what are your opinions on it,, your experiences.. and what does scripture teach about it?

And if we follow the greek definition of Sorcery .. Pharmakia... than everything from tv watching to musik, to video games, to any pyschoactive meds could be classified as having a problem with sorcery.

But we can move on from that old point...

a verse that seems to more specifically deal with thr cruxt of the subject-

Deuteronomy 18:11-12 "..casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the lord, and because of these detestable practices the lord your God will drive out those nations before you"

When I first got to tech school (when I was in the Air Force), I got to my room, and noticed that my roommate had a Ouija board. So, I basically blessed the room. I prayed that Holy Spirit would keep any evil spirits out.

A few weeks later, she got her Ouija board our and was trying to use it with a friend of hers. She had talked about the spirits that she spoke to and stuff before, but I had never been in the room when she was using it. Well, that night it was not working for her. She kept saying how weird it was, since usually her spirits would come right away. She tried for several minutes. I told her it was probably because they didn't like me, and said that I would leave. I did.

When I returned, she said that the minute I stepped out of the room, it started working.

I used a Ouija board a few times with some kid relatives and friends when I was little, like 10 or younger. It was an over the counter toy type from a toy store, stupid stuff. Mysteriously it did give appropriate answers.
When I was about 17 I visited a psychic in a flea market outlet, she asked me to sign my name and was able to tell stuff about me from that. I think. She said a couple of things that weren't actually true, but the one thing that she did tell me that still stays with me is that I would marry late, like around 30. I'm 28 now and still single, no forseeable mate as of yet. Whatever, it was all in my pre-Christian life.

I understand this being sinful as it sort of gives us the power to "play God" with things, but what I find interesting is why is it that God allows people to hold this type of power? Considering He doesn't want us to do it means that we actually DO have the ability to do it (cast spells, see the future, etc), and not only that but at times it actually works.

metalgrinch wrote:

I understand this being sinful as it sort of gives us the power to "play God" with things, but what I find interesting is why is it that God allows people to hold this type of power? Considering He doesn't want us to do it means that we actually DO have the ability to do it (cast spells, see the future, etc), and not only that but at times it actually works.

I think that is a good question... and I think the answer is simple.

That we fallen men with fallen natures who naturally serve ourselves over God.. can only use such power and/or gifts for wickedness... whether we realize it or not.

Also, these arcance practice are often referred to in scriptuer as similiart to idolatry.. which also makes sense.. in that these things Enchant us away from God and into "spirits and spiritualism".

I beklieve before the fall Adam and Eve woudhave conisdered what we would think of as "magick" as Natural. They may very well have, withou t effort had many of the abilities of wizards.. both physically and spiritually... but because they were not fallen and did not live for Self.. who is too say that Adam or Eve did not walk on water at times or float above the ground if they wished too? We see Jesus doing such things because he was not fallen... well Adam and Eve were not fallen for a tiem as well... makes one wonder.

I don't think that people can see into the future. I don't think that angels, fallen or otherwise can see into the future. But...demons do know what is going on now, and they have insight into human nature and such, and can make educated guesses as to what is likely to happen in a person's life.

Also, fortune tellers and psychics often are really good at reading people. The notice people's facial expressions and reactions and adjust their readings accordingly.


So...I think one of two things are happening when you get a reading from a fortune teller or psychic. Either the person is using purely human talent to give a reading that makes sense to the person. We tend to fill in the blanks and make things fit if we believe in such things. A psychic may know what they are doing, and is a fraud...or, they may just do it naturally, and not realize that they are using human insight and talent to do what they are doing...in which case, it isn't intentional fraud, but it isn't supernatural, either. I think most of the time, this is what is happening.


Or...they are getting help from the spirit world...demonic help. In this case, a demon would know things about a person that the psychic doesn't. This information could be used to give accurate information about a person, and make fairly accurate predictions of what will probably happen to a person. For example, if a demon knows that a person 's loved one is sick with terminal cancer but the person doesn't know that yet, then the psychic can predict that the person will suffer a loss of a loved one. Then, a few months later, the loved one informs the person that they have cancer and will die in the next year. It looks like the psychic had a real ability to see into the future, but in reality, he didn't. This is supernatural in nature, but not really seeing into the future.

So...taking metalgrinch's late marriage into example...


Handwriting does reveal things about a person's personality...so, using that info, and MG's reactions and the fact that statistically, people are marrying much later than they used to...she makes that prediction. The fact that she said some things that weren't true makes it even more probable that it was a good guess on the fortune teller's part. She guess right on some things, and wrong on others. Statistically, this is the expected outcome.

Or...the fortune teller had even furthur insight into MG's personality and plans for life from demonic sources, and made an reasonable guess based on this additional insight. But she still got some things wrong, it was still a lucky guess. She didn't actually see the future.

Why can't people see into the future? If our souls dwell in eternity and our body dwells in time... as CS Lewis writes.. than that would seem to imply that part of us can perceive time from outside of "time"... from the side of the eternal.

As far as some people having certain spiritual gifts.. does anyone challenge that notion? That some people may possess spiritual gifts that allow them to see things in relation to time or other dimensions.. that others cannot?

Of course, what one does with there gifts is entirely a different matter.. but that does not make the ability itself good or evil simply to have it.

I , myself, have always had the ability to perceive other dimensions and other dimensional beings, as it were.. to a certain extent.

I think that is one of the reasons I got into magick when I was younger and was really really "effective" at it. Thankfully God puled me out of that.. and I knew all along that it was wrong.

Whether or not I personally believe, if this stuff were true, we probably shouldn't be dicking around with this stuff.

Theoretically speaking, if we really can do this stuff, I would attribute it to a) Us being created in God's image and b) us having the free will to do wrong or right.

That being said, I am the eternal skeptic.

What is the greek definition of sorcery?

Oh, and Ash, what C.S. Lewis books have you read? He is one of my favorite authors.

I've read everything by lewis except " out of the silent planet" and his early poetry..

Out of the Silent Planet is fantastic.

exactly, why would we have such gifts if they are evil, all of these things are natural human abilities. the reason 90% of people go there whole life without ever experienceing them is because over thousands of years of oppression of them they have now gone dormant and all of the chakras have slammed shut. one doesnot realize how many ailments can be permanently cured just by opening and alinging them so energy flows correctly unfortyunatley we live in a society were people have completly neglected our spiritual and energetic essence of health that it begins to manifest itself physically. many ailments such as fibromyalgia, and many other non-viral/bacterial ailments are a lack of correct enegy flow throughout the meridians, simple ailments such as depression can be cured by unblocking the meridians i know this because i have done it for it many times before.


NOW i do not know what the original texts of the bible say about sorcery etc but i know the bible was severly changed to suit the desires of kings, priests, etc etc. modern christianity is a warped and twisted tool to destroy spirituality leaving the powers of the mind and soul in the hands of the elite to control the masses. this is why i HATE from the core of my being the catholic church considering they are responsible for it. why do you think they keep ancient esoteric texts in the vatican? because they USE them without the publics knowledge, as i said, solomon was an astrologer and sorcerer, little do people know this, little do people know the astrological references in the bible either, this is because the texts have been warped and changed, this is why new translations keep coming out, its a slow alteration of the already defiled word, just compare them together you will see what i mean.

another bullsh*t misconception is in order to use powers of the mind and soul you have to be "demon possesed" now take it from someone who works with this stuff everday, i work with energy for my health spiritually and physically EVERDAY and i am not demon possesed nor have i ever even messed with "demons" so explain that? i dont get depressed or tired or sick and if i do, i can get rid of it within an hour just by channeling energy, another thing, FAITH is essence of magic the stronger you beleive something willm happen the better the outcome, this is exactly what jesus was talking about, prayer and faith is a crude form of magic. little do people know what magic is it is VERY SIMPLE, you raise energy, you repeat to yourself what you want to happen, then you HAVE FAITH and it happens, sounds a bit like prayer to me. even if some idiot were to pray to a box of chocolate, if he beleived the box of chocolate listened and answered his prayer what he wished for would come true. this is also why when an entire congregation prays for something the results are more powerful, it combines 100-1000 peoples energy towards one goal amplifying it greatly, this is also why praying several times a day is more effective to, trust me, "god" is not so deaf he needs an entire congregation to shout at him so he can hear them.


and remeber, what makes something wicked is its intent, things that do not have the ability to think or reason CANNOT be wicked, only the person using them

wizardovmetal wrote:

exactly, why would we have such gifts if they are evil, all of these things are natural human abilities, the reason 90% of people go there whole life without ever experienceing them is because over thousands of years of oppression of them they have now gone dormant and all of the chakras have slammed shut, one doesnot realize how many ailments can be permanently cured just by opening and alinging them so energy flows correctly, unfortyunatley we live in a society were people have completly neglected our spiritual and energetic essence of health that it begins to manifest itself physically, many ailments such as fibromyalgia, and many other non-viral/bacterial ailments are a lack of correct enegy flow throughout the meridians, simple ailments such as depression can be cured by unblocking the meridians i know this because i have done it for it many times before, NOW i do not know what the original texts of the bible say about sorcery etc but i know the bible was severly changed to suit the desires of kings, priests, etc etc, modern christianity is a warped and twisted tool to destroy spirituality leaving the powers of the mind and soul in the hands of the elite to control the masses, this is why i HATE from the core of my being the catholic church considering they are responsible for it, why do you think they keep ancient esoteric texts in the vatican? because they USE them without the publics knowledge, as i said, solomon was an astrologer and sorcerer, little do people know this, little do people know the astrological references in the bible either, this is because the texts have been warped and changed, this is why new translations keep coming out, its a slow alteration of the already defiled word, just compare them together you will see what i mean. another bullsh*t misconception is in order to use powers of the mind and soul you have to be "demon possesed" now take it from someone who works with this stuff everday, i work with energy for my health spiritually and physically EVERDAY and i am not demon possesed nor have i ever even messed with "demons" so explain that? i dont get depressed or tired or sick and if i do, i can get rid of it within an hour just by channeling energy, another thing, FAITH is essence of magic the stronger you beleive something willm happen the better the outcome, this is exactly what jesus was talking about, prayer and faith is a crude form of magic, little do people know what magic is it is VERY SIMPLE, you raise energy, you repeat to yourself what you want to happen, then you HAVE FAITH and it happens, sounds a bit like prayer to me. even if some idiot were to pray to a box of chocolate, if he beleived the box of chocolate listened and answered his prayer what he wished for would come true, this is also why when an entire congregation prays for something the results are more powerful, it combines 100-1000 peoples energy towards one goal amplifying it greatly, this is also why praying several times a day is more effective to, trust me, "god" is not so deaf he needs an entire congregation to shout at him so he can hear them.


and remeber, what makes something wicked is its intent, things that do not have the ability to think or reason CANNOT be wicked, only the person using them

I honestly have no idea what you just said because that entire paragraph was three giant sentences with more commas than I have keys on my keyboard. To be honest, I don't think anyone is going to bother reading that. Not because they disagree with you, but because the grammar makes it impossible to read without getting a migraine.

I believe that your comment would be considered in this thread wizardovmetal if the post was just a little more readable. Not trying to come down on you, but if you want your opinion to be known and considered by others, it needs to be written in a way that people can read and understand it.

tl;dr.

sorry i fixed it

Quote :

exactly, why would we have such gifts if they are evil, all of these things are natural human abilities.

the scriptures do not say that any spiritual gifts are evil.. only that certain practices with them.. that redirect attention and honour away from God is evil in his sight.

similiarly drinking alcohol is no sin... but drunkenness is.

what one does or is with what he has is what makes something sinful or not sinful.. according to scripture.

Let's say that on some other planet, God gives people a sword at birth.

You can use your argument, wizard, and say that because you are born with that sword, killing people with it is not evil.

Or you can look at it a liitle deeper and say that well.. it is isn't the sword that is the issue.. but rather what is does with it and even.. who wields it.

That was a bad example... but maybe my point is made.


Or you can look it this way..

God gave you a brain.. and therefore God gave yout he ability to think thoughts.

You can use those thoughts to commit evil acts.. or you can use those thoughts to promote healing. Neither case make thoughts the problem.. but rather the will and the soul behind those thoughts is the problem.

And so, with spiritual gifts, just because scripture may condemn spell casting does not mean that a perosn who has a natural gift to be able to see into other dimensions, or sense the presence of spirits more than others... is a sinner.. It means if he uses that ability or any other to cast a spell, or commune with spirits and/or divine supernaturla information... then he is commiting sin by how he uses such ability.

EXCELLENT POST!!!! and yes the bible does mention the intent makes something evil, i get sick of my deluded grandmother telling energy healers that heal people on an energetic unseen level that they are possesed and going to hell. its just like when the idiot catholic church burned people for herbal medicine because yes HERBAL USE IS PURE MAGIC, in fact everbody in the entire world practices magic every single day without associating with the term

lets take a look at some defenitions...

Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is a conceptual system that asserts human ability to control or predict the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena) through mystical, paranormal or supernatural means. ...

Paranormal is a general term that describes unusual experiences that lack a scientific explanation

The term supernatural or supranatural (Latin: super, supra "above" + natura "nature") pertains to being above or beyond what is natural, unexplainable by natural law or phenomena

im pretty sure if an meteorologist was to go back in time he would be considered a sorcerer

now as we see ancient medicinal use in egypt would fit these defenitions, they used all sorts of remedies taught to them by the gods, yet had no idea why or how they worked making them, magic

one day science will advance far enough to explain all this "supernatural" stuff and it is already delving slightly into it, such as the theories on dark matter

now things that i practice always have certain "science" to them and always follow specific sets of regulations and laws meaning magic or energy work or anything like that always follows specific se3ts of laws and scientific standards, its not a world of fantasy anything and everything is possible and there never has to be any explanation or idea or theory behind it, when u mess with energy in the mystical sense there is always a basis of science behind it as you are really working with real energy that follows real scientific laws, many of these things can be explained using basic scientific concepts

now as far as people who are easily able to communicate with spirits i would always caution them to KNOW WHO IN THE HELL YOUR TALKING TO theres tons and tons of liars or misinformed spirits out there this is why it is extremly important to learn to sense energy signature because considering the astral world has no physical type form beings can manifest themselves in any form they want to by consciouss thought not to mention tons and tons of beings will claim to be this or that but arent and are decieving you, someone in my group was talking about her experiences with the god azazel, sure enough, it turned out this was NOT azazel and that it was a deceptive entity, these entitys will apear to be the real thing, but slowly fill you with garbage until you on a magical mystical farytaile of non reality, had this person been able to sense the beings energy signatre, she would have known right away it was definitly not azazel. ive seen alot of people with great potential lose themselves to things like this.

another problem with messing with spirits is egregores, these are basically beings created when you put a strong beleif in something that isnt real, humanity has a nasty habit of creating gods that dont exist, this type of being is nothing more then an astral generation of your own consciousness amplified and fed by your energy or the energy of those who chose to beleive in it with you.


another interesting concept, science itself is magical, this is one of the reasons the catholic church prohibited it for so long and would burn people who practiced it, resulting in the dark ages

BryneVampyr wrote:

I don't think that people can see into the future.

I disagree I think some can, but it is a rare thing.

There have been times i have seen things before they have happened. I have read of people who have done so as well.

One I read, several people claimed they saw the Pentagon in flames as much as a week before 9/11.

I have seen the Mall of Georgia Food Court in wreckage, as if a bomb blew it up. I saw this vision several times. When it stopped, I wondered. Then I saw a news article of a group in Atlanta being arrested for terrorism. I believe their target was the Food Court of the Mall of GA in Buford.

So it is possible.

Quote :

now as far as people who are easily able to communicate with spirits i would always caution them to KNOW WHO IN THE HELL YOUR TALKING TO theres tons and tons of liars or misinformed spirits out there

Can we apply this to you? You have posted many post that are misinformed. Can we assume now you are a liar and that we should ignore you?

Just so you know, I am harsh with you because you are presenting a very ignorant form of information. You can not even spell properly, you can not write properly, you come across as an ignorant person trying to appear smart.

I have dealt with more educated people who believe similar to you, and they have my respect. They come across as intelligent, they can form arguments and defend their point, even though we may disagree. I can respect them. You, I can not. You are nothing but a rebel who is vying for attention, with anything that is not Christian.

You have an anger that drives you, it is not even logical, it is illogical and you latched on to something you do not even understand, just to get away from Christianity. Which is foolish and that comes through with each of your post.

If you want people to take you seriously, learn to write properly, learn to read and learn to research your statements before making them. Then you might have a chance to be taken seriously.

Prof. Snape, he has a good point, we should know who we are talking too.

lord voldemort wrote:

BryneVampyr wrote:

I don't think that people can see into the future.

I disagree I think some can, but it is a rare thing.

I do believe that God can reveal the future to someone. I just don't think that people, in and of themselves, can have the ability to reveal the future.

first off i have been ignoring you lord voldemort because there is no point, u want a fight, and im not giving it to you, say and do what u must, but your wasting your time. seondly seeing into the future has something to do with the ripples in energy events make and there possible outcomes, i personally dont think seeing into the future is that possible unless you use astrology or numerology to predict things, even then, things are changeable

Not even a couple months ago you're the super-Christian, making accusations left and right toward those of us into black metal, and now you're suddenly schooling us on Satanism and "magic"?

Perfect example of a sheep.

Only time will tell if he's just being a "sheep" or if he really is sincerely interested in Satanism. It's pretty much impossible to tell over the Internet, but personally, I think he seems pretty "for real" about it.

Well now it's "enki"-ism or some other junk like that.

LastFirstborn wrote:

Only time will tell if he's just being a "sheep" or if he really is sincerely interested in Satanism. It's pretty much impossible to tell over the Internet, but personally, I think he seems pretty "for real" about it.

trust me im 100% for real

wizardovmetal wrote:

first off i have been ignoring you lord voldemort because there is no point, u want a fight, and im not giving it to you, say and do what u must, but your wasting your time. seondly seeing into the future has something to do with the ripples in energy events make and there possible outcomes, i personally dont think seeing into the future is that possible unless you use astrology or numerology to predict things, even then, things are changeable

I am not after a fight, anyone who knows me, and there are a few here who do, know my style, can tell you I do not look for fights.

What I do look for and challenge are people like you. You are not credible, and as people have said, you switch 180 degrees in a span of a few months. So, I am challenging on your stance. So far, I am not impressed and so is no one else.

I saw the future of a potential attack and I did not use astrology or numerology. So again, your conclusion is wrong.

I do believe there is the ability for events to be recorded in the future and then replayed in the present before it happens.

There have been many occasions of this. I have read some about 9/11 as I mentioned and my own experience.

The reason you want to ignore me is because you can not stand someone who challenged your "beliefs", one who has consistently shown how wrong you are and how inconsistent your view is.

I have challenged you with facts, I have not attacked you personally. You hold to a belief that is very inconsistent with reality.