Unintentional Theologian wrote:

I think it's true that most of Protestantism fail to balance intellectualism and emotionalism as you said.. but I think one group that does this well are the Reformed Charismatics. Yeah, almost an oxymoron I know. They strive to understand doctrine deeply and intellectually but remain charismatic at the same time.

There are Catholic Charismatics. There is a group with the hispanic community at my Church.

olias wrote:

Unintentional Theologian wrote:

I think it's true that most of Protestantism fail to balance intellectualism and emotionalism as you said.. but I think one group that does this well are the Reformed Charismatics. Yeah, almost an oxymoron I know. They strive to understand doctrine deeply and intellectually but remain charismatic at the same time.

There are Catholic Charismatics. There is a group with the hispanic community at my Church.

Yes, I have heard of Catholic Charismatics too

I don't know anything about what charismatics are about though.

A new generation of people who see through mainstream Christianity's misty cloud of deception is on the rise. A lot of Christians were either (a) raised Christian, (b) converted as an emotional crutch during a crisis, or (c) were scared into coercion by the modern church's lunatic shock tactics. Despite the way some Christians love to revel in the idea that they're "oppressed", "persecuted", "rebellious", mainstream Christianity is definitely co-opted by the media. If someone is willing to lower their intellectual standards to accept mainstream Christianity, then they become a perfect victim for every marketing scheme, where they eventually succumb to their "sinful desires" and buy into whatever the media throws at them, then are lowered back into a state of shame (which is the new "repentance") and go buy a bunch of Joel Osteen "devotional" books and worship CDs to be lulled back into a state of faux-righteousness. And there you have it, big bu$ine$$! I know many Christians who are smarter than me and generally awesome people, but none of them are the kind you see on TBN. Mainstream Christianity is corrupt, an abomination. Real Christianity isn't dying so much as people are just growing a pair, developing real principles and questioning/rejecting the mainstream distortion of Christianity.

The current high apostasy rate is like Osama Bin Laden, creating a big scary villain so that the real threats to Christianity (the religion being sucked into a mainstream vacuum and Christians using guerilla anti-intellectual tactics for "evangelism") can operate inside and truly destroy Christianity without anyone noticing.

Think the problem is people want spiritualism but not the discipline of following Christ. I too have trouble in this area I want to love and follow Christ yet I want to par take in certain vices.

olias wrote:

I don't know anything about what charismatics are about though.

Traditionally, a charismatic is one who believes that the gifts of the Spirit (tongues, prophecy, etc) are still in effect today.

This is in contrast with cessationists who believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased after the time of the Apostles.

The way the Church should be is that each generation priors trains the generation that will precede.

That means generation Y trains Generation X and when Generation X is old enough and mature enough, turns the reigns over to them, so Generation Y can guide Generation X while they lead, and Generation Z is being trained by Generation X. Repeating the process over again.

When One generation fails to train and allow the next generation to take over, we will have a fight, like we do today that is splinting the Church.

Generation Y wants to hold on to their music and reject generation X music, because "it is not something we grew up on, therefore, it is wrong." So we have a confrontation where one generation is being selfish for not allowing the next to lead, and the other generation being selfish for not submitting to the previous generation guidance. That does not mean they have to agree, but it does mean both have to accept and compromise with each other.

lord voldemort wrote:

The way the Church should be is that each generation priors trains the generation that will precede.

That means generation Y trains Generation X and when Generation X is old enough and mature enough, turns the reigns over to them, so Generation Y can guide Generation X while they lead, and Generation Z is being trained by Generation X. Repeating the process over again.

When One generation fails to train and allow the next generation to take over, we will have a fight, like we do today that is splinting the Church.

Generation Y wants to hold on to their music and reject generation X music, because "it is not something we grew up on, therefore, it is wrong." So we have a confrontation where one generation is being selfish for not allowing the next to lead, and the other generation being selfish for not submitting to the previous generation guidance. That does not mean they have to agree, but it does mean both have to accept and compromise with each other.

What you just said about one generation training the next is the goal of the This Is Next conference:

http://www.thisisnext.org/about/

I've never attended but I think it's a great concept. They get renowned scholars and pastors into the same room with college students and young adults for an intensive four-day training session.

cool!

looks like a good concept.

lord voldemort wrote:

Christianity, especially protestantism is heading towards its own demise.

The superficial and oversimplification of the message has made protestantism very shallow. With its appeal to society and gimmicks, few see a difference. They have been unable to to demonstrate a solid belief system that answers questions and show God as able to fulfill the needs in life. With "All you need is Jesus" and say this prayer and you are saved, has demeaned Christianity and many have left to find spirituality in other faiths.

With some applying an anti-intellectualism or an anti-emotionalism and never combining them into an intellectual and emotional experience, we are left with nothing that appeals to the human psyche. We are both intellectual and emotional, when both are denied for simplicity, there is no wonder why people are leaving for Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and other cults, they have a connection to "god" that Christianity, especially protestantism has lost.

Many protestants are moving toward liturgical Christianity, Lutheranism to Catholicism and Orthodoxy in America, because they appeal to the intellect and emotion by the liturgy. Protestantism is unable to match on a popular level what these have been able to produce, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, C.K. Chesterton, J.K. Rowlins, etc. while Protestants are only able to produce the crap of Left behind.

That goes to show there is no intellect in Protestantism appealing to the masses. When Protestant want to appeal to it, they go to Catholic or Orthodox sources first.

I haven't found myself agreeing with you often in the past, but with this, I am in 100% agreeance with, mate.

I personally have found that in the attempt to not be religious, many a new "evangelical" has over simplified the Faith. Allow me to explain: I am not saying by making the Christian faith better, you make it more complex. Becase there are verses in the Old Testament that say that the Word of God is for the simpleton/basic/unintellectual, there are also verses in the New Testament saying that the Gospel is for the Barbarian etc (1 Corinthians I think it is). Having said that, I have noticed a trend in trying to appeal to kids/youth/unreligious, many Protestant/Pentecostal/Charismatic/Evangelical churches have totally forgotten another vital crowd: The phlisopher and the systematic thinker.

Many non Christian I have talked to constantly groans about the lack of intelligence or good solid thought in the Christian faith and how it is mainly for dumb people without a brain. While that is true, and growing up in the Pentecostal Church (please, lets leave this to the AOG thread), I remember being surrounded by total nit wits who were shallow (again, experience. and unfortunately its a growing trend) in their thoughts and faith. You'd have a total fairy floss/cotton candy Christian.

This is the Christianity that often gets attacked, and unfortunately it is for good reason! I love the faith, hope and love aspect to our Faith. Christianity really is the most loving Faith (hence its the Truth) out of every Faith there is. Liberation for everybody in a Biblical sense.

But there is a notion of having Christians dumbed down for some reason. This isn't necessarily true in ever circle of Christianity, but the more modern and upbeat ones, this is often the case.

I was often like this. But thank God for the likes of Spurgeon, MacArthur, Piper, Driscoll, Washer, Tozer, Zacharias and the likes of St Ignatius of Antioch etc!

Truth should be able incorperate all sorts of thinking. Look at the Bible, look at the book of Romans. It is pure systematic thought process. In proverbs, you have words to live by, but in Romans, you have the most incredible mind wrecking, thought provoking and in essence, pure systematic thought in just 1 book! Why don't people wrestle with the scriptures anymore?

Going back to my comment about the good thinkers, thanks to these people, my Faith has been strengthened, I know what Truth is, and it now allows me to walk in to any Church I want and declare Truth when there is little/no Truth to be had there. Also, I will be going to pick up some works from Plato and Frederich Neitszche in the next week. I am interested as to what they have to say. In this day and age where their voices are still heard, a Christian must be able to make a response to all criticism

2 Tim 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.


I think in the attempt to become child-like (as Christ tells us to rightly do), we have become childish about our Faith. What has happened to Intellectualism? What has happened to Doctrine? What has happened to Logic, Rationalism and Christian Philosophy? It has gone mostly out the window in the attempt to become relevant to the "common" man.

But then of course, intellectuals and philosophers are common people too... Who is willing to answer their questions? Next to nobody :p

But yes... Christians need to get back in to study of books! Not only for their own intellectual fancy, but the need for others, so that they may come to know Christ that way. Because remember, the Truth of Christ transends absolutely every culture and nation.

I personally believe that mant Christians are leaving the Faith, because their needs are not being met.

Satan's greatest victory is to gain access to the christian pulpit and mix a little white lie in with the whole message.

Basic tactical warfare, divide and conquer.

What did Jesus teach us? What are the greatest commandments?

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart and soul
Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Upon these two commandments, hangs the whole of the law.


Personally, In my opinion, I think we just need to focus on doing what is right, regardless of our emotions and feelings about every little thing. Christianity is quite simple, but it is impossible to be a christian, that is why the Lord God himself came down to this hell hole called earth to die for the sins of us all. We are completely and utterly powerless to save ourselves from death, it is Jesus that had to give Salvation to us, and by him alone has Life come into this dark abyss. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Remember what else Jesus said to us,
"He who loses his life for my sake, shall gain it, but he who tries to save his life, shall lose it."

The Devil will keep you focused on one thing, he will keep you focused on you. He wants you to believe that this is life, and you are living it, sound familiar?
Jesus told us that this world is Death, and that men are like unto dead trees walking to and fro. He would not have called himself "The Life", if this world was life. That is why hell is called the second death, and that when the end comes, the devil, and all his minions, death, and hell, shall be thrown into the lake of fire, which burns forever and ever.

LastFirstborn wrote:

A new generation of people who see through mainstream Christianity's misty cloud of deception is on the rise. A lot of Christians were either (a) raised Christian, (b) converted as an emotional crutch during a crisis, or (c) were scared into coercion by the modern church's lunatic shock tactics. Despite the way some Christians love to revel in the idea that they're "oppressed", "persecuted", "rebellious", mainstream Christianity is definitely co-opted by the media. If someone is willing to lower their intellectual standards to accept mainstream Christianity, then they become a perfect victim for every marketing scheme, where they eventually succumb to their "sinful desires" and buy into whatever the media throws at them, then are lowered back into a state of shame (which is the new "repentance") and go buy a bunch of Joel Osteen "devotional" books and worship CDs to be lulled back into a state of faux-righteousness. And there you have it, big bu$ine$$! I know many Christians who are smarter than me and generally awesome people, but none of them are the kind you see on TBN. Mainstream Christianity is corrupt, an abomination. Real Christianity isn't dying so much as people are just growing a pair, developing real principles and questioning/rejecting the mainstream distortion of Christianity.

The current high apostasy rate is like Osama Bin Laden, creating a big scary villain so that the real threats to Christianity (the religion being sucked into a mainstream vacuum and Christians using guerilla anti-intellectual tactics for "evangelism") can operate inside and truly destroy Christianity without anyone noticing.

Good post.