Self explanatory, a thread to discuss Calvinism/Reformed theology and argue for/against it so long as y'all keep it civil and mudslinging-free. Perhaps some Calvinist BBers can share insight on why Calvinism makes sense to them, for those of us who are confused/baffled by the whole thing?

Umm...yah agreed.
What is calvinism first off?

Sarcastic, exaggerated description of Calvinism in 3...2......1.........

a form of Protestantism emphasizing the eternal predestination of every individual to damnation or to salvation.

I am a calvanist in some sense.

I believe that man does not have complete free will. Only God does.

For if man had complete free will, he woudl be God.

This does not mean, however that men do not choose whether or not to be saved.. but rather that as Scripture teaches.. "no man seeks after God".. and God must first call you before you can even reach the point where you can choose to accept or reject salvation through Christ.

In this sense, no man should give himself credit for his salvation. The credit is God's.

Also, not possessing a completely free will is a good thing. It is the reason we can be saved. Angels possess a more complete free will... to the point where they can not be saved when they have fallen. One of the perks to being human, indeed.. is our limited state of will and understanding.

olias wrote:

a form of Protestantism emphasizing the eternal predestination of every individual to damnation or to salvation.

Yeah but I dont know what Protestant means either!!

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:

olias wrote:

a form of Protestantism emphasizing the eternal predestination of every individual to damnation or to salvation.

Yeah but I dont know what Protestant means either!!

Protestant means Protester. Protestor of the Roman Catholic Church and many of it's traditions and theologies.

The German Martin Luther was the Father of the PRotestants. HE nailed a list of Protests against Roman Catholic traditions into a church door. somewhere in Germany. and then was the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:

olias wrote:

a form of Protestantism emphasizing the eternal predestination of every individual to damnation or to salvation.

Yeah but I dont know what Protestant means either!!

Protestant means Protester. Protestor of the Roman Catholic Church and many of it's traditions and theologies.

The German Martin Luther was the Father of the PRotestants. HE nailed a list of Protests against Roman Catholic traditions into a church door. somewhere in Germany. and then was the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

Right, it was the Church at Wittenburg. He did emphasize sola fide and sola scripture before that time though. The straw that broke the camels back, and the event that got Luther upset enough to draft the 95 Theses was the indulgence selling, which was back then, to raise money for the Vatican to build St. Peter's (or to fix it, I don't remember), they went around and sold these documents that were said to have absolved (or removed) all sins from anyone who bought one, past, present, and future. In simpler terms, they were selling forgiveness, and this outraged Luther. Strangely enough, the 95 Theses were actually dedicated to Pope Leo X, who was the one who commanded the indulgence sellers to go do their thing to get money, but Luther was unaware of this at the time.

eternalmystery wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:

olias wrote:

a form of Protestantism emphasizing the eternal predestination of every individual to damnation or to salvation.

Yeah but I dont know what Protestant means either!!

Protestant means Protester. Protestor of the Roman Catholic Church and many of it's traditions and theologies.

The German Martin Luther was the Father of the PRotestants. HE nailed a list of Protests against Roman Catholic traditions into a church door. somewhere in Germany. and then was the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

Right, it was the Church at Wittenburg. He did emphasize sola fide and sola scripture before that time though. The straw that broke the camels back, and the event that got Luther upset enough to draft the 95 Theses was the indulgence selling, which was back then, to raise money for the Vatican to build St. Peter's (or to fix it, I don't remember), they went around and sold these documents that were said to have absolved (or removed) all sins from anyone who bought one, past, present, and future. In simpler terms, they were selling forgiveness, and this outraged Luther. Strangely enough, the 95 Theses were actually dedicated to Pope Leo X, who was the one who commanded the indulgence sellers to go do their thing to get money, but Luther was unaware of this at the time.

OH! DUDE!
I totally understand this now.
Im apparently smarter than I thought lolz.
Oh im a protestant.

Yes.. but shoudl we deal with the other great abomination that the Catholic Church was involved in.

1. They put people to death for possessing any written copy of the scriptures, if they were not Catholic Priests. ( during the time period of the Crusades ).

2. After they had used the Crusaders to save themselves form the Mohammedans they methodically tried many of the lords of the Knight's Templar for heresy... because they believed that all men should be permitted to possess copies of the Scriptures.. among other things. As such.. they were sent to be tortures by the Spanish inquisition.

If that is not Satanic behaviour, I don't know what is.

... The Roman Catholic Church has alot to answer for, indeed.

i learned something about calvinism that even i, a calvinist. didnt know...

Calvinism teaches that Salvation is, in a sense, a trinitarian process...

the father, from before the beginning of time, chooses a people to himself based on no merit found in humanity...then he creates the world,...creates man,...sin enters the world...

Jesus then comes, Sheds his precious blood so that the payment of sin can be reconciled for The Father's Chosen ones. if i remember my theology correctly, not even jesus knows who they are.

then the holy spirit comes in, convicting each the father has chosen and The Son has died for, bringing them to repentance and faith.

edit: well i knew that was how it works,...i mean i just never thought about it being a "trinitarian process" pretty cool

Why would God create some people to be his "chosen ones" and others to go to hell?

oh and why does calvinism make sense to me? well, it started dawning on me, when i read the verse talking about man being spiritually dead,....(this was before i'd even HEARD of calvinism)

i thought to myself "ok, mans spiritually dead,....none seek after God, no not one...how does he get saved?" so i did some study,....boom,

LastFirstborn wrote:

Why would God create some people to be his "chosen ones" and others to go to hell?

better question,...why should God, save ANY of us wretched sinners? how can you say that No one deserves his grace and how were all wretched sinners in one breathe, and then say that it's wrong of god to "choose" salvation for some and not others....it's a miracle he saves ANYONE

CorpulentCripple wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

Why would God create some people to be his "chosen ones" and others to go to hell?

better question,...why should God, save ANY of us wretched sinners? how can you say that No one deserves his grace and how were all wretched sinners in one breathe, and then say that it's wrong of god to "choose" salvation for some and not others....it's a miracle he saves ANYONE

What are the deciding factors by which God chooses which of his creations not to eternally torment?

LastFirstborn wrote:

Why would God create some people to be his "chosen ones" and others to go to hell?

You mean the lake of fire, right? Because Hell is just the spiritual dimension of earth.. and is only temporary.

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

As far as the lake of fire.. yea.. very unpleasant event.. but rather than find ways to deny it's existence or lessen it's threat..I'd say it's best to serve as emissary's for God.. to do our part to keep people away from the Judgment.

So instead of turning to rationality, we're supposed to be coerced into accepting "because God said so" as a legitimate answer to the unanswered questions and spread the threat of "second death" so that others will also be coerced? No thanks, I'll stick with rationality.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Yes.. but shoudl we deal with the other great abomination that the Catholic Church was involved in.

1. They put people to death for possessing any written copy of the scriptures, if they were not Catholic Priests. ( during the time period of the Crusades ).

2. After they had used the Crusaders to save themselves form the Mohammedans they methodically tried many of the lords of the Knight's Templar for heresy... because they believed that all men should be permitted to possess copies of the Scriptures.. among other things. As such.. they were sent to be tortures by the Spanish inquisition.

If that is not Satanic behaviour, I don't know what is.

... The Roman Catholic Church has alot to answer for, indeed.

The discouraging people from reading the Bible thing the Catholic church has done in the past still goes on in a few areas today, except they aren't killing people. One of those areas is mine. (*not an attack*)

As said before, my area is HEAVILY Catholic. Being a resident of one of the Florida Parishes (which was a part of Spain) and a resident of an area that later on was owned by France, Catholicism is embedded into our culture like a screw that won't come undone because it is stripped.

I have had several conversations with people that were either converts from the RCC or RCC laypeople. This is what some of the people who left it told me (this is only a couple examples):

- They were given a Bible by a Gideon who was passing out those little copies of the NT. They went home and read it. It contradicted almost everything they had been taught in the RCC, so they went to their priest to ask them why the RCC contradicts the Scriptures. The priest then tells them that even though they had encouraged them to read the Bible, they didn't want this particular person to read it anymore because it "confused them". The priest then wanted to confiscate their copy of the NT the Gideons handed out to them, in order to "prevent any more confusion". The person then realized that if the RCC was in fact obedient to the Scriptures that they would not have confiscated their copy of the NT. They then abandon Rome.

- They had long rejected people wanting to give them Bibles, because their particular church told them that laypeople who read the Bible will be confused, and only those who comprise the Magisterium and force of the RCC had enough special insight to know what it says. Finally, like a child disobeying their parents out of curiosity when they tell them not to go into a closet or something, they pick up a Bible and read it. They realized they had been relying on the church to guide them into all truth, and the Bible contradicted this special "truth" that the RCC had long proclaimed to possess. Upon realizing this, they abandon Rome.

As for the people still in the RCC down here, they are pretty much kept ignorant, and the ones who actually know anything about their own theology were pretty much on their own, with no assistance from the church. When I talk to most Catholics here, it ends up being me teaching them the BASICS of their own theology. They are aware of the most obvious ones, like the Marian stuff and infant baptism, but they don't have a single clue about their denial of sola fide and sola scriptura, most of them obviously had never even read past the cover of a Bible and have admitted to this openly, they usually also have zero clue about the RCC's Sacred Tradition.

I know that some, if not all, of the Catholics here will probably cry foul at this, and I expect that. They do probably go to RC churches that actually try to teach some, and actually encourage Bible reading. But do not think that it is like that everywhere. Almost everyone in my area who is either Catholic or a convert from Catholicism will flatly tell you that this does go on.

The RCC is today, lamenting and crying over the fact that it's members are so ignorant, but think about it. Who's fault is this? At least other churches that aren't caught up in ritualism try and make big attempts at educating, whereas the RCC has done extremely little, if any at all in some cases.

I apologize for the long post.

LastFirstborn wrote:

So instead of turning to rationality, we're supposed to be coerced into accepting "because God said so" as a legitimate answer to the unanswered questions and spread the threat of "second death" so that others will also be coerced? No thanks, I'll stick with rationality.

And who are you, or anyone else, to dictate what God should do, how He should act, etc.?

"I'll accept God, but only on MY TERMS! I wanna paint Him into an image of myself!"

eternalmystery wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

So instead of turning to rationality, we're supposed to be coerced into accepting "because God said so" as a legitimate answer to the unanswered questions and spread the threat of "second death" so that others will also be coerced? No thanks, I'll stick with rationality.

And who are you, or anyone else, to dictate what God should do, how He should act, etc.?

"I'll accept God, but only on MY TERMS! I wanna paint Him into an image of myself!"

I guess God didn't preprogram me to accept him.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Yes.. but shoudl we deal with the other great abomination that the Catholic Church was involved in.

1. They put people to death for possessing any written copy of the scriptures, if they were not Catholic Priests. ( during the time period of the Crusades ).

2. After they had used the Crusaders to save themselves form the Mohammedans they methodically tried many of the lords of the Knight's Templar for heresy... because they believed that all men should be permitted to possess copies of the Scriptures.. among other things. As such.. they were sent to be tortures by the Spanish inquisition.

If that is not Satanic behaviour, I don't know what is.

... The Roman Catholic Church has alot to answer for, indeed.

Indeed Kamerad!

If I recall correctly the crusades were an attempt to reclaim the holy land and certain holy relics which were deemed as valueable or in some aspects as having magical powers ( Remember at this time Alchemy was not an outlawed practice ) The crusades were againist the Muslims who had gained control of Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple. The Crusaders were sent to excavate the temple and other holy sites around the city including Golgotha and Garden. Things of interest were the Chalice Cup or the Holy Grail, A Piece of the True Cross, The Spear used to pierce Christ, and the silver coins used in his Betrayal. What, How much and was recovered is a mystery even to today but it is known artifacts were found, as to where and what again a mystery.

What is known is that Crusaders were called Foot Soliders for Christ for the Temple of Solomon or loosely translated - Knights Templar. It is also widely known that the Templars were protectors of these seeking safe passage to Holy Land and such they became wealthy as did the Church. This was a bleak time in history ( often called the dark ages ) for most but not the church.

Like with most unknown things truth lies somewhere in the middle. I do not wish to hijack the thread but I wanted to give a little more historical background to Ash's comment.

In all honesty, it is the Calvinist view of God that I am seeing a bit more of after my recent revelation, and the same view that makes me hate God. From real examination, I do not believe God chose me to be saved which is why I hate Him. Why I say that is because a few years ago when I chose to take Christianity seriously and really wish to be as close as possible, all it did was create an empty, painful, sorrowful void that only grew upon learning more and discovering more truth. It was only when I reject and blaspheme God where I lose my void and return to peace.

Notice when I try to help out Christians, I instead on the internet lash out on them.

However, because I do wish to love God and get to know him, Voldemort did tell me that is of God, but why should I love God if he hates me? Why is it when I call to Him or even love God, I get a great painful empty void, but when I get interested in something like Satanism, I feel like I am where I need to be?

In addition to this, I really don't want to be involved in Satanism due to the fact that I love God and wish to be with Him, but every time I go to Him, he punt kicks me down the stairs when I kneel to Him. Yet, when I am with Satanism, I actually feel more at peace and harmony, but I also know it is with damnation, which I don't wish when I really look at everything.

So, if God doesn't choose me even though I choose Him, then I think the hate is justified. Especially since the followers aren't interested in helping me either (sans Voldemort and a real life friend via internet).

PS: I also find it weird when I go into the thread, where I expect Calvinism is where I see mostly on Catholicism, yet when I go to the Catholicism thread, it's mostly on Calvinism. Strange eh?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, but I am also needing to take the time to evaluate everything to see if I'm correct or incorrect on the subject at hand. Since we are relying on God and not having true free will, I also feel if God does love me and want me back, He will grab me by the head, and show the way, and if God really does hate me as I think, He'll let me die in this kind of pain.

I am also evaluating to make sure that in addition to right or wrong, but also what I am doing in my life, or not doing, that is causing this void to happen. Remember, I don't hold pride so I may or may not change.

Death over Life wrote:

In all honesty, it is the Calvinist view of God that I am seeing a bit more of after my recent revelation, and the same view that makes me hate God. From real examination, I do not believe God chose me to be saved which is why I hate Him. Why I say that is because a few years ago when I chose to take Christianity seriously and really wish to be as close as possible, all it did was create an empty, painful, sorrowful void that only grew upon learning more and discovering more truth. It was only when I reject and blaspheme God where I lose my void and return to peace.

Notice when I try to help out Christians, I instead on the internet lash out on them.

However, because I do wish to love God and get to know him, Voldemort did tell me that is of God, but why should I love God if he hates me? Why is it when I call to Him or even love God, I get a great painful empty void, but when I get interested in something like Satanism, I feel like I am where I need to be?

In addition to this, I really don't want to be involved in Satanism due to the fact that I love God and wish to be with Him, but every time I go to Him, he punt kicks me down the stairs when I kneel to Him. Yet, when I am with Satanism, I actually feel more at peace and harmony, but I also know it is with damnation, which I don't wish when I really look at everything.

So, if God doesn't choose me even though I choose Him, then I think the hate is justified. Especially since the followers aren't interested in helping me either (sans Voldemort and a real life friend via internet).

PS: I also find it weird when I go into the thread, where I expect Calvinism is where I see mostly on Catholicism, yet when I go to the Catholicism thread, it's mostly on Calvinism. Strange eh?

I am right there with you on a lot of this man. I feel like a lot of times when I approach God, and I start to understand more of how things work, I get angry. I get angry because He knows everything that is going to happen before it happens. He all ready knows everyone who is going to be saved and who isn't, so then I wonder, "what is the point of all of this" and "why should we struggle and go through so much pain for something that is all ready set in stone".

Then I look at some atheists or people who don't believe in Jesus who are really nice people and wouldn't do anything worse than any of the christians I know would do. Just like buddhist monks who seriously wouldn't hurt a fly and help people when they need it. I get a horrible feeling when I realize that they are probably going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus.

Then also, what would be the point of going evangelism. If He knows who is going to believe in the first place, what is the point of seeking out all of the people who don't believe even though most of them are going to leave?

Rant..rant..rant..rant..rant......sorry guys.

CorpulentCripple wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

Why would God create some people to be his "chosen ones" and others to go to hell?

better question,...why should God, save ANY of us wretched sinners? how can you say that No one deserves his grace and how were all wretched sinners in one breathe, and then say that it's wrong of god to "choose" salvation for some and not others....it's a miracle he saves ANYONE

Well, after re-reading that, and what I forgot to mention, it does kind of show that God does play favoritism as well.

I don't see how God doesn't play favoritism when the Scriptures say: 1st to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. Why are the Israelites constantly called God's CHOSEN? Even despite the majority of them reject Christ as Messiah, they are still God's CHOSEN.

Then something I informed Voldemort of, I noticed that God wanted Paul (then Saul) to be saved, so God went out of His way to temporarily blind Paul and show Paul that God wanted him. As such Paul then came to Christ and served Him for the rest of His life. Then let us take a look at Judas. As we know from prophecies, Jesus HAD to be betrayed if He were to be the Messiah. From what I'm seeing, Judas didn't really choose to betray, God chose him to betray Jesus. This is why after the betrayal, Judas felt grieved. And if the ones who taught me are correct in that Judas was not saved and is heading to the Lake of Fire, then Judas and Paul together prove God chooses and plays favorites with His' creation.

Don't forget, even if Judas loved Jesus, Jesus still told Him that He would betray Him. How do you think Judas felt that He had to betray Jesus whether He liked it or not? Because Jesus told Him he was going to betray Him, it was going to happen.

Just think about how you would feel if God told you that you were going to betray Him even though you love Him?

LastFirstborn wrote:

eternalmystery wrote:

LastFirstborn wrote:

So instead of turning to rationality, we're supposed to be coerced into accepting "because God said so" as a legitimate answer to the unanswered questions and spread the threat of "second death" so that others will also be coerced? No thanks, I'll stick with rationality.

And who are you, or anyone else, to dictate what God should do, how He should act, etc.?

"I'll accept God, but only on MY TERMS! I wanna paint Him into an image of myself!"

I guess God didn't preprogram me to accept him.

I think I could have worded my last post in here a little better than I did. So my apologies. I've been ultra busy with band stuff at the moment and barely have time for forums anymore.

I'm tired, and it's 4 AM and I have insomnia, so I'll try to post a better reply tomorrow.