Anselm defines God is that than which no greater can be conceived. If you accept that as true that it is safe to assume that anything he tells us is good and true (if you believe that goodness is greater than evil and the truth is greater than lies). If you accept that what God (God is that than which no greater can be conceived) says is true (that homosexuality is wrong) than it is in fact that simple.

However is you disagree with the first statement than the issue is far more complicated. For an orthodox christian (one who believes the creeds) the issue is settled.

I'm orthodox.

Awesome, I believe that the practice of homosexuality is wrong, not the temptation. The temptation, the desire for and attraction to the same gender is like the temptation to sin in any other way. I also think that with God's help, prayer and discipleship it can be (for the most part) overcome. Meaning the desire can be eliminated.

That's pretty much where I stand....but i think it's a very very very deep temptation and incredible hard to change if not impossible. If it happened that I had homosexual fantasies and couldn't get over them...i would say the best plan of action would be just to deny sexuality all together. It's a better option. For example, see Morrisey haha.

My opinion:

Don't discuss your opinion on homosexuality, abortion or the war on terror with a non-Christian and (consciously or not) present it as God's word. I am in no way accusing you, Davis, or anyone else present. My point is this: Christians spend too much time talking about politics. If you want to win over a friend, tell them what they should do first, and save the "don't"'s for later. We change because we recognize God's goodness and we are saved, not vice versa.

LastFirstborn wrote:

My opinion:

Don't discuss your opinion on homosexuality, abortion or the war on terror with a non-Christian and (consciously or not) present it as God's word. I am in no way accusing you, Davis, or anyone else present. My point is this: Christians spend too much time talking about politics. If you want to win over a friend, tell them what they should do first, and save the "don't"'s for later. We change because we see God's goodness and we are saved, not vice versa.

True that.


I have two close friends in college who were homosexuals before being saved. One doesn't struggle at all anymore with homosexual thoughts and leads a small group of homosexuals/former homosexuals on campus to help them with there struggle. The other still struggles occasionally. There is hope. I am studying religion and psychology in school (two fields with VERY different views on the issue). So I have spent a decent chunk of time trying to figure out my opinion.

Matt wrote:

People blow up certain sins (like homosexuality or premarital sex) and put them on a huge pedestal, compared to other sin (like lying, stealing, ...) while the bible clearly says all sin are equal with the exception of one.

No, the Bible clearly says some sins lead to death and others do not.
Anyway, homosexuality is not a sin, it is a disorder. HOWEVER, homosexual behavior is gravely sinful.

all sin lead to death if it wasn't for Christ's grace

I am aware. If we have Christ's grace in us, venial sins (sins that are not of grave matter), it will not kill His grace and lead us to death. But mortal sins (sins of grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of the will) kill grace in our soul and we cannot go to Heaven. Mortal sins are not easy to commit...

If i go kill the gay man next door then im sinning no more or less than him for commiting those acts, sin is sin no matter what, i myself was taught this on the blabber board when they posted the topic of the scum baby killer who was shot, needless to say his murder was still a sin

Matt wrote:

all sin lead to death if it wasn't for Christ's grace

One hundred percent on the money.

Being homosexual is not a sin. Lust is always a sin, whether it's lust for the same or opposite sex. So is sexual intercourse between people of the same sex, because that is directly against God's design and plan for only a male and a female to become one in sexual intimacy, hence making it sinful. However, I am fully of the belief that one can be homosexual and even like it, and still follow Christ completely. The life of a homosexual Christian is a life of complete sexual abstinence, aside from admiration that isn't induced by lust in any way. So, is it impossible for a homosexual to consider themselves a follower of Jesus Christ? Most definitely not. But neither is it preferable for a Christian to be homosexual.

This is where you are muddying things up a little.

I can speak from firsthand experience, that you cannot be a homosexual and fully follow the teachings of Christ...
Cos if you truly are following God with all your heart, mind and soul, you also have to do everything with God's strength, power and go thru some good prayful counseling to get rid of these homosexual inclinations and thoughts- see where they stemmed from and what ties, bonds, strongholds are in your life etc. As it gets in the way of fully trusting and loving God with all your heart.
ANY sin does! Not just homosexuality for sure, all sin that is a prominent fixture in your life, clouds your views and closeness with the Lord.

therockismighty wrote:

This is where you are muddying things up a little.

I can speak from firsthand experience, that you cannot be a homosexual and fully follow the teachings of Christ...
Cos if you truly are following God with all your heart, mind and soul, you also have to do everything with God's strength, power and go thru some good prayful counseling to get rid of these homosexual inclinations and thoughts- see where they stemmed from and what ties, bonds, strongholds are in your life etc. As it gets in the way of fully trusting and loving God with all your heart.
ANY sin does! Not just homosexuality for sure, all sin that is a prominent fixture in your life, clouds your views and closeness with the Lord.

Having a brain that's naturally wired to be attracted to the same sex is neither an inherent sin nor an inherent hindrance of faith.

some of those who have had same sex relationships are not naturally wired to have these relationships, it is due to environment, horrible things happening to them, emotional pain, parental abuse etc etc people turn to it.

This is what happened with me and I knew afterwards I had seeds planted along the way that were not of God, slowly but surely you can fall for lies and temptations set up by the Enemy,... thus why what I said is founded on actual experience not some article or know it all attitude.

therockismighty wrote:

some of those who have had same sex relationships are not naturally wired to have these relationships, it is due to environment, horrible things happening to them, emotional pain, parental abuse etc etc people turn to it.

This is what happened with me and I knew afterwards I had seeds planted along the way that were not of God, slowly but surely you can fall for lies and temptations set up by the Enemy,... thus why what I said is founded on actual experience not some article or know it all attitude.

I'm sorry to hear that, I really am. Even though I still disagree, I will agree to disagree on this topic.

You seem very strong in the faith, and I respect that. May God bless you greatly in your continual pursuit of His own heart!

thanks mate. Same.

Kan-o-sushi wrote:

Alright, so I was having a discussion about why homosexuality is evil with a non-christian friend of mine, and I will sum it up for you:

1. Homosexuality is evil because it breaks God's law.
a) So what?
1. God's law is a direct reflection of his holy nature, to break his law is to do something contrary to his nature. This is the essence of what sin is - that which is contrary to his nature.
a) Why is Homosexuality contrary to his nature?


That question I was incapable of answering. Now, what I said was that it is contrary to his nature because homosexuality is unholy where as God is holy. But his holiness is part of his nature... which just leads back to the same question.

If the reason why Homosexuality is sinful is because it is contrary to Gods nature, then why is it contrary to God's nature?

I need help figuring this out so I can give him an answer to this question.

"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" -Romans 13:10


The question is: why is homosexuality contrary to God's nature?

Consider the following argument: God is love. Love, Paul tells us, does no harm to a neighbor. If homosexuality does harm to one's neighbor (partner/partners) it would, therefore, be contrary to love (God's nature). So is homosexuality harmful to one's neighbor? Consider in particular the portion in yellow below.

Whatever one’s position on the whole question of homosexuality, I don’t think any person with love for, and genuine feeling for other human beings can but be saddened and alarmed by the statistics (from Thomas E. Schmidt’s Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove: IVP, 1995); this book is used as a text in sexual ethics in many theological seminaries today). Schmidt (PhD Cambridge) refused to use any data from sources that could even possibly be interpreted as biased (e.g. Family Research Council), choosing rather hundreds of references primarily from the hard sciences, e.g. medical journals, actuarial data of deaths, psychology journals, sociology jounals, criminal records, etc., all secular and many sympathetic to homosexuals and their struggles. What did Schmidt find?

Compulsive promiscuity: 75% of homosexual men have more than 100 partners during their lifetime, over half of which are strangers. Only 8% of homosexual men and 7% of homosexual women EVER have a relationship which lasts over 3 years.

Correlation with drugs and alcohol: Homosexuals are 3X more likely to be problem drinkers. 47% have a history of alcohol abuse; 51% have a history of drug abuse. There is a direct correlation between number of partners and amount of drugs used. Among adolescent homosexuals, 68% of males and 56% of females currently use drugs.

40% of homosexual men have a history of major depression, compared with 3% of men in general. In a recent survey, 70% of psychiatrists maintain this is entirely unrelated to social stigmatization.

Homosexual men are six times more likely to attempt suicide than the general population (homosexual women are two times more likely).

Homosexual men are much more likely to become pedophiles. 33% of homosexuals ADMiT to having had sex with minors as an adult.

It is a well-kept secret that homosexual activity, 80% of which is done by men, poses significant physical dangers, including eventual prostate damage, ulcers, rupture, and chronic incontinence and diarrhea. Sexually transmitted disease is rampant. 78% of homosexual men carry one or more sexually transmitted diseases WHOLLY APART FROM AIDS including many kinds of non-viral infections such as gonorrhea, syphilis, various other bacterial infections and parasites including flukes and amoebae. Also very common among homosexuals are viral infections like herpes and hepatitis B, which affects 65% of homosexual men! (both of these are incurable) as well as hepatitis A and anal warts, which afflict 40% of homosexual men. All this is not even including AIDS.

The most horrible –and shocking- statistics relate to life expectancy. Leaving aside those who die from AIDS, the life expectancy of a homosexual, male is about 45, vs 70 years for men in general (45 vs. 79 yrs. for lesbian vs. heterosexual married women). If you include those who die from AIDS, which now infects 30% of homosexual men, the life expectancy of a homosexual male drops to 39 years.

The very suggestion that Christian homosexuals should practice abstinence is often vilified as cruel and intolerant. How much more cruel is it to involve oneself and especially other human beings in a lifestyle that has such a heavy cost? If you are a homosexual who is also a Christian, I would urge you to consider practicing abstinence. God requires no less of all single persons. Not only should you as a Christian homosexual keep your body pure, but you should also avoid pornography and fantasizing; these will pull you back into a lifestyle that destroys human beings whom God loves. Counseling should be sought out.

One thing I cannot tolerate is Christian hatred towards homosexual persons. Especially by antinomian ‘Christians,’ like one guy I met who had one of the deepest hatreds for homosexuals I ever saw who bragged about his own sexual relationship with a girl he wasn’t married to! Homosexuals are human beings just like any other for whom Christ died. Vulgar, pejorative epithets and unkind jokes should never pass the lips of a person calling themselves ‘Christian’ towards homosexuals. Hatred least of all! We, all of us, have been broken in many ways. Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to save/heal (same word in the Greek). In our brokenness, we, all of us, also break others. Still, the danger to children is alarming to me. Any behavior even half this destructive to other human beings well-qualifies for being viewed theologically as “sin,” which above all is about failure to truly care for those whom we claim to “love” (Rom 13:9).



Thomas E. Schmidt’s Straight and Narrow? (Downers Grove: IVP, 1995).
_____________________
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sirhemlock wrote:

Kan-o-sushi wrote:

Alright, so I was having a discussion about why homosexuality is evil with a non-christian friend of mine, and I will sum it up for you:

1. Homosexuality is evil because it breaks God's law.
a) So what?
1. God's law is a direct reflection of his holy nature, to break his law is to do something contrary to his nature. This is the essence of what sin is - that which is contrary to his nature.
a) Why is Homosexuality contrary to his nature?


That question I was incapable of answering. Now, what I said was that it is contrary to his nature because homosexuality is unholy where as God is holy. But his holiness is part of his nature... which just leads back to the same question.

If the reason why Homosexuality is sinful is because it is contrary to Gods nature, then why is it contrary to God's nature?

I need help figuring this out so I can give him an answer to this question.

"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" -Romans 13:10


The question is: why is homosexuality contrary to God's nature?

Consider the following argument: God is love. Love, Paul tells us, does no harm to a neighbor. If homosexuality does harm to one's neighbor (partner/partners) it would, therefore, be contrary to love (God's nature). So is homosexuality harmful to one's neighbor? Consider in particular the portion in yellow below.

Whatever one’s position on the whole question of homosexuality, I don’t think any person with love for, and genuine feeling for other human beings can but be saddened and alarmed by the statistics (from Thomas E. Schmidt’s Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove: IVP, 1995); this book is used as a text in sexual ethics in many theological seminaries today). Schmidt (PhD Cambridge) refused to use any data from sources that could even possibly be interpreted as biased (e.g. Family Research Council), choosing rather hundreds of references primarily from the hard sciences, e.g. medical journals, actuarial data of deaths, psychology journals, sociology jounals, criminal records, etc., all secular and many sympathetic to homosexuals and their struggles. What did Schmidt find?

Compulsive promiscuity: 75% of homosexual men have more than 100 partners during their lifetime, over half of which are strangers. Only 8% of homosexual men and 7% of homosexual women EVER have a relationship which lasts over 3 years.

Correlation with drugs and alcohol: Homosexuals are 3X more likely to be problem drinkers. 47% have a history of alcohol abuse; 51% have a history of drug abuse. There is a direct correlation between number of partners and amount of drugs used. Among adolescent homosexuals, 68% of males and 56% of females currently use drugs.

40% of homosexual men have a history of major depression, compared with 3% of men in general. In a recent survey, 70% of psychiatrists maintain this is entirely unrelated to social stigmatization.

Homosexual men are six times more likely to attempt suicide than the general population (homosexual women are two times more likely).

Homosexual men are much more likely to become pedophiles. 33% of homosexuals ADMiT to having had sex with minors as an adult.

It is a well-kept secret that homosexual activity, 80% of which is done by men, poses significant physical dangers, including eventual prostate damage, ulcers, rupture, and chronic incontinence and diarrhea. Sexually transmitted disease is rampant. 78% of homosexual men carry one or more sexually transmitted diseases WHOLLY APART FROM AIDS including many kinds of non-viral infections such as gonorrhea, syphilis, various other bacterial infections and parasites including flukes and amoebae. Also very common among homosexuals are viral infections like herpes and hepatitis B, which affects 65% of homosexual men! (both of these are incurable) as well as hepatitis A and anal warts, which afflict 40% of homosexual men. All this is not even including AIDS.

The most horrible –and shocking- statistics relate to life expectancy. Leaving aside those who die from AIDS, the life expectancy of a homosexual, male is about 45, vs 70 years for men in general (45 vs. 79 yrs. for lesbian vs. heterosexual married women). If you include those who die from AIDS, which now infects 30% of homosexual men, the life expectancy of a homosexual male drops to 39 years.

The very suggestion that Christian homosexuals should practice abstinence is often vilified as cruel and intolerant. How much more cruel is it to involve oneself and especially other human beings in a lifestyle that has such a heavy cost? If you are a homosexual who is also a Christian, I would urge you to consider practicing abstinence. God requires no less of all single persons. Not only should you as a Christian homosexual keep your body pure, but you should also avoid pornography and fantasizing; these will pull you back into a lifestyle that destroys human beings whom God loves. Counseling should be sought out.

One thing I cannot tolerate is Christian hatred towards homosexual persons. Especially by antinomian ‘Christians,’ like one guy I met who had one of the deepest hatreds for homosexuals I ever saw who bragged about his own sexual relationship with a girl he wasn’t married to! Homosexuals are human beings just like any other for whom Christ died. Vulgar, pejorative epithets and unkind jokes should never pass the lips of a person calling themselves ‘Christian’ towards homosexuals. Hatred least of all! We, all of us, have been broken in many ways. Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to save/heal (same word in the Greek). In our brokenness, we, all of us, also break others. Still, the danger to children is alarming to me. Any behavior even half this destructive to other human beings well-qualifies for being viewed theologically as “sin,” which above all is about failure to truly care for those whom we claim to “love” (Rom 13:9).



Thomas E. Schmidt’s Straight and Narrow? (Downers Grove: IVP, 1995).

I myself do not hate homosexuals at all, i hate no human, not even osama i mean obama, now i might display a dislike towards said persons acts, but i do hate anyone