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Death over Life

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PostSubject: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:59 am

Since this subject is tensing up in another thread, I'd love to see the proof of the Papacy within the Church. The only Scriptures I've ever seen been used is the Matthew Scriptures. If needs be, I can discuss in great details about the Scripture and how it doesn't support the Roman Papacy, but I'd like to know of some more proof and discuss the role of Pope in the Church.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:13 am

You really can't discuss the proof if there is none

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:31 am

^Oh Snap.
Burnage.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:34 am

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
You really can't discuss the proof if there is none

I know. A couple posters told me that they have plenty sources that prove the Papacy in Church and how this is a valid part of Church that came straight from God. One has said, if I ask, I will show you, and I am here asking.

As I've said before, the only proof used on me for the Papacy ever is:

Matthew 16: 13-20

13 And when Jesus had come into the regions of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying: Who do men say that the Son of man is?

14 They said: Some, John the Baptist, but others, Elijah, and yet others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

15 He says to them: But who say you that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answering said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

18 And I also say to thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in the heavens; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in the heavens.

20 Then he charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Yet, this has always been taken out of context to say Peter was a Pope and Peter was the 1st Pope of the Papacy. So, other than this, I haven't seen any. I'm hoping some one can enlighten me.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:00 pm

Death over Life wrote:
MetLHed4GZus wrote:
You really can't discuss the proof if there is none

I know. A couple posters told me that they have plenty sources that prove the Papacy in Church and how this is a valid part of Church that came straight from God. One has said, if I ask, I will show you, and I am here asking.

As I've said before, the only proof used on me for the Papacy ever is:

Matthew 16: 13-20

13 And when Jesus had come into the regions of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying: Who do men say that the Son of man is?

14 They said: Some, John the Baptist, but others, Elijah, and yet others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

15 He says to them: But who say you that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answering said: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

18 And I also say to thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in the heavens; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in the heavens.

20 Then he charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Yet, this has always been taken out of context to say Peter was a Pope and Peter was the 1st Pope of the Papacy. So, other than this, I haven't seen any. I'm hoping some one can enlighten me.
yeah wow...that is definitely out of context

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:06 pm

Be careful.

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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:08 pm

I think if we are looking at biblical context.. the Roman Papacy would be the equivalent of the Jewish Pharisee's.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:13 pm

Guys make sure this thread doesn't become a flame war

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:17 pm

There is as much evidence for the role of the Papacy as there is of the role of the pastor in the Protestant faith.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:35 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Guys make sure this thread doesn't become a flame war

Yes. I agree. I’m really serious on this issue, as I’d like to learn more of it. Better if I make a thread than to get another thread locked up.

Just we’ll need to be very civil and since this is a very touchy and important subject, we’ll need the Mods to keep a close eye on this.

trephining wrote:
There is as much evidence for the role of the Papacy as there is of the role of the pastor in the Protestant faith.

That is what I’m getting down to, but I’m looking at the origins here of where it started. I know we have the current Pope Benedict. Hey, our calendars only exist because of Pope Gregory. Just like you go to any Protestant church, you are going to have a Pastor.

With that being said though, if the quote is indeed True, then does this mean that Both have such a rich history and proof that it is correct in Scriptures? Does it mean that both are man-made Traditions rather than of God? Who knows, that’s why I made this thread.

The one thing that I will say which sort of debunks the Pastors somewhat is this:

Protestantism = Catholicism. The Protestant Church is nothing more than a Product of Catholicism. If you are a Protestant, then you are a Catholic. Protestant means Protesting Catholic. In addition to that, I’ve never really seen Scriptural proof that a Pastor is a Head of a Church either, now that Pastor vs. Pope has been brought up.

So, Pastor or Pope could be right, but both aren’t Biblical together. It’s one or the other or neither, and I’d like to get down to it.

Last, since Protestant keeps on getting put into the pot when I’m speaking of Catholicism, I shall point out I am not a Catholic or a Protestant at all. Why I wish to discuss is because I’d like the discussion of the differing views. This place is known for having civil discussions although straying off course at times.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:42 pm

I'm not big on pastors or papacy.

To quote someone who I forgot said this " Jesus is my pastor ".

Why have a mortal man to guide you.. when you can follow the immortal man himself? Jesus.

And yes.. Catholics.. you can directly by guided by Jesus. You don't need a mortal middle man.. a Priest or Confessor.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:48 pm

Death over Life wrote:




Protestantism = Catholicism. The Protestant Church is nothing more than a Product of Catholicism. If you are a Protestant, then you are a Catholic. Protestant means Protesting Catholic. In addition to that, I’ve never really seen Scriptural proof that a Pastor is a Head of a Church either, now that Pastor vs. Pope has been brought up.
Well I don't know. That's kind of a stretch. You see people protesting animal cruelty alot, that doesn't make them someone who abuses animals. I don't think protesting something means you are part of what you are protesting.

Now true the word pastor never is used in the bible, the principles of a pastor are very much found throughout the book of Acts and Corinthians.

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/schooley-pastor.shtml

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:51 pm

Kamerad Ash wrote:
I'm not big on pastors or papacy.

To quote someone who I forgot said this " Jesus is my pastor ".

Why have a mortal man to guide you.. when you can follow the immortal man himself? Jesus.

And yes.. Catholics.. you can directly by guided by Jesus. You don't need a mortal middle man.. a Priest or Confessor.

A pastor is appointed by God, all true spiritual leaders are. God wants us to view a spiritual leaders with much respect.

May I recommend the book Undercover by John Bevere to everyone in here? It talks about spiritual leadership in the book, no it does not deal with the pope vs. pastor debate, but it is still a good read. It opened my eye to alot of things.

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:47 pm

I never heard of someone who wants no authority over his head
Even Mom and Dad. No Teacher, no Boss or Manager, no Pope
to light the way as a Wise Elder. Grandma and Grandpa would
turn over in their graves. So it's as you say, "Me and Jesus"
without Religious Leaders and Teachers, Nuns, Monks, Priests.
Brothers and Sisters fight some times. Are you leaving the
God given authority of your Family? Would you say:
Jesus is the Master, and I'm his slave. Are you a self proclaimed
Hermit? It's ok if you are. Others have done it before.
The Catholic Church has Active and Contemplative members.
God Alone or I and my Brothers God has given me.
God Bless!

P.S. Many Men of Authority are all over the Holy Bible.
Whatsoever you do to the least of my Brothers, that
you do onto Me.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:32 pm

Quote :
A pastor is appointed by God, all true spiritual
leaders are.

Says you or God?

The only pastors I have ever known ar appointed by either themselves or other humans.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:18 pm

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Quote :
A pastor is appointed by God, all true spiritual
leaders are.

Says you or God?

The only pastors I have ever known ar appointed by either themselves or other humans.
definitely the bible, which is definitely God

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olias

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:39 pm

The Bible isn't God. It's his word.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:49 pm

olias wrote:
The Bible isn't God. It's his word.
well yeah, that's what I meant

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:55 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
olias wrote:
The Bible isn't God. It's his word.
well yeah, that's what I meant

Carry on mate. Smile
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:42 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Death over Life wrote:




Protestantism = Catholicism. The Protestant Church is nothing more than a Product of Catholicism. If you are a Protestant, then you are a Catholic. Protestant means Protesting Catholic. In addition to that, I’ve never really seen scriptural proof that a Pastor is a Head of a Church either, now that Pastor vs. Pope has been brought up.


Well I don't know. That's kind of a stretch. You see people protesting animal cruelty alot, that doesn't make them someone who abuses animals. I don't think protesting something means you are part of what you are protesting.

Now true the word pastor never is used in the bible, the principles of a pastor are very much found throughout the book of Acts and Corinthians.

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/schooley-pastor.shtml

To begin, that is extremely horrible analogy. We are talking of the Catholic and Protestant Churches and their views, not people who harm animals vs. people who love animals. If Protestants are truly protesting Catholics, then why do you both basically agree on many of the same theological standpoints? There is nothing similar between an animal lover and an animal abuser, while there are just to many things similar between Catholics and Protestants.

From the link you provided and what the scriptures say, I think you have misinterpreted what pastor means when the Bible says pastor. It’s very similar like when the word priest comes up in the Bible, some just assume like a Catholic Priest is what is meant by Priest. Same thing here. When Pastor is brought up, it isn’t meaning Protestant Pastor. When it says Pastor, it is actually meaning Elders. In the Original form of Church in the old days, there was never ever 1 pastor that lead the congregation. No, it was always many Elders and in addition to that, there was no leading the Congregation. All of the Congregation played a part.

As it showed, pastor usually means evangelization and preaching. That’s not what Pastor was referring to in scriptures. Yes, there are many similarities between pastor and elder, but there was never 1 pastor for a church, it was always many and the activity of church and the roles were far different back then, then what it is now.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
I'm not big on pastors or papacy.

To quote someone who I forgot said this " Jesus is my pastor ".

Why have a mortal man to guide you.. when you can follow the immortal man himself? Jesus.

And yes.. Catholics.. you can directly by guided by Jesus. You don't need a mortal middle man.. a Priest or Confessor.

A pastor is appointed by God, all true spiritual leaders are. God wants us to view a spiritual leaders with much respect.

May I recommend the book Undercover by John Bevere to everyone in here? It talks about spiritual leadership in the book, no it does not deal with the pope vs. pastor debate, but it is still a good read. It opened my eye to alot of things.

That may be a True statement, but what exactly are the methods of proof that these people with some having not-all-there theology are really anointed by God to go and preach to the congregation? Unless there is a pure Biblical way to prove that these people were anointed by God and not fellow men, then this is just a blanket statement.

For all this says, Fred Phelps was anointed by God.

Why we take the 12 Apostles (technically 13), Moses, Paul, and the Hall of Fame in Hebrews as Truly Spiritually Anointed by God is because Christ Himself or the Father Himself hand chosen these people to do the Will of God. We don’t have God or Christ doing that anymore. We have only what is written to go by, but unlike Christ, we don’t know the heart, mind, and soul of every individual, so relying on leaders today is pretty much pointless, dangerous, and as Ash said, putting faith in a mortal when you should be going to the Immortal One. How do you know that the Pastor or Priest isn’t doing illegal activity or just doing it for money or whatever? Just when you truly think you know a leader, more about them is revealed that you wish you never knew of them. How do you Truly know if what your’ leader is telling you really is the Truth?

The Truth is, you can’t unless you have your’ Bible with you and you read it for yourself. Because of this, the Bible really is the only True source of Truth. Because of this, it just goes back to what I have said up above. I’ve been taught lies despite the fact that the Bible could or could not support it. All lies and heresy can have origins traced back to the Bible with the correct indoctrinations from the leaders, so this is why “personal relationship” is heavily stressed. This is why in today’s world instead of the Ancient Church, the scriptures are the only valid source of information for what Christ did during His’ time as Christ and His’ disciples were back then.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:14 am

Death over Life wrote:
For all this says, Fred Phelps was anointed by God.


Win.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:45 pm

Death over Life wrote:
Since this subject is tensing up in another thread, I'd love to see the proof of the Papacy within the Church. The only Scriptures I've ever seen been used is the Matthew Scriptures. If needs be, I can discuss in great details about the Scripture and how it doesn't support the Roman Papacy, but I'd like to know of some more proof and discuss the role of Pope in the Church.

It's like saying I don't believe in the history
of the Presidents of the United States.
There have been mant Presidents and Many
Popes. The first for everything, Peter was
the first Pope. As well as many historic Popes.
Many of them were Saints. As Many believe
Pope John Paul the Great was a Saint.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:11 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
I'm not big on pastors or papacy.

To quote someone who I forgot said this " Jesus is my pastor ".

Why have a mortal man to guide you.. when you can follow the immortal man himself? Jesus.

And yes.. Catholics.. you can directly by guided by Jesus. You don't need a mortal middle man.. a Priest or Confessor.

A pastor is appointed by God, all true spiritual leaders are. God wants us to view a spiritual leaders with much respect.

May I recommend the book Undercover by John Bevere to everyone in here? It talks about spiritual leadership in the book, no it does not deal with the pope vs. pastor debate, but it is still a good read. It opened my eye to alot of things.

Jesus is within, as the Body of Christ in Holy Communon.
The last Supper and the first Elder Spiritual Leaders, were
the 12 Apostles. The early Church needed the Apostles
like we needed Pastors and Priests throughout history.
The Christian Family is there for the newly Baptized Baby.
Countless people have "guided me" throughout my life.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:42 pm

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
For all this says, Fred Phelps was anointed by God.


Win.

If you Quote the Bible as the only source of Truth
how do you know that you are reading the right
Bible? The one that was gifted to you by a man
on God's behalf. The United States Christian culture
gave that Bible to you. Maybe Grandpa.
My Bible is called The New American Bible for Catholics.
Catholics don't read the King James Bible.

So all of the Priests I have known are Ordained by Bishops
who are direct descendants of the 12 Apostles.
The Blessings remain in Truth. We all want to learn the
Truth. A Truth that if studied in Faith will reveal itself
like the Teachings of Christ, that are for all people in
all times. We have all been called to be great Saints.
Even if we teach one another in this forum.
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PostSubject: Re: The Roman Papacy   Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:49 pm

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
For all this says, Fred Phelps was anointed by God.


Win.
We need more Holy Men and Women to step up as leaders.
Even if it's a Baseball Coach who is a Christian.
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