero wrote:

if we must explain our background, then I might aswell.

I grew up in Montreal. I was raised with christian values (pentecostal). As a kid I encountered some "divine" things that I still remember that made it impossible for me to completely deny the existence of God later in my life when I rebelled.

What happened is that as I grew up around other christians in different churches, it soon made no sense to me. It was... traditions... routine. There was no life. There was only theory, if you will. Teachings about God and all, but nothing really tangible. God just was not moving in those churches.

I was severely depressed for most of my teen age years. Man-made traditions (basically, religion) could do nothing for me. One night I went with my sister to a new place (I quit church all together for 1-2 years before going there for the first time) and the prophet there lay hands on me and I felt God like never before. Instantly there were many demons who stopped tormenting me. I was delivered of depression. My life became much clearer as God showed himself to me. Not through vain traditions. But through The Holy Spirit moving in my life.

I came from this dormant, zombie state, going to a relatively dead church where God was not moving, to searching always more of God. Not through our intellect. Not through our traditions. But seeking for what He likes and does not. I wanted Him, only Him. I didn't want anything man-made because I've been deceived by humans enough for a life time already.

This search for Him brought me far away from religion as we know it. He brought me to the poor, to those in need. Just as His Words states: 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. in James 1:27

God did not only bring me away from religion, He commissioned me (and many, many others) to repair the mess that it had made over the centuries. All the things that were said in the name of God that were untrue need to be broken. All the stereotypes, basically everything that is not 100% from God.

I respect you all as humans. But the True Religion is in the heart. Not in the traditions.

I've never heard you share some of this, and I am glad God seems to have brought you much healing. I hope you are open to the stories of those within Catholicism who give testimony to similar work of God in their lives, with the aid of the sacraments, particularly confession (reconciliation) and communion. I would also cuation against setting up faith and intellect and tradition as a dichotomy (or, trichotomy )--these things can work WITH one another. It's not necessarily either-or. Remember, Paul himself speaks of certain traditions positively. What the traditions are, in many ways, an identity of those who have gone before us in modellling the life of Christ. They are a science of holienss, if you will. Since the Spirit works in history, the Spirit can be present in traditions.

Peace, graybeardheadbanger

traditions in itself is not necessarily bad. I put too much emphasis on this term in my previous post. The problem is that many traditions are man-made. The touch of man in God's Church has corrupted it. To some extent, it even made it deviate quite a bit, imho.

Bottom line if what I'm trying to say is that we need to seek God with all our hearts. If we try to please others before pleasing God, we are in error/sinning.

Jesus was a pious jew...religious.

Yes, Jesus was pious. But he got crucified, right? By those those who were indoctrinated in false religion/man made traditions. Seeking their well being before others. Those who Jesus spoke against. The evil spirits that worked through those men are still working today through others. Those persons are the pious amongst men. They like to parade and act all holy, but Jesus warned us of what would happen to the hypocrites.

Don't be a pleb. that is a complete strawman and you know it. If you took 5 seconds to think about it, you'd figure out that peoples actions aren't inherint in any belief. By that logic, I am committing all sorts atrocities because I am catholic, and catholics have been implicit in all sorts of things, right? Seriously, that is very stale formula that is contradicted by many striking truths.

Uh?

If some catholics rape kids and condemn people to hell because they refuse to tithe, it doesn't make you guilty. Unless you agree and support such things. If only that was the only problem... sadly it's not. Many things I strongly disagree with reside in the roots of the catholic doctrine. Many of those were already spoken about in this thread. I'm not really here to argue anymore anyways.

Hero wrote:

If only that was the only problem... sadly it's not.

What do you mean by that? That I am a rapist and that the church approves of this? Are you braindead, or do you actually believe that I approve. I need not say that the numbers of molestations is highly questionable, or that the number of protestant pastors who have done the same is higher than that of the catholics.

Well, it just so happens that I think that many of the things I think are wrong lie within Protestant roots (i.e. Martin Luther and his changes to the bible to suit his heretical theology.)

If you don't want to debate, than don't post. It seems to me like you do, otherwise you wouldn't keep posting. But I am here to inform, not argue, so please, tell me what you have been fed about the catholic church so I can tell you the real truth.

olias wrote:

Hero wrote:

If only that was the only problem... sadly it's not.

What do you mean by that? That I am a rapist and that the church approves of this? Are you braindead, or do you actually believe that I approve. I need not say that the numbers of molestations is highly questionable, or that the number of protestant pastors who have done the same is higher than that of the catholics.

Well, it just so happens that I think that many of the things I think are wrong lie within Protestant roots (i.e. Martin Luther and his changes to the bible to suit his heretical theology.)

If you don't want to debate, than don't post. It seems to me like you do, otherwise you wouldn't keep posting. But I am here to inform, not argue, so please, tell me what you have been fed about the catholic church so I can tell you the real truth.

Olias, I appreciate your zeal for Catholic belief, and realize it takes awhile to get a sense of how to most effectively respond to various posters, based on their background, personality, familiarity with certain topics, etc. I caution you, however, that some of your approach here may be counterproductive.
If something is true, a careful, polite (even if at times powerful) articulation of the points will make the case for itself---although it is easy to get caught up in clashes, etc. and it's happened to me at times in the past as well, keep in mind that most people here, for all their human obstacles, etc. (which we all have) genuinely desire to do what is right and love God. It helps to remember that people may have some theological errors (in our estimation) but still be closer to God than those with mre correct theology. Speak the truth, confidently, and boldly, but also with a desire to engender charity, and to respect the love of truth that most here, as well as they are able, exhibit. Sure, those making statements against Catholicism sometimes could do better in these things themselves, but I am confident that where people love God, in time evidence will speak for itself, if spoken carefully and in love.

Peaqce, graybeardheadbanger

Yeah, I know, I am sorry if I am bit of a hothead, but I just get annoyed when people say things with such vitriol about the Church. I'll behave.

olias wrote:

Yeah, I know, I am sorry if I am bit of a hothead, but I just get annoyed when people say things with such vitriol about the Church. I'll behave.

It's all good, bro.

graybeardheadbanger

olias wrote:

Hero wrote:

If only that was the only problem... sadly it's not.

What do you mean by that? That I am a rapist and that the church approves of this? Are you braindead, or do you actually believe that I approve. I need not say that the numbers of molestations is highly questionable, or that the number of protestant pastors who have done the same is higher than that of the catholics.

Well, it just so happens that I think that many of the things I think are wrong lie within Protestant roots (i.e. Martin Luther and his changes to the bible to suit his heretical theology.)

If you don't want to debate, than don't post. It seems to me like you do, otherwise you wouldn't keep posting. But I am here to inform, not argue, so please, tell me what you have been fed about the catholic church so I can tell you the real truth.

You put words in my mouth like no one else ever did...

I don't really know what your problem is tbh. You try to cover up the mess that religion has done but I'm really wondering why. If something is wrong, don't associate yourself with it. It's just as simple as that.

To get back on what was previously said, the bigger problems of catholicism are the twisted truths in the roots of it's doctrine. Many things that were preached and kept people into slavery for years.

You think you know a lot, young man. But if you knew how bad catholicism raped us here (figuratively, although physical rapes certainly did happen), you would hide in shame (if you still wanted to associate yourself with it).

Most of the issues were already addressed in this thread. But to name a few, people here were taught that they needed to be poor. They were told that sex was inherently wrong. They were taught a bunch of falsehoods and twisted truths. Jesus delivers. Catholics did all the opposite here. Following this logic, Jesus was not with them. But that may be just where I live. Though I doubt it.

To tell you the truth, I'm not gonna act like I'm full of wisdom, cause I am not (and I advise you not to believe that you are full of wisdom, either ). But I know enough to be against it. Praying Mary is one thing, following other man made traditions is another, in the end it's just drawing people away from God because it is spiritually dead. Whens the last time you saw people being healed miraculously at a catholic mass? Cause such things happens when God testifies for those who preach His Word in Truth.

And it's not just catholics. It's any religion in the world that is just a bunch of traditions used to gain power over people. I tend to stay away from junk food and go right for the healthy stuff. I want Jesus. That's all.

Please don't be too offended although I know you'll be. We can simply agree to disagree and it'll be fine. If you don't... well, too bad.

P.S. When talking about the catholic church, you might wanna type it with a lower "c". Simply because The Church of Christ is scattered amongst the world and is not only the roman catholic church.

[quote="Hero"][quote="olias"]

Hero wrote:

If only that was the only problem... sadly it's not.

You put words in my mouth like no one else ever did...

I don't really know what your problem is tbh. You try to cover up the mess that religion has done but I'm really wondering why. If something is wrong, don't associate yourself with it.

Because while some people within a system may do wrong, we believe the chruch herself teaches what is right. We wouldn't abandon something we believe in essence is correct because certain people aqffiliated with it fail. Did Paul tell believers in Corinthians to leave the Church because some were living in sin? No. On this reasoning, there would be no church, only individual, isolated believers, because any group of people will fall short in its behavior at some point.

Quote :

To get back on what was previously said, the bigger problems of catholicism are the twisted truths in the roots of it's doctrine.

I'm not clear on what these are. I think they've actually been explained fairly well.

Quote :

Many things that were preached and kept people into slavery for years.

You think you know a lot, young man. But if you knew how bad catholicism raped us here (figuratively, although physical rapes certainly did happen), you would hide in shame (if you still wanted to associate yourself with it).

I am ashamed by what some in the Church have done. But the Church is more than them--it also includes centuries of saints, martyrs, etc.

Quote :

Most of the issues were already addressed in this thread. But to name a few, people here were taught that they needed to be poor. They were told that sex was inherently wrong.

These have never been church teachings. I tend to think you are seriously misrepresneting what swome priest or other allegedly said, but even if not,
they certainly do not represent Catholic "doctrine." In fact, Pope JP II had much praise for sex in his written work on the theology of the body.

It may be true that at times in history ythe Church seem to think that the celibate life may be superior. Still, sex was never deemed "wrong"--in fact, marriage is a sacrament for Catholics (and Orthodox).

Quote :

To tell you the truth, I'm not gonna act like I'm full of wisdom, cause I am not (and I advise you not to believe that you are full of wisdom, either ). But I know enough to be against it. Praying Mary is one thing, following other man made traditions is another, in the end it's just drawing people away from God because it is spiritually dead. Whens the last time you saw people being healed miraculously at a catholic mass?

The main purpose of Mass is not to heal, but to worship God., However, there are many Cathooics who have been the recipients of well documented miracles, and I have met people who claim to have been beneficiaries of such (and who attribute Mary's help as well--there was one woman in a discussion group my wife and I attend who was diagnozed with advanced breast cancer--as they prepared her for surgery, she said she asked Mary for help to cope with it--and when they went to do the surgery, they found nothing. They double checked--NOTHING. Her doctor was a lackluster Catholic and said the experience really affected him. I don't know her well, but I doubt she has reason to lie.

Quote :

Cause such things happens when God testifies for those who preach His Word in Truth.

And it's not just catholics. It's any religion in the world that is just a bunch of traditions used to gain power over people. I tend to stay away from junk food and go right for the healthy stuff. I want Jesus. That's all.

Although there are people in all instituions with power issues, traditions have nothing to do with gaining power over people. This kind of suspicion actually gains credence in hhistorial and sociological explanations alrgely do the influence of Marxism and related post-modern ideas, with roots in people like Schopenhauer and the like. The reduction
of everything to power motives is too simplistic for my taste, though it does apply in some cases.
And once again, honoring others does not detract from Jesus...but I think this has been sufficiently explained already.

Quote :

P.S. When talking about the catholic church, you might wanna type it with a lower "c". Simply because The Church of Christ is scattered amongst the world and is not only the roman catholic church.

We use Catholic (capital C) to make it clear that we are speaking of the particular tradition known as Catholicism. But Catholics are called that because they traditionally understand themselves to be the universal represnetative of Christian belief. Something must define belief--who decides what the essential beliefs are, or how to interpret the SAcriptures, or waht the Scriptures are, for that matter? But Catholicism itself plainly teaches that there aree Christians who do not ostensibly identify themselves as "Catholic." In any case, I'm glad that you think the RC is "among" the church of Christ, since you said they are not the "only" ones---so you are not excluding them, which is good to know.

graybeardheadbanger

I agree with Hero to an extent.

You cannot deny all the past harm Catholicism and those in the Catholic Church have done..... There is nothing you can say that can alter that fact.

Now none of us to blame for past things done by others in our form of Religion, but seriously can you see why many people detest the Catholic faith?
People who abused the name of God and hid behind power and lies were rife in the Catholic church, so much damage was done... and not much progress has been made to show genuine compassion from those in high leadership.

Even now things that have been cropping up from the past keep being shushed with money or a general apology..... It has happened here in Australia... I'll provide any links . evidence, stories you need.

That is why I am not open to letting this brand of faith have any influence on me, you can tell whats going on with someone/something by its fruit.

In pentecostal movements far out if you sin or stuff up its RIGHT there in the open for everyone to see! ba bow for you if you stuff up, your taken down from leadership and encouraged to seek counsel. That is healthy! yes alot of pentecostal stuff can be absolute hogwash but most of these are found out and you see what happens to them.



Olias I am glad you have come back to Christ but I must say, you are very zealous yes, but a cool head is better than a hot one. Respect those who have been around a bit longer hey.


graybeard, you are a lovely person and I love how you portray your faith and your beliefs in a well thought out and non attacking way, I'd love to see your whole faith be as open minded and even keeled as you are.

therockismighty wrote:

I agree with Hero to an extent.
You cannot deny all the past harm Catholicism and those in the Catholic Church have done..... There is nothing you can say that can alter that fact.

...so much damage was done... and not much progress has been made to show genuine compassion from those in high leadership.

Pope benedict has done many acts of goodness, and Pope John Paul the Great had much to do with the downfall of communism. The Catholic Church especially was the reason Communism fell in Poland.Every priest I ever had (as a military brat, I have moved around a lot) has been an especially compassionate and loving and devoted to the faith.Don't fall prey to the media's portayal of the Catholic clergy as cold calculating men who only want the perks (which are largely nonexistant in physical form, but highly abundant in the spiritual form)

therockismighty wrote:

Even now things that have been cropping up from the past keep being shushed with money or a general apology..... It has happened here in Australia... I'll provide any links . evidence, stories you need.

The good done in the Catholic Church far outweighs the bad. In fact, much of the bad done by the Church has largely been exaggerated by the press. One time, Fr. Jose (a priest I used to have) brought an article about some allegation against the Catholic church. It was marked up almost completely with highlighter were details about the faith were misrepresented.[/quote]

therockismighty wrote:

That is why I am not open to letting this brand of faith have any influence on me, you can tell whats going on with someone/something by its fruit.

If you never question your faith, is it truly faith, or merely insurance for the poor man to slide along on till death. This isn't a healthy attitude, and I invite you to attend a mass and speak with a priest about these issues you raised.

If I wasn't an open minded person why would I read and bother to reply to this thread????
I am interested in what you have to say but I do not have to change my core faith, views and values to be 'open minded', its taken years and many trials- testing of faith etc to come to this point and God is very evident in my life in all aspects.... why mess with that.

All I am concerned is what is God's will for me and actually walking in it and doing it. He has not lead me to Catholicism ever, but I do find it interesting and thank those for expanding on what it is and how it works.

I do not have to like or embrace the Catholic faith, but I do have to love those who are brothers in sisters in Christ.

I have been. What about you?

sorry changed post^^

yes I have been a couple times, did not appeal to me at all, I like to shout my praise to God as well as have times of reflection and prayer etc.

And thats ok

To each his own, if that is what you think is right, I support you and God bless you for it. But just be aware of what Orthodoxy is, instead of just thinking you know what it is and letting it be. Knowledge is power.

If I am overzealous, sorry. It's my personality. I get it from my parents.

I am aware mate, acutely aware.... Knowledge is indeed power but also puffs someone up.

Zealousness is ok, the wisdom behind its use is the key.