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 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?

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Death over Life

Death over Life

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:49 pm

I have decided on those 2 because it is those 2 that are taught the most prevalent in Christianity, and as such, which do you view is the correct view on the 2nd death? I myself have come to the conclusion that Annihilationism is the Truth of the 2nd Death and on Hell/The Grave.
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The Last Firstborn

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:08 pm

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Last edited by The Last Firstborn on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:35 am; edited 4 times in total
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Hero

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:56 pm

I did read your reply, and I'll reply back tomorrow, or when I'll have time. Tonight's been kinda busy, am tired and don't feel like arguing right now. so, I'm just saying that I read your stuff, I will reply, just not now.
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Death over Life

Death over Life

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:37 pm

It's cool. Whenever you are ready.

And I forgot to add, but to an extent, I do agree with Lastfirstborn as well.
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wizardovmetal

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:34 am

its the second death for a reason, it is true death, heres a simple reason why i beleive that, one: its called the second DEATH, two, the gift of god is eternal life, three, christ references fearing not those who can destroy the body but god who can destroy both the soul and the body. man only receives immortality by a gift of god. never in the bible does it say an eternal life in hell, it says eternal death quite a few times. i do beleive in a hell, where there is darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it is not eternal, it is a holding place for those who will be judged and did not have christ. when your born "again" it means you are born of the spirit, and now immortal.
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olias

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:11 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
i do beleive in a hell, where there is darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it is not eternal, it is a holding place for those who will be judged and did not have christ. when your born "again" it means you are born of the spirit, and now immortal.

What is the basis for a temporary hell?
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wizardovmetal

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:13 am

olias wrote:
wizardovmetal wrote:
i do beleive in a hell, where there is darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it is not eternal, it is a holding place for those who will be judged and did not have christ. when your born "again" it means you are born of the spirit, and now immortal.

What is the basis for a temporary hell?

waiting for judgement.
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olias

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:14 am

i mean biblical. Forgot to put that word there.
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wizardovmetal

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:54 am

olias wrote:
i mean biblical. Forgot to put that word there.
i will have to look it up, i have a good tendency to remember the bible, but not the coordinates, you will often find me quoting scripture but not knowing the book and verse.
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Hero

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:08 pm

Revelations 20:7-
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Why would the lake of fire be a place for eternal torments for the beast, satan and a false prophet while it would also serve as annihilation for others? Makes no sense to me. Also, one thing I believe is wrong with annihilationism is that we apply our poor understanding of death to Godly things. When people die here on Earth, many believe they cease to exist because they do not see them any more, because we are bound to the physical and for many, what they do not see in the physical just doesn't exist. So let's say this is simply an "earthly thought". How then should the second death be the annihilation of the soul when we have so little understanding of the first death in general.


In the end, from God's Eyes, the debate is between the definition of "death" vs. "forever"

*note: will edit with more scriptures.

edit:

[i]Revelations 14:9-11
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


To me, this is as clear as it gets.
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Hero

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:24 pm

To say that the second death is annihilation, to me, is an extremely dangerous thing to say. As it appears a lot less bad. It leaves people into believing that "well... it ain't that bad, we're gonna die anyways".

No. Souls are immortal, we live our lives as a test. It has to be taken extremely seriously. Heathens should be worried about where their souls end up. We should be worried about how to please God as much as possible. Not with the fear of hell, but with the fear of displeasing The Lord our God.

While I disagree with the fire and brimstone approach, it should never be discarded as Jesus spoke about it a lot, while still talking a lot about God's Love. There's been a time where fire and brimstone was over used, and then there is now. Nobody talks about hell anymore, we don't wanna scare anyone. But that is also because a more "in your face" approach brings more persecution then if you simply talk on and on and on about love and not about the Justice of God.

God is Love. And because He is Love, He is Just. Because He is Just, judgment will fall on people according to what they have done. This is why Jesus' death is so important, because through Him we are cleansed. He acted like the counter weight on the balance of God's Justice.

I believe the worst thing anyone can do is take God's Love in vain. As in, "I know you love me, I know you died for me, but I don't wanna change. Not right now". And by doing so, they crucify Jesus every time they sin. It's neglecting God to the highest level.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


This is also why the worst place anyone can be in is being a lukewarm Christian. To be a bold sinner is better than to be a lukewarm Christian. The lukewarm Christian willingly sins in secret while knowing better, neglecting God to the highest level. Not only that, but lukewarm Christians have no savor. They lost their "saltiness".
Revelations 3:15-16
15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.


Matthew 5:13
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
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The Last Firstborn

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:16 pm

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Last edited by The Last Firstborn on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hero

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:24 pm

Justice is key here.
God is perfect, because he is Just, there is a place for the good guys and a place for the bad guys. Everyone will be judged according to what they've done. To view God as a sadistic tormentor is just the easy way out of our bad conscience. We do wrong stuff, we pay for it. We do good stuff we get rewarded. We choose where we go by the way we live, as far as condemning anyone, no one on Earth can do that. But what we are sure of is that God is Just.

Also, the leap of faith that it takes to believe in God is only momentary. I mean, God is everywhere in the unexplained beauty of the Earth we live on that we keep destroying over the years. Then, there is also the miracles and wonders that those who believe do, according to The Bible. And it does happen. I've seen it, I've experienced it.

Souls are immortal because of how the bible describes eternal judgment. Those in hell / lake of fire (after) suffer eternally, yet they are far from God. The difference I think is that when we are with God, we have everything we need and much more on a general basis. From emotional needs to anything else.


Last edited by Hero on Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Last Firstborn

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:30 pm

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Last edited by The Last Firstborn on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hero

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:43 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
Hell as most Christians perceive it is a completely disproportionate punishment for any wrongdoing; no way around it.

I know what you mean.
I think the problem is that most people are in blissful ignorance. They live their lives influenced by the culture and society. These same things that are stained to the bone with sins and abominations to God's Eyes. We must try to perceive it with God's Eyes. He is Perfect. If He would show Himself to me right now, the Bible says I'd die because of how impure I am compared to Him. Sin creates a wall between God and us and this is why before the fall God could be seen, compared to now. To be with God, we must be like Him. And this process isn't made by human force. Humans must be willing, and God operates.

And it's not like God does not try to get people out of their filth. People who stay in the sins willfully choose to. God is Just, everyone will have according to what they've done. I say this because I can't make a big line saying this or that person will suffer eternally or not. But I know whatever happens, God is Just. That being said, I also know what the bible says:
1 Corinthians 6:9-15 (New International Version)
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
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The Last Firstborn

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:33 pm

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Last edited by The Last Firstborn on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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wizardovmetal

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:38 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
If God's will is alien to and incompatible with human scrutiny, then trying to understand it is pointless.

it isnt, we are given the ability to understand him through the spirit.

2 Cor. 3:16-18, "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

i have experienced this multiple times.
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olias

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:37 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
If God's will is alien to and incompatible with human scrutiny, then trying to understand it is pointless.

G-d's is perfectly clear in his mizvoth. It's his nature that is alien and impossible for the puny human psyche to comprehend. Not to say we can't postulate. Really, most of our confusion about what he wants is from human distortion, but this natural that this should happen. Things progress and change.

I could say something else concerning that last sentence, but I would catch a sh*t ton of flack for it.
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The Last Firstborn

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:25 pm

Say it.
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wizardovmetal

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:43 pm

do it
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Death over Life

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:48 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
olias wrote:
i mean biblical. Forgot to put that word there.
i will have to look it up, i have a good tendency to remember the bible, but not the coordinates, you will often find me quoting scripture but not knowing the book and verse.

Wizard, I thought you didn’t believe what I did? Sounds pretty much what I saying in your‘ first post, but I don’t think you fully grasp what I say, which is why you didn’t agree 100%.

I think I have answered for you on your’ suicide thread however.

Hero wrote:
Revelations 20:7-
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hero wrote:

Why would the lake of fire be a place for eternal torments for the beast, satan and a false prophet while it would also serve as annihilation for others? Makes no sense to me. Also, one thing I believe is wrong with annihilationism is that we apply our poor understanding of death to Godly things. When people die here on Earth, many believe they cease to exist because they do not see them any more, because we are bound to the physical and for many, what they do not see in the physical just doesn't exist. So let's say this is simply an "earthly thought". How then should the second death be the annihilation of the soul when we have so little understanding of the first death in general.

There is quite a huge difference between Satan/Beast/False Prophet, and unbelievers. To begin with from what I’ve researched, it is the ANGELS that have an inherent eternal soul. This is why fallen angels, after the fall, they CAN’T and NEVER will be redeemed. Death is a requirement for us humans to be redeemed, hence why we can die and still be saved through Christ. We sinned in the physical realm, but with Christ, we can be redeemed in the spiritual world. Angels, sinned in the spiritual realm, and with their inherent eternal soul, they will be tormented.

This explains the afterlife of Tartarus, which is the Pit/Abyss, also shown in Luke.

I can debunk your “poor understanding of death” with this: (and this is what Jesus said)

John 14:6 (King James Version)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, Jesus is the Way, which we all know and agree. Jesus is the Truth, which we all know and agree. Jesus is the Life. What does this mean? What we experience right now, being able to breathe, rest, have emotions, thoughts, feelings, movement, this is what the definition of life is, and Jesus claims he is Life. Since Death means cessation of Life, that means death is cessation of everything I just said. If this isn’t the definition of death, then Christ is a liar, as I don’t need Him to have life.

The problem is, we DO know and understand what death is. That imo, was just a cop-out to properly challenge the opposing view, no disrespect intended.

I have a question that I will need answered at the end of the post.


Hero wrote:

In the end, from God's Eyes, the debate is between the definition of "death" vs. "forever"

*note: will edit with more scriptures.

edit:

[i]Revelations 14:9-11
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


To me, this is as clear as it gets.

I don’t know which version you are using, but I’ll use the Sinaiticus for this:

4:9 And the third angel followed them, saying, with a loud voice: If any one worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand, even he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared without mixture in the cup of his indignation;
10 and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb;
11 and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age; and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.


Now, age to age is different than forever and ever, but by the end of the night, remember, the Lake is the Final Judgement, and with that, this is showing that what has been judged is forever/eternal, there is no changing.

I think we all misinterpret what this says, but this is one part that does show of an eternal torment, but once again, it is dealing specifically with the beast/false prophet/ etc. not any and every unbeleiver. So here, I would say the proper context relies on what is the beast/false prophet/setting/and of course context itself.

At the same time, I must also ask, does this explain the Lake of Fire, or Hades? From what I have garnered, if this applies to the afterlives, this would explain Hades, because Hades is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth will happen. This has been explained throughout the Bible, although it was all translated as Hell, so it brings confusion.

Hero wrote:
To say that the second death is annihilation, to me, is an extremely dangerous thing to say. As it appears a lot less bad. It leaves people into believing that "well... it ain't that bad, we're gonna die anyways".

Your’ opinion. It is far more dangerous and damaging to say that the 2nd death is torment, because torment is not death. You require life to be tormented, so how can life = death? Death = Death and Life = Life, there is no way around this.

Hero wrote:

No. Souls are immortal, we live our lives as a test. It has to be taken extremely seriously. Heathens should be worried about where their souls end up. We should be worried about how to please God as much as possible. Not with the fear of hell, but with the fear of displeasing The Lord our God.

So you made a claim. Got anything to back that up? I have backed up my claim that Human souls are not eternal. I await your’ evidence otherwise.

Hero wrote:

While I disagree with the fire and brimstone approach, it should never be discarded as Jesus spoke about it a lot, while still talking a lot about God's Love. There's been a time where fire and brimstone was over used, and then there is now. Nobody talks about hell anymore, we don't wanna scare anyone. But that is also because a more "in your face" approach brings more persecution then if you simply talk on and on and on about love and not about the Justice of God.

Jesus did describe about weeping and gnashing of teeth and hellfire, but Jesus NEVER spoke of tormenting the unsaved. It only describes punishment. Punishment isn’t just torment alone, punishment also means deprivation of. Since the 2nd death is the Final Judgement/Lake of Fire, it is the deprivation of Christ, which/who is Life.

Hero wrote:

Souls are immortal because of how the bible describes eternal judgment. Those in hell / lake of fire (after) suffer eternally, yet they are far from God. The difference I think is that when we are with God, we have everything we need and much more on a general basis. From emotional needs to anything else.

You made the claim. I’d like to see the Scriptures for this, since you said the Bible describes eternal judgment.

Alright, since I’m at the end, here is the riddle that is nothing but Truth.

God is omnipresent is He not? God is even in the Lake of Fire, or even IS the Lake of Fire since the Lake of Fire IS God’s judgment? I’m not trying to make out there claims, but the context is God and His presence are eternally attached to the Lake of Fire since it is His and His’ judgment.

Now, if death really means torment and not death, and God is omnipresent, how can the Lake of Fire be eternal SEPARATION from God, when the Lake of Fire IS God’s judgement? If God is not present at all in the Lake of Fire, then that means the Lake of Fire isn’t God’s and as such, God isn’t an omnipresent God, which now we have contradictions in the Scriptures.

Now other than the language of Christ, I’ll post you the other major point that Reveals 2nd Death IS annihilation.

Revelation 20: 12-15 and 21: 1-4 (Codex Sinaiticus)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of the things that were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and hades have up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, every one according to his works.
14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away; and the sea was no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them; and they shall he his people, and God himself will be with them, their God.
4 And he will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death; neither shall there be any more sorrow, nor crying, nor pain; for the former things have passed away.

Alright. Let us take a look at 21 verse 4.

4 And he will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death; neither shall there be any more sorrow, nor crying, nor pain; for the former things have passed away.

So here it says, there is NO MORE death! Death is always here no matter how faithful you are, on this Earth, so something had to have happened to cause no more death to occur. What happened so that death no longer occurs? It is explained at the end:

for the former things have passed away.

What does passed away mean? Passed away means death, or it has died. So, from this shown, we can conlude in the New Age that Death has Died, which is why it no longer exists. How did Death die?

14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.

So, since the Lake of Fire is the 2nd Death, it has officially killed Death and thus death no longer exists. Since it is shown that death dies, and with the exception of the Beast/False Prophet exclusively, the Lake of Fire doesn’t play favorites on these kind of things.

This shows that what has happened to death, must also happen to Hades. So, Death and the grave have officially died. Note this last one:

15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This, means, what happens to Death, also happens to ALL that are still in Hades after the Judgement. These Scriptures alone in Revelation show off annihilationism, otherwise, we have things not making any sense. Now, add in what Christ actually preaches, and now we have who knows how much more evidence for this, as opposed to eternal torment.

Don’t get me wrong, annihilationism IS NOT denying that there will be torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unbelievers. It is teaching that this isn’t permanent, because the torment/weeping/gnashing is the feeling of what it’s like to lose your’ life spiritually since it is truly separated from God and Christ, since it is Truly separated not only from Life itself, but the essence of Life, leaving only True Death aka non existence.

If death is eternal life in torment, than once again, I don’t need Christ to have everlasting life, and makes Christ a liar. I want that claim challenged.

I await the reply! Smile And I as well want Olias to say what is on His' mind!
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wizardovmetal

wizardovmetal

Number of posts : 1056
Age : 32
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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:04 pm

Quote :
There is quite a huge difference between Satan/Beast/False Prophet, and unbelievers. To begin with from what I’ve researched, it is the ANGELS that have an inherent eternal soul. This is why fallen angels, after the fall, they CAN’T and NEVER will be redeemed. Death is a requirement for us humans to be redeemed, hence why we can die and still be saved through Christ. We sinned in the physical realm, but with Christ, we can be redeemed in the spiritual world. Angels, sinned in the spiritual realm, and with their inherent eternal soul, they will be tormented.
exactly.
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SSG Jake

SSG Jake

Number of posts : 369
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Registration date : 2010-07-14
Points : 5441

2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:21 pm

Wow. Once again, Death over Life lays down the law. I found that to be a very intersting read. I've never thought about it like that. But, that way makes sense. See, like I've said before, I'm a logical kid of guy. I liek things to make sense. and THIS makes sense. Two points, DOL, two points!
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olias

olias

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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:27 pm

As much as I love to disagree with Hero, I feel bad, coz we are always beatin' up on him Razz
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olias

olias

Number of posts : 2399
Age : 33
Location : USA
Registration date : 2009-07-10
Points : 8102

2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:32 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
Say it.

It would require admitting something I've told you about. And it's something that

A) Would make me lose a lot of friends over it.

B) I am not really interested in debating with others over it.
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2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Vide
PostSubject: Re: 2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...?   2nd Death: Eternal Torment, Annihilationism ...? Icon_minitime1

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