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SSG Jake

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:03 am

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
I'm all for changing my opinion if someone can just show me some proof of all of this. The things that I've read in no way showed any of this death cult stuff.

Anyone care to share some links or something?

Seconded. Though, any site given will jsut be labelec as hate speech, and ignorant. Political corectness will be the death of tis country.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:13 pm

FuneralOath wrote:
I don't want to sound like a crusader or an ignorant anti-islamic hillbilly, but I believe that the Islamic religion is demonic and may pose a threat to the West. If you truly understand the Surahs and what they teach, you will know that Islam is not a religion of peace, as promoted by liberal muslims who are not aware of what the Quran teaches. In Africa, regular run-off-the-mill muslims are taught the true teachings of the Quran and as a result regularly oppress non-Islamic Africans, especially Christians. What the terrorists and "extremists" do regularly, such as 9/11, is sanctioned and mandated in the Islamic religion. It is the liberal muslims who are not following the teachings of Muhammad. They have melded into mainstream western society, most of the being benevolent but many harboring true Islamic teaching. An Islamic "cultural center" especially near ground zero would be very misleading if not insulting, and is a common liberal "tolerance at any cost" move perpetrated by idealists. I am against this mosque.

This is an excellent test case which shows the strains and possible limits of the anti-estabishment clause in the First Amendment of the US Constitution (NOT to be confused with separation of church and state). Figuring out what is really meant by this clause, and how to apply it, etc. is far from easy.
Taken at face value, however, it seems clear that there is no sound basis for disallowing the mosque.
This is NOT a liberal position--in fact, it is quite "conservative" if by "conservative" one means taking what the Constitution says seriously (not that we have to agree with the Constitution, but it is the only
compelling basis by which we can appeal in US society). The clause says, simply, congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, OR THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. It seems to me
if one says "we shouldn't allow it to be built there because of the sensitivity, etc.", we are placing limits on that free exercise. (You can worship here, but not here, etc.) Indeed, the "liberal" positions is often the one that legislates according to feelings rather than Constitutional principles--so in this sense, the opposition is rather "liberal" (even though most everyone who has these feelings otherwise thinks of themselves as "conservative"--labels are the strangest things, aren't they? LOL)

Now, having said all this, I actually suspect that what is said about Islam may be correct--those who take the religion seriously should have antipathy toward the West. This makes us tempted to
not allow Islam as freedom of religion, just as in the past some stated that Catholicism should not be so protected (and there was actually a plausible argument for that--Catholics look to the Pope for leadership, who is not only a religious authority, but the head of a state, the Vatican. Of course, the argument fails because it completely misunderstands the distinciton of the Pope's temporal and spiritual authority--one who is Catholic is not under the Pope's directives regarding the operaiton of the Vatican as a state). But in any case, what our posiiton comes down to is this: if we take our Constitution seriously, then we believe that allowing beliefs which makes us uncomfortable is less oppressive than having the government, or the vote of the people, decide which religions should be tolerated, and how.
Obviously, BEHAVIOR can be censored--if someone's religion requires throwing virgins into volcanoes or having child sacrifices, we don't have to allow that, because we see religious liberty as a good of life, and not superior to this good. But, even views which can be interpreted as advocating the undermining of our freedoms should be tolerated until folks actually commit these actions. Otherwise, in censoring such things, we interfere with the very freedom we are supposedly trying to protect by censoring such things. Like it or not, that is the implication of the First Amendment.


graybeardheadbanger


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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:13 pm

graybeardheadbanger wrote:
FuneralOath wrote:
I don't want to sound like a crusader or an ignorant anti-islamic hillbilly, but I believe that the Islamic religion is demonic and may pose a threat to the West. If you truly understand the Surahs and what they teach, you will know that Islam is not a religion of peace, as promoted by liberal muslims who are not aware of what the Quran teaches. In Africa, regular run-off-the-mill muslims are taught the true teachings of the Quran and as a result regularly oppress non-Islamic Africans, especially Christians. What the terrorists and "extremists" do regularly, such as 9/11, is sanctioned and mandated in the Islamic religion. It is the liberal muslims who are not following the teachings of Muhammad. They have melded into mainstream western society, most of the being benevolent but many harboring true Islamic teaching. An Islamic "cultural center" especially near ground zero would be very misleading if not insulting, and is a common liberal "tolerance at any cost" move perpetrated by idealists. I am against this mosque.

This is an excellent test case which shows the strains and possible limits of the anti-estabishment clause in the First Amendment of the US Constitution (NOT to be confused with separation of church and state). Figuring out what is really meant by this clause, and how to apply it, etc. is far from easy.
Taken at face value, however, it seems clear that there is no sound basis for disallowing the mosque.
This is NOT a liberal position--in fact, it is quite "conservative" if by "conservative" one means taking what the Constitution says seriously (not that we have to agree with the Constitution, but it is the only
compelling basis by which we can appeal in US society). The clause says, simply, congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, OR THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. It seems to me
if one says "we shouldn't allow it to be built there because of the sensitivity, etc.", we are placing limits on that free exercise. (You can worship here, but not here, etc.) Indeed, the "liberal" positions is often the one that legislates according to feelings rather than Constitutional principles--so in this sense, the opposition is rather "liberal" (even though most everyone who has these feelings otherwise thinks of themselves as "conservative"--labels are the strangest things, aren't they? LOL)

But in any case, what our posiiton comes down to is this: if we take our Constitution seriously, then we believe that allowing beliefs which makes us uncomfortable is less oppressive than having the government, or the vote of the people, decide which religions should be tolerated, and how.
Obviously, BEHAVIOR can be censored--if someone's religion requires throwing virgins into volcanoes or having child sacrifices, we don't have to allow that, because we see religious liberty as a good of life, and not superior to this good. But, even views which can be interpreted as advocating the undermining of our freedoms should be tolerated until folks actually commit these actions. Otherwise, in censoring such things, we interfere with the very freedom we are supposedly trying to protect by censoring such things. Like it or not, that is the implication of the First Amendment.


This was the whole point of this thread. I was saying it is not Constitutional to prevent this place from being built.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:49 pm

Can anyone give me the proof of what they were talking about? There are alot of people on here who said they have knowledge of the "death cult" stuff and I would love to know about it if it is actually there.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:29 am

So...

I'm gonna ask just once more for some evidence of all of this "death cult" talk and everything about Islam.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:24 am

Just read the history of Islam. What more evidence do you need?

The Prophet Mohammed.. his Mohammedans during two different crusades started by them.. etc and so forth down through history.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:30 am

I mean in the Koran and whatnot. Since people keep saying that it's all about killing and death, I want to know where in the Koran that stuff is.

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St. Sliver

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:55 pm

You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:41 pm

St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.


Win.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:53 pm

St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.

We are talkinga bout Christianity vs Islam. Not ancient Judaism.

And yes, Christianity has been used as excuse for wars. ( the Hundred year war comes to mind ). But that was not started by the Founder of Christianity.

Christ did not take a 6 yr old girl as a wife and then start a holy war against the unbelievers. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, did.

Nor did any of the Apostles marry a 6 yr old and start religious holocausts either.

It is your point that is moot.
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JeffdlS

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:24 pm

Ash wins . . . FATALITY!!!

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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:34 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.

We are talkinga bout Christianity vs Islam. Not ancient Judaism.

And yes, Christianity has been used as excuse for wars. ( the Hundred year war comes to mind ). But that was not started by the Founder of Christianity.

Christ did not take a 6 yr old girl as a wife and then start a holy war against the unbelievers. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, did.

Nor did any of the Apostles marry a 6 yr old and start religious holocausts either.

It is your point that is moot.

Exactly.

Might I add that Islam is not only a religion, but a political and military and institution as well. This evidenced by Hadiths which details Muhammad's life, which included many instances where he would conquest entire cities for not believing in his faith.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:09 pm

olias wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.

We are talkinga bout Christianity vs Islam. Not ancient Judaism.

And yes, Christianity has been used as excuse for wars. ( the Hundred year war comes to mind ). But that was not started by the Founder of Christianity.

Christ did not take a 6 yr old girl as a wife and then start a holy war against the unbelievers. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, did.

Nor did any of the Apostles marry a 6 yr old and start religious holocausts either.

It is your point that is moot.

Exactly.

Might I add that Islam is not only a religion, but a political and military and institution as well. This evidenced by Hadiths which details Muhammad's life, which included many instances where he would conquest entire cities for not believing in his faith.


Still looking for proof and evidence from the Koran about the death cult stuff.
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eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:49 pm

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
olias wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.

We are talkinga bout Christianity vs Islam. Not ancient Judaism.

And yes, Christianity has been used as excuse for wars. ( the Hundred year war comes to mind ). But that was not started by the Founder of Christianity.

Christ did not take a 6 yr old girl as a wife and then start a holy war against the unbelievers. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, did.

Nor did any of the Apostles marry a 6 yr old and start religious holocausts either.

It is your point that is moot.

Exactly.

Might I add that Islam is not only a religion, but a political and military and institution as well. This evidenced by Hadiths which details Muhammad's life, which included many instances where he would conquest entire cities for not believing in his faith.


Still looking for proof and evidence from the Koran about the death cult stuff.

Un. Freaking. Believable.

You were given testimony from an ex-Muslim, and were provided examples of former Muslims who could not go back to their homeland because of their abandoning Islam. And have you actually done the research yourself? As in not only looking in the Koran, but also gathering testimonies from ex-Muslims about this? I mean, pretty much every Muslim who came here from the Middle East and abandoned Islam state themselves that killing 'infidels' is encouraged and commanded within this religion, including a personal friend of mine that moved to my area from Pakistan. They have been doing this since Muhammad came up with Islam, and for anyone to all of the sudden decide to cut them slack, after centuries of nonstop, senseless killing and near-genocide, is just absolutely appalling.

Why do you think there is so much Muslim-on-Muslim killing in the Middle East? It's because a lot of people there get caught doing things that are against Islam, and are usually punished or killed in a very severe, non-human way, because Islamic Sharia law commands them to. Women are buried in dirt up to their necks, and are dealt punishments ranging from a several hour long stoning, to having sulfuric acid thrown on their faces, disfiguring them totally and permanently beyond belief, just because they did something harmless like show their faces or ankles in public.

Even here in the USA, there are cases of young Muslims who abandon Islam and are absolutely horrified at the idea of returning home to their families because they are commanded to commit 'honor killings' to any family member who apostasizes from Islam, and in the Middle East, these 'honor killings' usually consist of beheading their own loved ones in their own homes in front of the rest of the family by the father.

It is unbelievable to me that anyone would wish to cut this anti-human, anti-freedom religion any slack. And it is more unbelievable to me that people are fighting for their right to build a Mosque that is MERE BLOCKS away from the site of the biggest terrorist attack on American soil. This is no different than allowing a National Socialist group to build a meeting place next to an American WW2 memorial or a Holocaust museum. Anyone who thinks that these people should have the right to build a Mosque virtually next to the site of a terrorist attack perpetrated BY Muslims has neither a brain nor a conscience. This is a massive display of utter disregard and disrespect for the families of everyone who died at Ground Zero.

It angers me that more people my age are tolerating this dangerous system, to the point of completely brown-nosing it. If any generation in the history of humankind has ever had mass amounts of failure embedded into it, it would be this one.
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Shamax

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:55 pm

eternalmystery wrote:
This is no different than allowing a National Socialist group to build a meeting place next to an American WW2 memorial or a Holocaust museum. Anyone who thinks that these people should have the right to build a Mosque virtually next to the site of a terrorist attack perpetrated BY Muslims has neither a brain nor a conscience.

A fairer and more accurate analogy would be "the equivalent of building a YWCA about a half a mile away from a bombed abortion clinic."

I'm not indicting you here, Broc (please don't read this that way), but I'm disgusted with the media and political pundits who so often complain about facts being blurred and spun and hyped, are fudging and mythologizing the facts of this Islamic community center (hence the YWCA comparison) that's being built two NYC blocks (half a mile) away from the WTC site. Call me naïve if you want, but I'm seeking consistency here. I'm picturing the reactions of the same people if folks were protesting the building of a church two blocks from a planned parenthood clinic or the site of some notorious KKK lynching or something.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:20 pm

Shamax wrote:
eternalmystery wrote:
This is no different than allowing a National Socialist group to build a meeting place next to an American WW2 memorial or a Holocaust museum. Anyone who thinks that these people should have the right to build a Mosque virtually next to the site of a terrorist attack perpetrated BY Muslims has neither a brain nor a conscience.

A fairer and more accurate analogy would be "the equivalent of building a YWCA about a half a mile away from a bombed abortion clinic."

I'm not indicting you here, Broc (please don't read this that way), but I'm disgusted with the media and political pundits who so often complain about facts being blurred and spun and hyped, are fudging and mythologizing the facts of this Islamic community center (hence the YWCA comparison) that's being built two NYC blocks (half a mile) away from the WTC site. Call me naïve if you want, but I'm seeking consistency here. I'm picturing the reactions of the same people if folks were protesting the building of a church two blocks from a planned parenthood clinic or the site of some notorious KKK lynching or something.


I'm glad to see that there's someone else who gets the point of this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:22 pm

eternalmystery wrote:
Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
olias wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
St. Sliver wrote:
You can't say that the Koran promotes hate because two crusades that were carried out in the name of mohammed. There wars in the bible that were carried out over something God said. So I think that point is kinda moot.

We are talkinga bout Christianity vs Islam. Not ancient Judaism.

And yes, Christianity has been used as excuse for wars. ( the Hundred year war comes to mind ). But that was not started by the Founder of Christianity.

Christ did not take a 6 yr old girl as a wife and then start a holy war against the unbelievers. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, did.

Nor did any of the Apostles marry a 6 yr old and start religious holocausts either.

It is your point that is moot.

Exactly.

Might I add that Islam is not only a religion, but a political and military and institution as well. This evidenced by Hadiths which details Muhammad's life, which included many instances where he would conquest entire cities for not believing in his faith.


Still looking for proof and evidence from the Koran about the death cult stuff.

Un. Freaking. Believable.

You were given testimony from an ex-Muslim, and were provided examples of former Muslims who could not go back to their homeland because of their abandoning Islam. And have you actually done the research yourself? As in not only looking in the Koran, but also gathering testimonies from ex-Muslims about this? I mean, pretty much every Muslim who came here from the Middle East and abandoned Islam state themselves that killing 'infidels' is encouraged and commanded within this religion, including a personal friend of mine that moved to my area from Pakistan. They have been doing this since Muhammad came up with Islam, and for anyone to all of the sudden decide to cut them slack, after centuries of nonstop, senseless killing and near-genocide, is just absolutely appalling.

Why do you think there is so much Muslim-on-Muslim killing in the Middle East? It's because a lot of people there get caught doing things that are against Islam, and are usually punished or killed in a very severe, non-human way, because Islamic Sharia law commands them to. Women are buried in dirt up to their necks, and are dealt punishments ranging from a several hour long stoning, to having sulfuric acid thrown on their faces, disfiguring them totally and permanently beyond belief, just because they did something harmless like show their faces or ankles in public.

Even here in the USA, there are cases of young Muslims who abandon Islam and are absolutely horrified at the idea of returning home to their families because they are commanded to commit 'honor killings' to any family member who apostasizes from Islam, and in the Middle East, these 'honor killings' usually consist of beheading their own loved ones in their own homes in front of the rest of the family by the father.

It is unbelievable to me that anyone would wish to cut this anti-human, anti-freedom religion any slack. And it is more unbelievable to me that people are fighting for their right to build a Mosque that is MERE BLOCKS away from the site of the biggest terrorist attack on American soil. This is no different than allowing a National Socialist group to build a meeting place next to an American WW2 memorial or a Holocaust museum. Anyone who thinks that these people should have the right to build a Mosque virtually next to the site of a terrorist attack perpetrated BY Muslims has neither a brain nor a conscience. This is a massive display of utter disregard and disrespect for the families of everyone who died at Ground Zero.

It angers me that more people my age are tolerating this dangerous system, to the point of completely brown-nosing it. If any generation in the history of humankind has ever had mass amounts of failure embedded into it, it would be this one.


I'm not trying to cut anyone any slack. I'm trying to point out that to preserve the foundation of our nation, it is not Constitutional to deny the building.

But I guess that's my non-brain talking...

And I don't support Islam in any way. Never have, never will. Nor have I ever said that I do, nor have I ever said that I brown-nose it or any other such nonsense.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:28 am

I would agree with you, Gorlim, if this were not a matter concerning the NYC municipal government. They have more power to withhold building permits for whatever reasons they see fit.

I wouldn't have a problem with the Islamic center being built if radical jihadist-friendly groups weren't behind it.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:18 am

Theonymic wrote:
I would agree with you, Gorlim, if this were not a matter concerning the NYC municipal government. They have more power to withhold building permits for whatever reasons they see fit.

I wouldn't have a problem with the Islamic center being built if radical jihadist-friendly groups weren't behind it.


Well of course, that doesn't sit well. My simple point is that, whether anyone likes it or not, it is the way of our country to have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Any particular discrimination would be against that.

I do not support Islam. I am a follower of Christ, obviously. I just feel that we cannot in good conscience deny any religious group the right to worship as they please. Regardless of what religion it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:39 am

There is not right "To worship as you please".

You can worship within the law,, that is it.

You can't worship with human or animal sacrifice.. or orgy with kids involved.. or with intent to go out and commit jihad... or many any other ways..

But I get your point.. it's just a rather over-used point I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:13 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
There is not right "To worship as you please".

You can worship within the law,, that is it.

You can't worship with human or animal sacrifice.. or orgy with kids involved.. or with intent to go out and commit jihad... or many any other ways..

But I get your point.. it's just a rather over-used point I think.

I didn't really mean "as you please", I just meant that you can worship the god/deity of your choice. And I agree that it should be within the law. But I don't think this community center is being built with any intention of sacrifice or orgies haha.

I think it's an attempt to reach out and connect people of different faiths. Obviously I have no idea for sure, but I don't think anything too crazy is going on here. It's not even a full-blown mosque.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:16 am

Do you think it should be investigated too make sure no recruiting or promotion of Jihad is going on?

i know we are repulsed at the idea of government investigating anything classed as a religion, but what do you think about that, in this case?
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:07 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Do you think it should be investigated too make sure no recruiting or promotion of Jihad is going on?

i know we are repulsed at the idea of government investigating anything classed as a religion, but what do you think about that, in this case?


Hmmm... That's an iffy subject...

It seems that it would be difficult to investigate without stepping over some boundaries, ya know? Although it would be great to make sure that no type of Jihad-related things were happening there.

But at the same time, like you said, I don't like the idea of government investigating into anyone's religious gatherings. Unless there is probable cause.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:51 pm

Well.. I think it's safe to say Big Brother has already investigated it.. whether it was made public or not.

They investigate Christian church's as well and not just with the IRS.
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PostSubject: Re: Islam   Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:22 pm

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Well.. I think it's safe to say Big Brother has already investigated it.. whether it was made public or not.

They investigate Christian church's as well and not just with the IRS.


Well yeah, I'm sure that has been plenty of secret investigation happening. But we would never know...

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Islam

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