In order to prevent derailing the Varg thread in Secular Metal, here we go:

The Bible is replete (especially in the Old Testament) with certain types of killing that God justifies, such as wiping out whole cities when He commands the Israelites to possess the Promised Land in the book of Joshua, and when He institutes the death penalty for certain offenses against the Law (or Torah), in the first 5 books of the Bible. Murder and adultery are a couple of examples you can find.

Others have said that no killing is justified, due to the command "Thou shalt not kill." Does God contradict himself?

Peace,

Jeff

This is a very good question Gothdad. I don’t believe God is contradicting Himself. The correct translation of the 6th commandment to me is Thou shall not murder. There is a difference between murdering and killing. Murdering to me is the unjustified taking of a human life, where as killing in the examples you gave in Joshua was commanded by God. Therefore it would be justified in God’s eyes. Murder is always condemned in the bible, but where as commanded by God it becomes justified because God commanded it.

This is seriously absurd. To you all believe in abortion?!

Mikey Erasmus wrote:

This is seriously absurd. To you all believe in abortion?!

Why is abortion relevant to the discussion?

Peace,

Jeff

you support killing people because you don't want them here............and you also DON'T support kill people because you don't want them here, is this correct?

Mikey Erasmus wrote:

you support killing people because you don't want them here............and you also DON'T support kill people because you don't want them here, is this correct?

And how does this help you to understand how GOD tells the Israelites to kill every person in many of the neighboring pagan cultures in the book of Joshua? Or when he says that the life of a murderer is forfeit, and he is to be killed?

Did God contradict Himself?

Peace,

Jeff

GothDad wrote:

Others have said that no killing is justified, due to the command "Thou shalt not kill." Does God contradict himself?

I shall take this one step further and pose this question [as a follow up to GD's question of vast perplexity and theological mindbogglingly insanity that is easily answered should one actually read their bible and understand what it says about murder/death/slaughtering those who deny God, etc..etc.. ad infinitum]:

Since Hate is murder in God's eyes and God hates all Evil and man is inherently Evil due to his sinful nature; does God then Contradict his own self by holding Himself to His own Law? If yes, why, if no why?

Please be sure to also define Righteous Hate of man for the rest of us when explaining your viewpoint.

I feel i need to be specific here when asking for a definite "definition" of Hate due to so many people [not here, just people in general] thinking that liberties are allowed to be taken with the Word of God.

How can i explain it? Of course it's a contradiction in the bible between the vengeful nature of God in the Old testament and the passive nature of God exhibited in the old testament (don't open up another argument about that statement...it's full of controversy). I just tend to believe that God's character is compassion and love and harmony....i just couldn't see it being justified by him to kill others for any reason. I mean....that's all there is to it to me. We could argue all day over it.....it's a subject that draws a lot of people away from God.

Here some thoughts to go on...

Mark:12
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Do you believe that God is a God of justice, if you do then you don't need to worry for the future for the future will worry about itself.

If you don't follow the most important commandment said by Jesus himself, to 'Love your neighbor as yourself ' saying that people should be put to death aren't you showing hate rather than love.

1 Samual 24:12 May the LORD judge between you and me. And may the LORD avenge the wrongs you have done to me, but my hand will not touch you.

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

I think your are so quick to Judge, so quick to condemn and not too easy to forgive when they are not Christians.

I dont think GothDad is supporting killing in general, I think it is merely something to think about. food for thought if you want to use that term.

with that said, I find it very interesting. On this topic the way I see it....murder and killing are technically different.

Killing is simply killing, while murder is killing with evil intent.

For example if an intruder breaks in your house and puts you or your family in danger, and you shoot him...are you a murderer? You did not have evil intent in your heart, but you were merely taking care of your family as commanded by God.

I think the intentions of the heart are taken into account here. Now this doesnt mean I want to take a life, nor have I, just a thought.

Mikey Erasmus wrote:

How can i explain it? Of course it's a contradiction in the bible between the vengeful nature of God in the Old testament and the passive nature of God exhibited in the old testament (don't open up another argument about that statement...it's full of controversy). I just tend to believe that God's character is compassion and love and harmony....i just couldn't see it being justified by him to kill others for any reason. I mean....that's all there is to it to me.

This is a prime example of someone who doesn't like the fact that God is not PC in the eyes of the 21st Century Western mindset, so they have to reinvent who God is in order to make Him more "acceptable" to society, when in fact, the core of the faith, the Gospel, is meant to contradict everything about society, both in the 1st Century and now.

Funny that you claim the OT is a contradiction of the new, because when you actually sit down for hours and study it, you will in fact find that the NT is a fulfillment of the OT.

Fact: the OT took place in a period of time sometime between the 27th and 6th Centuries BC. Society did not operate then like it does now. One good reason why God commanded capital punishment is because there were no maximum security prisons to put the offenders in. There was nowhere to hold them or sentence them to a prison term of any sort. They were not just going to let them wander around with the potential to hurt people.

Take off the 21st Century PC Western glasses, and connect yourself with the historical context of that era, and it will all fall into place and make perfect sense.

And yes, murder is technically the unlawful taking of life. Capital punishment is not murder, because it is lawful. Murder = Unlawful, Capital punishment for criminal offenders = lawful. Massive difference between the two.

Quote :

We could argue all day over it.....it's a subject that draws a lot of people away from God.

The reason why people reject God is because of the flawed human will that refuses Him, not because they can't process it intellectually.

I mean think about it. Personally in my life, everyone I have talked to that claimed to have been repulsed by the nature of God in the OT were repulsed because their own preconceived notions of who they think God should be were violated when His true nature (Him being holy and just) were revealed to them. The problem is not the intellect, but the will.

Mikey Erasmus wrote:

How can i explain it? Of course it's a contradiction in the bible between the vengeful nature of God in the Old testament and the passive nature of God exhibited in the old testament (don't open up another argument about that statement...it's full of controversy). I just tend to believe that God's character is compassion and love and harmony....i just couldn't see it being justified by him to kill others for any reason. I mean....that's all there is to it to me. We could argue all day over it.....it's a subject that draws a lot of people away from God.

It is true that God’s character does have compassion and love and harmony, but there are more to God’s nature than these. One attribute of his nature that is often overlooked is His Sovereignty. Either He is God or not. Who am I to question His authority? God doesn’t answer to anyone. Since God told the Israelites to go down and kill the inhabitants of a certain land as stated in Joshua, there was a reason. I believe that God always has our best interest at heart. His ways are higher than ours. God had a plan for the Israelites and I see this as fulfilling this plan. There are lots of things I don’t understand about the nature of God, such as why would God allow His Son to die for me. I would be hard pressed to try to understand the depths of God’s love for mankind. My finite mind cannot comprehend this, but what I do comprehend is this. God is God, and while I don’t understand all of why God did things in the Bible, I don’t question His Sovereignty. It is too easy to only look at one facet of God’s nature and not the other. Sometimes it is enough to be still and know that He is God.

eternalmystery wrote:

And yes, murder is technically the unlawful taking of life. Capital punishment is not murder, because it is lawful. Murder = Unlawful, Capital punishment for criminal offenders = lawful. Massive difference between the two.

Government =/= God.

crushthehorns wrote:

eternalmystery wrote:

And yes, murder is technically the unlawful taking of life. Capital punishment is not murder, because it is lawful. Murder = Unlawful, Capital punishment for criminal offenders = lawful. Massive difference between the two.

Government =/= God.

bingo. And Broc, calling me PC over and over again..........you're confusing politically correct with socially conscious and progressive. If that makes you mad and concerned for me, then go ahead and think of me as a heretic and leave it at that. I'd be disgusted to call myself a Christian if that meant that I couldn't question things and have my own personal arguments with God....everyone does it, it helps you learn and grow....God reveals himself to me that way. some people are just more secretive and more ashamed about their questions. Jesus loves me a lot, I serve Him they way He moves me to do. That's all i need. Call me a heretic.

To throw another tangent into this, is it not odd that the same God who required His people to practice capital punishment (in this case dealing with murder), let various killers go. There was Cain, Moses, David. Yes, they all paid a price for their actions, but not with their own lives.

The issue, however, is whether God is justified when He chooses to kill, or when He commands others to kill, since Mikey wants us to believe that killing is NEVER justified.

If your standard is the Bible, how do you reconcile God's command to kill or His own removal of certain people from this life, in view of your own beliefs that it's somehow never justified?

Peace,

Jeff

Up here in Canada, we do not have the death penalty, and I am sure that political/legal/social reality affects my point of view.

I personally believe that God is 'justified' in His commands. He is sovereign. I also hold that capital punishment is/was a legitimate form of punishment as allowed by God to the Israelites. According to Numb 35:31 there are criminals which "deserves to die".

But does that mean because it was justified back then, it is justified today? If we as a society can say yes it does, why do we only use it in cases of murder when the Old Testament scriptures allow 19 other crimes to deserve the death penalty? Can we say we follow biblical precedent if we pick and choose what crimes are deserving death? If God has decreed various activities deserve the strongest penalty, why do we as a society say that we will only pick this one as deserving, and exclude the rest?

I hope that my questions do not come across as antagonistic, as I would like to hear reasoned responses to my questions. Like I stated above, I live in a country that does not have the death penalty (like Norway) and honestly do not see that it is needed for justice to be served. I am sure that my stance is partially formed by my country's stance, and having lived all my years in this political/legal/social climate.

I will also add that I can see where Mickey Erasmus is coming from, as I also see the abortion/death penalty being related. But I wonder if we ALL let our emotional sensibilities rule in cases like this instead of seeing the bigger picture of God being the Author of life. He gives it, and He can take it away.

I think your response brings up good points about political perspective vs. Biblical perspective.

Neither the U.S. nor Canada exist as theocratic governments. While they may pay an homage, of sorts, to the notion of jurisprudence as provided the Mosaic Law (or Torah) in the Bible, they certainly have freed themselves (in the case of the U.S., via the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, of which I'm sure Canada has some similar language within its body of law) from any bondage, for lack of a better term, to it. As a legal consequence, each nation is free to determine how it defines legality (and its counterpart), and how best to respond to it.

A large percentage of Americans, in spite of our acknowledgment of the Establishment Clause, still believe our nation to be one founded upon Judeo-Christian legal principles, and we lament erosion of the moral imperatives in the Bible in how modern law is enacted or enforced.

Other countries may disagree, and they're free to do so, from a legal or political standpoint. However, if we try to argue that the Scriptures justify no killing whatsoever, what are we to make of God's use of a death penalty for His own people, or His recommendation to kill whole pagan cultures that were an affront to His holiness? Again, we need a more balanced (or accurate) understanding of Biblical language, starting with the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill," before pronouncing all killing as unjustified.

Abortion vs. death penalty: I think this makes a good issue to discuss as well, and it seems that would be a covered part of this topic. I see a HUGE difference in abortion vs. the death penalty, in terms of which type of killing can be justified. For abortion, the unborn child has committed no offenses that would make the child a threat to society...the baby is simply killed so as not to inconvenience the mother, in 95% or more of all abortion cases in the U.S., because abortion is essentially a birth control method largely for pregnant teens here. In the case of the death penalty, the convicted criminal who has committed something really heinous has already demonstrated a grave threat to society, having already committed such crimes. It is a question, in human terms as well as divine terms, of whether the person deserves his death. An unborn child hardly seems deserving, while a convicted murderer or rapist would seem significantly deserving of such.

Peace,

Jeff

Gothdad brings good points.

However, sure, God doesn't equal government now (as crushthehorns said), but God DID equal government then. It was a theocracy, not a democratic republic.

The pagan cultures that God ordered wiped out in the OT were ones that would do stuff that was harmful to the entire known world then, such as child sacrifice to pagan gods, including both the children from other nations and their own children.

Seriously, those who get uber-offended and disgusted at the OT needs to learn some hermeneutics and then go study it, along with losing the 21st Century Western mindset.

It is murder rather than all killing that is proscribed by the sixth commandment.


“The sixth commandment in its original meaning indubitably referred to murder, not war.” –Donald Bloesch


“The sixth commandment forbids murder. The ethical theology that lies behind this prohibition is the fact that all men and women have been created in the image of God (Gen 1:26-26; 9:6). While Hebrew possesses seven words for killing, the word used here, rasah, appears only forty-seven times in the OT. If any one of the seven words could signify “murder” where the factors of premeditation and intentionality are present, this is the verb… Without exception, however, in later periods (e.g. Ps 94:6; Prov 22:13; Isa 1:21; Hos 4:2; 6:9; Jer 7:9) it carries the idea of murder with intentional violence. Every one of these instances stresses the act or allegation of premeditation and deliberateness –and that is what is at the heart of this verb. Thus this prohibition does not apply to beasts (Gen 9:3), to defending one’s home from night-time burglars (Ex22:2), to accidental killings (Deut 19:5), to the execution of murderers by the state (Gen 9:6); or to involvement with one’s nation in certain types of war as illustrated by Israel’s history. It does apply, however, to self-murder (i.e. suicide), to all accessories to murder (2 Sam 12:9), and to those who have authority but fail to use it to punish known murderers (1 Kings 21:19)” Kaiser, Walter C., Exodus, in Gaebelein, Frank E., ed., EBC, vol. 1, pp. 424f.


“Life-taking is hateful, but life-saving is loving. Hence, it is an axiom of the Christian love-ethic that life-sacrificing is justifiable only if life-saving is thereby accomplishable. Life-taking as such is never the obligation of love, but sacrificing a life to save lives can be demanded by love… (Geisler, Norman, The Christian Ethic of Love, p. 118).

Luke 9:51-56.

/thread

Period!

Killing is not wrong when done in self-defense (of your life or someone else's)

Murder is however.

I used to often wonder about stuff like this. What about police officers who have no choice but to kill a gunman before he kills them?

I'm with Blake and Broc. Murder is the killing of another with malice and evil intent. Killing is not.

Tracker wrote:

Killing is not wrong when done in self-defense (of your life or someone else's)

Murder is however.

Right, but killing should be avoided at all costs and an absolute last resort for self-defense, because we are supposed to save lives, not destroy them.