The point I am making here is that God uses the natural to do what he wants.

To walk on water Christ had to turn the water solid, which means it must have been ice or salt.

The plagues of Egypt are all natural events, there is nothing supernatural about them, they all happen every year some place in the world.

When we read the bible we tend to lean to far to the supernatural explanation, because i think it helps us see God in a supernatural way, that is beyond our own natural lives. It is why people read myths of Greece and fantasy, they want to connect to something vastly different than what is in their own lives.

We want to see Christ defy the laws of nature and he is really walking on air and liquid, both are impossible, but that is what people want.

Quote :

To walk on water Christ had to turn the water solid, which means it must have been ice or salt.

Why? How do you know He did not walk on actual water... you know, the wet stuff?

Answer- You don't.

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We want to see Christ defy the laws of nature and he is really walking on air and liquid, both are impossible, but that is what people want.

Resurrection is impossible too. SO Christ did not REturn to Life after three days?


The creator does not defy his creation by being Lord over it. We see from all over scripture that the physcial world obeys whatevver God wills. It is not defiance of something.. when you are Lord and Creator of it.

So when Christ was transfigured and ascended to heaven from his Apostles.. he was bieng pulled upwards by tornado winds?

When CHrist says that He is with us.. well it is impossible that he coul dbe with us all at the same time.. so He is only with us one at a time?

No. The Living Spirit rules over the physcal world, I believe Adam and Eve could do the same things to their own extent before the fall.

I agree, God is not bound by physical or natural restrictions and to try and explain miracles using natural explanations is to reduce what God is capable of. He can walk on actual water if He wants, He is above nature and it is not wrong for Him to be.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Quote :

To walk on water Christ had to turn the water solid, which means it must have been ice or salt.

Why? How do you know He did not walk on actual water... you know, the wet stuff?

Answer- You don't.

Quote :

We want to see Christ defy the laws of nature and he is really walking on air and liquid, both are impossible, but that is what people want.

Resurrection is impossible too. SO Christ did not REturn to Life after three days?


The creator does not defy his creation by being Lord over it. We see from all over scripture that the physcial world obeys whatevver God wills. It is not defiance of something.. when you are Lord and Creator of it.

So when Christ was transfigured and ascended to heaven from his Apostles.. he was bieng pulled upwards by tornado winds?

When CHrist says that He is with us.. well it is impossible that he coul dbe with us all at the same time.. so He is only with us one at a time?

No. The Living Spirit rules over the physcal world, I believe Adam and Eve could do the same things to their own extent before the fall.

If you want to believe he walked on air, by all means believe that. I wont stop you.

It is more logical that he turned the water to a solid under his feet, than walking on air, but if you want to think that, be my guest.

How do you know he actually walked on water, as in really walking on water? Answer is YOU DONT. I am thinking through the issue more than you are, if you want to believe he walked on AIR AND WATER, be my guest.

The resurrection you mention is a red herring.

Christ is Lord of creation, I have not denied it, though you want me to. Not going to happen.

Creation obeys what Christ said, and everything he had done is done in a natural way, the power behind it are supernatural. But what he does and the outcome are not supernatural.

Someone dying is natural, someone living after being raised is natural. The power inbetween is supernatural, but it causes the natural to go back to being natural. Death to life are both natural, it is impossible for man to raise the dead. But living and death are not supernatural. Christ exercises hie own authority over both.

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I believe Adam and Eve could do the same things to their own extent before the fall.

How do you know that? Answer is YOU DON'T. PROVE IT. YOU CANT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW THAT. Yet, it is an assumption you made based off what you have read in the bible and came to a conclusion you can not prove. It is an OPINION/A BELIEF based off information.

There is nothing wrong with it, yet you seem to get bent out of shape when others do it, yet you feel very comfortable making similar claims. Your claim is ILLOGICAL, yet it is acceptable. Because it is, I assume, based off you having the ability to make an opinion off biblical data. Just because I do not agree with it, does not make it wrong becuase I disagree with it. Yet, if you disagree it with it, it is automatically wrong, because ASH does not agree or believe such a thing i possible.

Yet you make the claim like it is a fact! You can not back it up at all. Because it is an extrapolation of biblical date outside the norm. You know what ASH, IT IS OK FOR PEOPLE TO DO IT! It is how people and scholars and thinkers grow and come up with new ideas.


So my question is: Why is it you can make claims like these and do not back it up, yet every time I make a similar claim you jump down my throat for making it?

All I am saying Ash is be consistent with your ability to think outside the box and other people who think outside the box.

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Someone dying is natural

I disagree.

Dying is unatural. THe world we live in is unatural. It is in a cursed fallen state, hence an "unnatural state" of death.

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How do you know that? Answer is YOU DON'T. PROVE IT. YOU CANT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW THAT.

MAybe you noticed I prefaced my statement with " I believe", instead of " it is" or something else that would imply factuality. "I believe" is used to imply a belief and not a fact.

And I base my belief in that with my experience iwth the holy spirit when he as come upon me in power. From that vantage point I have come to certain belifs about what man is and what he is capable of... apart from his fallen limitations. Nor I am interestied i "proving" such ideas, as proof is subjective anyways.,

Kamerad Ash wrote:

Quote :

Someone dying is natural

I disagree.

Dying is unatural. THe world we live in is unatural. It is in a cursed fallen state, hence an "unnatural state" of death.

Quote :

How do you know that? Answer is YOU DON'T. PROVE IT. YOU CANT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW THAT.

MAybe you noticed I prefaced my statement with " I believe", instead of " it is" or something else that would imply factuality. "I believe" is used to imply a belief and not a fact.

If I type something, it is my opinion. It is stated that I write something that it is my opinion, unless I back it up.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that on a forum, if Lord Voldemort types something it is Lord Voldemorts opinion. It should be assumed that it is an opinion, not fact. Unless I back it up with something. This is not a scholarly debate where I need to dot every I and cross every T.

Lower your standard on statements. It would make life easier here.

I can't help it if you over-react to the way I contend issues. You seem to take it personally. I don't.

I am aware your statements are opinions and not fact. I have pointed out that you pose them as facts by the way you write them, that is all.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

I can't help it if you over-react to the way I contend issues. You seem to take it personally. I don't.

I am aware your statements are opinions and not fact. I have pointed out that you pose them as facts by the way you write them, that is all.

I do not take it personally.

I am just asking you, as well as others here that you tone down your rhetoric toward those whom you disagree with.

And be consistent.

lord voldemort wrote:

Kamerad Ash wrote:

I can't help it if you over-react to the way I contend issues. You seem to take it personally. I don't.

I am aware your statements are opinions and not fact. I have pointed out that you pose them as facts by the way you write them, that is all.

I do not take it personally.

I am just asking you, as well as others here that you tone down your rhetoric toward those whom you disagree with.

And be consistent.

So you are saying that you are Consistent? Cause yea.. I would disagree with that strongly. But thanks for asking.

We are derailing this.

But I want to make one point, you started this and nothing I do or say seems to help bring peace between you and I. You are the one who went after me, on personal level in the end time thread and you just hammered and hammered, Admins had to get involve and lock every thread you and I went in because you could not keep yourself peaceful. That is all I am asking out of you. I can deal with your arguments, on that level, and I would rather do that.

Your tactic on the end time thread and other other threads has colored you, so I do not know if you are serious or you are taking your snipe at me, you have blurred the lines so much, that I can not take anything you say in neutral matter. And all I have been asking is that you correct it and tell me that I can take you once again as neutral.

Due to your sniping in the end times thread has also colored me in your sight, which I did nothing to you. Other than asked you in the beginning to state your case, instead you stated your contempt for what I had to say, and I am not the only one to pick that up. You viewed me as arrogant, when I am not. You view me as arrogant because that is how you see me. You have colored this, and it had destroyed an sense of neutrality between us.

I am asking you to lay your view of me aside and all of this will go away, I can take you more serious. If this is to subtle for you, I am asking for a peace between us.

I think we are in error if we try to explain the ways of God using 'human' understanding. I feel more comfortable believing that God can do anything He wants and is not bound by the same natural laws as us humans.

lord voldemort wrote:

We are derailing this.

But I want to make one point, you started this and nothing I do or say seems to help bring peace between you and I. You are the one who went after me, on personal level in the end time thread and you just hammered and hammered, Admins had to get involve and lock every thread you and I went in because you could not keep yourself peaceful. That is all I am asking out of you. I can deal with your arguments, on that level, and I would rather do that.

Your tactic on the end time thread and other other threads has colored you, so I do not know if you are serious or you are taking your snipe at me, you have blurred the lines so much, that I can not take anything you say in neutral matter. And all I have been asking is that you correct it and tell me that I can take you once again as neutral.

Due to your sniping in the end times thread has also colored me in your sight, which I did nothing to you. Other than asked you in the beginning to state your case, instead you stated your contempt for what I had to say, and I am not the only one to pick that up. You viewed me as arrogant, when I am not. You view me as arrogant because that is how you see me. You have colored this, and it had destroyed an sense of neutrality between us.

I am asking you to lay your view of me aside and all of this will go away, I can take you more serious. If this is to subtle for you, I am asking for a peace between us.

Bro, I'm sorry you think about me so much. Jeez.


Writing posts like this just creates drama where there ought to be none.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

lord voldemort wrote:

We are derailing this.

But I want to make one point, you started this and nothing I do or say seems to help bring peace between you and I. You are the one who went after me, on personal level in the end time thread and you just hammered and hammered, Admins had to get involve and lock every thread you and I went in because you could not keep yourself peaceful. That is all I am asking out of you. I can deal with your arguments, on that level, and I would rather do that.

Your tactic on the end time thread and other other threads has colored you, so I do not know if you are serious or you are taking your snipe at me, you have blurred the lines so much, that I can not take anything you say in neutral matter. And all I have been asking is that you correct it and tell me that I can take you once again as neutral.

Due to your sniping in the end times thread has also colored me in your sight, which I did nothing to you. Other than asked you in the beginning to state your case, instead you stated your contempt for what I had to say, and I am not the only one to pick that up. You viewed me as arrogant, when I am not. You view me as arrogant because that is how you see me. You have colored this, and it had destroyed an sense of neutrality between us.

I am asking you to lay your view of me aside and all of this will go away, I can take you more serious. If this is to subtle for you, I am asking for a peace between us.

Bro, I'm sorry you think about me so much. Jeez.


Writing posts like this just creates drama where there ought to be none.

I'm not getting involved in the arguement, but with all due respect, practice what you preach hypocrite. How dare you point at Voldemort creating all this drama, when it's posts like that which create it. There was a reason why you were banned at another forum. Maybe perhaps getting the speck out of Voldemort's eye, you get that wooden freight train out of yours.

holy chocolate cookies, batman.

I'm sorry I disagreed with Lord V. I'll try to agree with everything he says so as no to make everybody unhappy.

uhmm.. yea.

Kamerad Ash wrote:

holy chocolate cookies, batman.

I'm sorry I disagreed with Lord V. I'll try to agree with everything he says so as no to make everybody unhappy.

uhmm.. yea.

It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me, I do not mind if people disagree with me.

I just do not like with they are very disrespectful about it, that causes problems.

You are the one who causes Drama around here, you are just sly enough to be slippery about it.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, we have had some good disucssions when we disagreed and agreed. All I am asking is that we get back to that point.

I'm respectful most of the time.. but not everytime. Just like Everybody else who posts.

Let's talk more about me and lord v , so we can get this thread locked.

wintersdawn wrote:

I agree, God is not bound by physical or natural restrictions and to try and explain miracles using natural explanations is to reduce what God is capable of. He can walk on actual water if He wants, He is above nature and it is not wrong for Him to be.

It does not reduce him at all. That is the fallacy that all make, the reason for it is because God/Spiritual is superior to Physical realm, thus for him to actually uses physical means is a no-no.

The concept comes from Spirit is good and flesh is evil. Therefore God can not use the physical because it is evil and since he is spirit/good, he can not do it.

Which creates a false dilemma.

Every act God has done is physical, water to "blood" to locus to first born dying, to parting the red sea, all done in the physical world by physical means. The only difference is that it was done by a spiritual being.

Which means God using the physical is not evil. God used Earthquakes, not some "spiritual unexplainable act". Earthquake is natural.

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Every act God has done is physical, water to "blood" to locus to first born dying, to parting the red sea, all done in the physical world by physical means. The only difference is that it was done by a spiritual being.

That is according to you, please don't forget that. I know you have a great deal of knowledge about spiritual matters but please don't let that lead you into thinking that you 'know' things that 'no-one' knows.

I believe that God can use the physical realm to achieve His purpose, but I do not restrict God to 'only' the physical realm and further believe that He can 'step outside' of our reality and do anything. For instance, God can turn water into wine without the need for the component parts of wine being found in water. That maybe the only way 'we' can understand it, but let's not 'confine' God by our understanding, He is much bigger!

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Every act God has done is physical

So when God saves you, that is a physical act? Come on, you know better.

I assume you mean to say " every physcially involved act that God does is physical". -- At which I woudl also say you are wrong on multiple levels.


Every physical experience of any sentient life is always at first spiritual, before it is physical. The driver ( the spirit).. has to be in the car, before he can experience the physical act of driving.

Even this post on the internet is a "spiritual" event.. and not just physical. It is because I have a mind and a spirit.. both of which are not measurable in physical means.. that I thought the thoughts to come on this internet site, observe your post ( by having a spirit that inhabits a physical body).. and then type a phsycial response to your spiritual induced physical posts.

So I would say.."every physcial Act we do.. and God as well.. is also a spiritual act".. and also " that everytime you read a post onteh internet you are acting outside of the pysical// which then is manifested in thought and then phsycial movement of your fingures to type a message ont eh computer'.

Everything we do is spiritual... everything we percieve is percieve in our phsyical soroounding and experiences.. is percieved through byour spirit.. through teh physical vessel that inhabits this "experience".

In the same sense, GOd does not need to change the composition of water to walk on it.. he can merely decide not to fall through it.. and the water wil obey. That is becaues the water Exists only Because He exists.

The water is water because he God is God. All physical things come from Spirit.

" God said Let theri be Light, and there was Light".

Just as God spoke the world into existence.. and therefore theefore the world exists because he spoke.. the physical world is nothing more than a spiritual command.

wintersdawn wrote:

Quote :

Every act God has done is physical, water to "blood" to locus to first born dying, to parting the red sea, all done in the physical world by physical means. The only difference is that it was done by a spiritual being.

That is according to you, please don't forget that. I know you have a great deal of knowledge about spiritual matters but please don't let that lead you into thinking that you 'know' things that 'no-one' knows.

I believe that God can use the physical realm to achieve His purpose, but I do not restrict God to 'only' the physical realm and further believe that He can 'step outside' of our reality and do anything. For instance, God can turn water into wine without the need for the component parts of wine being found in water. That maybe the only way 'we' can understand it, but let's not 'confine' God by our understanding, He is much bigger!

I am not limiting God only to the physical. I am saying that God works through the physical.

Most restrict God to the spiritual, and deny or lessen the physical. Which is what I am trying to balance out.

It comes back to the false dilemma that Physical is bad and spiritual is good. Which has colored the theology of understanding miracles.

My stance fully affirms God's control over everything, but because I point to the physical, I am accused of denying or lessening the Spiritual. Which is the same problem others have with the physical.

Just because I say that the physical is what God uses, does not deny God as supernatural. It actually affirms it even more. Than just saying the entire thing is spiritual because God turned water to wine. If you leave it on that level of spiritual you leave it open for people to not understand it. Due to Spirit is Good and physical is bad, therefore, God is acting outside of our understanding.

When in reality he is acting within our understanding and out realm. But we deny that wholely.