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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:33 am

So my mom brought this up tonight. I know my own views and what I think about it, but I was just curious to see what others say...

What happens to the soul directly after death? Does is lay in wait, "soul sleep" as some call it? Does it lay dormant until judgement day?

Or does it go directly to Heaven or Hell?

Just curious to see your thoughts Very Happy
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:59 am

It is my belief that it is dormant until judgement. The "soul sleep" you mentioned that is.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:15 am

Dormant.. but that dormant could seem like a second for all we know.. since we would no longer be subject to the dimensions of time as we here.


I believe heaven will be like waking up for the first time from sleep.

You will realize that all the other times you had awoken form sleep you had actually only awoken from a deeper dream into a lesser dream.

Breath in the lungs for the first time.. cold grass under the feet for the first time. Blue sky for the first times.. The other blue skies just a dark illusion in a dream of what this blue sky will be.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:30 am

I see what you mean, Kamerad, about it possibly seeming like a second. If "soul sleep" is the truth.

Do either of you have any type of Biblical evidence of the soul lying dormant? Again, I'm just curious.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:17 am

I died for a short time in the hospital once.. and all I experienced was nothing..void, blackness.. No thought's at all. So that's my only point of reference really.
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Unintentional Theologian

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:58 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Dormant.. but that dormant could seem like a second for all we know.. since we would no longer be subject to the dimensions of time as we here.

I think we'll still be subject to time even after we die. The reason why I think so is based on Revelation 6:9-11:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The fact that the souls are asking God "how long" it will take to judge, and being told to "rest a little longer" shows that time is still very much in effect.

I think we as finite human beings will always be subject to time. Only an infinite Being like God can operate outside of time.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:49 am

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Luke 23:42-43


If that isn't proof that you go to Heaven right after you die, I don't know what is.

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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:54 am

Unintentional Theologian wrote:
Kamerad Ash wrote:
Dormant.. but that dormant could seem like a second for all we know.. since we would no longer be subject to the dimensions of time as we here.

I think we'll still be subject to time even after we die. The reason why I think so is based on Revelation 6:9-11:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The fact that the souls are asking God "how long" it will take to judge, and being told to "rest a little longer" shows that time is still very much in effect.

I think we as finite human beings will always be subject to time. Only an infinite Being like God can operate outside of time.
I don't beleive that verse is referencing Heaven

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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:09 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Luke 23:42-43


If that isn't proof that you go to Heaven right after you die, I don't know what is.


I forgot all about that verse. Thank you for that. This is an interesting topic to me.

And I do see what you mean, Unintentional Theologian. But if we are dead, would we be considered finite beings at that point?
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:53 pm

I'm liking this thread and subject, but atm lack expertise in this area. Although I'm not completely sure, I'm still going with Ash's and Vaterflaumig's view here.

To Metl: That is a great and valid verse, but it may not be intelligent to gain an entire belief off of that one verse. Why I say this is because, from what I've read and seen, where Ash, Vater, and I get the belief from is due to some of the aforementioned verses, in addition to the Final Judgment after Christ return's. I'll have to do my research, but it did say that all the souls will come back to life for this judgement. It doesn't specifically say, but it does imply a soul sleep.

Then again, you also have the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Also, I do think this is also fuising in with the soul being inherently eternal or finite where the views may come from.

On that verse though, it does say today, but not this second, so there could still be a small amount of soul-sleeping while still being with Christ in paradise on that day.

Overall, it seems the Bible supports and rejects both views, but it's something I'm going to need to look into more.
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againsttheantichrist



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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:57 pm

Don't establish a theological standpoint based on one verse. If that one verse ends up being wrong, you are standing on nothing but air.

We have the entire bible, which is the full counsel of God. Study it and find other support from its passages.
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BryneVampyr

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:25 pm

I believe that our soul goes straight to heaven.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:30 pm

BryneVampyr wrote:
I believe that our soul goes straight to heaven.
yes, alot of the verses hinting at a dormancy are not talking about our actual souls, but an earthly body

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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:14 pm

I found this website and thought I'd share it...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/death/go.html


Any thoughts?
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:17 pm

Also of note.. Hell is part of the world we are in now. That valley of the Shadow of Death as king David put it. OR to be more Dante.. you could say the first or two levels of hell reach into this mortal realm of the curse that we abide in.

So.. it is imprtant to clarify what "exactly" we are talking about in the Bible.. there is Sheol ( hell ).. there is outer darkness.. there is The Lake of Fire ( eternal Damnation and Destruction ).. there is the great divide.

One has to examine beyond whatever translated English word might have been used in a particular verse.. and then even in the original languages.. the places being described are not so easily fit into a box.

Remember.. all throughout the Old testament we see characters of note referring to being in hell while still being alive in their mortal bodies in this world. I this context, hell is something we can al lbne saved from... it is the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness.. and Pit .. from which there is no return.

Again.. with homage to Dante " Abandon Hope, all ye who enter here ".
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:09 pm

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
I found this website and thought I'd share it...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/death/go.html


Any thoughts?
wow cool find

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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:50 pm

Here's another site to consider. I would love to know some thoughts...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/hell/purgatory.html
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Hguols

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:01 am

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
Here's another site to consider. I would love to know some thoughts...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/hell/purgatory.html

From your original previous post, I actually found and read this already.

a. Man is made up of three parts: Spirit, Soul and Body

b. There is a difference between man's breath and spirit:

c. Destination of the righteous after death

d. The soul is conscious after death

e. Additional scriptures concerning the consciousness of the soul after death

f. Man's soul and spirit are more than breath

g. Man's spirit is what is born again

h. God works through man's spirit

i. Man's Spirit has:

i. intelligence

ii. emotions

j. The soul and the spirit are separated from the body at death

k. The word "death" which is "thanatas" in Greek, does not mean to be non-existent or unconscious, it rather means to be separated.

l. Jesus will bring with him those who died at His second coming


That little outline (and the scripture between each point, which I didn't post) I found to be very interesting.

I agree with it.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:39 am

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
I found this website and thought I'd share it...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/death/go.html


Any thoughts?

Alright, I have read this, and with all due respect, it just seems that all it is, is an already pre-conceived agenda twisting Scriptures in the process to support said view. Notice all of His’ extra words he used all over the place like:

Quote :

How can death be a gain if we lay there unconscious for thousands of years? I AM SO GLAD Paul explained this under the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, by showing us clearly that when you die, you are with Christ. Hallelujah!

I’m sorry, but the way this guy wrote it really makes the feeling of man creating God rather than God creating man here. This is just my initial thoughts on that. I’ll go back later on and examine the Scriptures that He used and I’ll see their context.


Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
Here's another site to consider. I would love to know some thoughts...


http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/hell/purgatory.html

I agree with this on the purgatory, there is no purgatory, but this one still doesn’t convince me at all that there is no soul sleep, or maybe it’s the afterlife that is being preached I disagree with.

I’ll have to go through the afterlives again, to show why I’m still unsure, and especially of why I disagree with so much mainstream beliefs.

We have many afterlives, not just 2. We have Heaven. In addition to that, I recall we had/have (please correct me if I’m incorrect here) Abraham’s Bosom. This was supposed to be an afterlife the saved souls went to for waiting until Christ died and resurrected.

For the afterlife of EVERYBODY, we have the grave called Sheol, called Hell. This is why there is no such thing as Heaven or Hell, EVERYBODY goes to Hell! Hell’s the grave, not the other afterlife I will describe later.

We also have Hades, yet the way Hades is described, it also up above, the grave. So EVERYBODY is going to Hades.

This next one ironically isn’t even an afterlife. This is a place outside of Israel or somewhere in Israel (forgive my lack of geography here) where it’s attributes that were simply a description all of a sudden transformed into an afterlife. This area is called Gehenna. This place, was known for always burning with fire. It was like a dumpster or something always on fire where people dumped stuff from garbage to people’s corpses after they died. Because Gehenna sounds very similar to mainstream traditional beliefs, it is simply the Hell afterlife although it is not.

We have yet another different one. Many times I’ve heard/seen that we will be with the demons in Hell. That is false. Humans have their own area and the Demons have theirs, with no co-mingling at all. It is very brief, yet it’s mark in Scriptures are huge, (had it not been re-translated as Hell). This area is Tartarus, that is also called the Abyss, or Pit. All Demons/Fallen Angels will reside in Tartarus after all of this is done after Jesus returns.

Last, but not least, we have the Lake of Fire. The ending of the afterlives without Christ. This is the popular Hell that has been twisted heavily out of context. The Lake of Fire is reserved for the end somewhat like Tartarus for the Angels. Notice how in Revelation it says Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire, this is the 2nd Death? So, because Hell means the grave, that means that nobody can be in a Lake of Fire until the last judgement then go back in. That means that the unsaved are waiting in the grave, lest there are EVEN MORE afterlives than the Bible describes.

You can’t properly say that waiting isn’t a gain, since the souls of before Christ had to wait for Him to die/resurrect as well. So, who’s to say that Tradition must be right? For all we know, they and our recent loved ones are all waiting in Hell, because where everything really is going to be fixed up is at the final Judgement, which hasn’t happened yet. Soul sleep has happened in the Bible, lest the Scriptures are contradictorily. So what makes it unbiblical all of a sudden?

Once again Ash is correct on the translations. For you to Truly know the answer that lies in Scripture, you have to go beyond the English language and English Translations. For the True answers, it lies in Hebrew and Greek. The cop-out was translating anything bad as Hell and letting that fusion be the 1 final afterlife for the Unsaved, which isn’t True.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:36 pm

Purgatory makes more sense than just going straight to heaven or hell.

P.S.
Gormlin, that post on Purgatory. I just did a quick scan of that page and whoever the authors are have no idea what they are talking about. Because just about every detail about it is wrong. I don't mind if you disagree with the notion of Purgatory, but at least have the facts. I'll post a rebuttal later on

DOL

Wait for my answer to that page before discussing purgatory. K?
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:12 pm

olias wrote:
Purgatory makes more sense than just going straight to heaven or hell.

P.S.
Gormlin, that post on Purgatory. I just did a quick scan of that page and whoever the authors are have no idea what they are talking about. Because just about every detail about it is wrong. I don't mind if you disagree with the notion of Purgatory, but at least have the facts. I'll post a rebuttal later on

DOL

Wait for my answer to that page before discussing purgatory. K?

K. Although I disagree with the view and would love to discuss, I at least want to clarify I did not get the view from that page at all. I also agree that the authors of the 2 pages were just twisting and manipulating Scriptures to suit their pre-conceived agendas.
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Gorlim (OMW)

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:47 pm

olias wrote:
Purgatory makes more sense than just going straight to heaven or hell.

P.S.
Gormlin, that post on Purgatory. I just did a quick scan of that page and whoever the authors are have no idea what they are talking about. Because just about every detail about it is wrong. I don't mind if you disagree with the notion of Purgatory, but at least have the facts. I'll post a rebuttal later on

DOL

Wait for my answer to that page before discussing purgatory. K?


I haven't stated my standpoint one way or another yet. I was just posting something I had found for everyone's consideration.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: After Death...   Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:58 am

Gorlim (OMW) wrote:
olias wrote:
Purgatory makes more sense than just going straight to heaven or hell.

P.S.
Gormlin, that post on Purgatory. I just did a quick scan of that page and whoever the authors are have no idea what they are talking about. Because just about every detail about it is wrong. I don't mind if you disagree with the notion of Purgatory, but at least have the facts. I'll post a rebuttal later on

DOL

Wait for my answer to that page before discussing purgatory. K?


I haven't stated my standpoint one way or another yet. I was just posting something I had found for everyone's consideration.

Gotcha.
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