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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Mon May 31, 2010 3:58 pm

Made at the request of another user, but here we can discuss and debate on what kind of holes and misinformation that is in Scriptures and any books that will help close the holes.
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wizardovmetal

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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:06 am

"As for the "holes", I haven't really stepped across any that didn't deal with the forgeries. Once the forged in Scriptures were removed, everything made perfect sense. That will have to be for a separate thread, but what kind of holes are you speaking of? The only one I can think of (once again forgery claim) at the moment is maybe Judas Iscariot."

would you mind explaining some about this?
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Hguols

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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:15 am

www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass3b.jpg" border="0" alt="" />
II Kings 2:23-24

So..... Thou Shalt not Kill, unless you pray that bears do it for making fun of your bald head?
I don't believe this scripture out of context - it's pretty cut and dry.

I don't entirely believe what www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass4.jpg" class="postlink" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this image states, but its pretty funny nonetheless. (I didn't post the image because it has a wordy dird in it.)
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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:10 pm

Hguols wrote:
www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass3b.jpg" border="0" alt="" />
II Kings 2:23-24

So..... Thou Shalt not Kill, unless you pray that bears do it for making fun of your bald head?
I don't believe this scripture out of context - it's pretty cut and dry.

I don't entirely believe what www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass4.jpg" class="postlink" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this image states, but its pretty funny nonetheless. (I didn't post the image because it has a wordy dird in it.)

In OT times, interfering or mocking a prophet of God is no different than me mocking a lion today. If you plan to do either, you best be ready to die for it.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:38 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
"As for the "holes", I haven't really stepped across any that didn't deal with the forgeries. Once the forged in Scriptures were removed, everything made perfect sense. That will have to be for a separate thread, but what kind of holes are you speaking of? The only one I can think of (once again forgery claim) at the moment is maybe Judas Iscariot."

would you mind explaining some about this?

Which do you want explained?

I shall do one of each (in a nutshell). Once this properly takes off and I get some more Scriptures going, then I'll go into more details.

About the forgery Scriptures, here is one off the top of my head that I remembered. This is a popular Scripture to put some sexism on women being in the church and how they need to keep their mouths shut and let only the men do the talking. This was right before Paul was stating how everybody has a purpose within the gathering and everybody does something, and everybody edifies. Upon researching, the Scriptures that were speaking of Women staying silent and only the men do everything was added into Scriptures later on (probably by a sexist), and once it was gone, there was no sexism in the Bible, since the rest of the Scriptures always had women being active and participating. Shoot, some of our Books were written by Women, so you can tell this portion of Scriptures dealing with Women in a Church is forgery.

As for Judas Iscariot, that I will simply give it off to the wikipedia article because it describes a lot of what goes on with this individual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot
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Shamax

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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:00 pm

Death over Life wrote:
I shall do one of each (in a nutshell). Once this properly takes off and I get some more Scriptures going, then I'll go into more details.

About the forgery Scriptures, here is one off the top of my head that I remembered. This is a popular Scripture to put some sexism on women being in the church and how they need to keep their mouths shut and let only the men do the talking. This was right before Paul was stating how everybody has a purpose within the gathering and everybody does something, and everybody edifies. Upon researching, the Scriptures that were speaking of Women staying silent and only the men do everything was added into Scriptures later on (probably by a sexist), and once it was gone, there was no sexism in the Bible, since the rest of the Scriptures always had women being active and participating. Shoot, some of our Books were written by Women, so you can tell this portion of Scriptures dealing with Women in a Church is forgery.

The passage in question is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and the evidence against it is far from conclusive enough to dismiss it as a "forgery" - quite the contrary, actually. Long story short is that the passage appears in *every* NT manuscript and codex. In most of the earliest texts, it appears right where we find it - immediately following verse 33. In about half of the "western" witnesses (usually less reliable) it appears at the end of chapter 14. The other half of the western witnesses have it right where every other manuscript does - after verse 33.

Daniel Wallace (Executive Director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts) has a good article that addresses the issue here: http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-corinthians-1434-35

As for the statement about female authors of Scripture, I've never heard claim of such unless it's someone assuming that Ruth and Esther were written by the women themselves (tradition has it that they were penned by Samuel and Mordecai respectively as far as I can see at first glance).

While I do agree that there is no "sexism" in the Bible, there *are* and always will be things in it that people can and will construe to be "sexist". This is a bit outside the realm of "plot holes" discussion, but biblically-speaking God created men and women as equals, yet they are created differently and for different roles. I know that modern egalitarianism would say that any difference in role is just inequality by another name, and that's fine if someone wants to say that, but it's not the counsel of Scripture (or even nature). Just a side-note there, as our church is doing a multi-week study of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (at the behest of many of the ladies in our fellowship, actually).

But to the topic of "plot holes" and "forgeries", that's the one thing a person has to be careful of when studying textual variants. There's plenty of individuals and movements that invest their time in exegeting variants - in coming-up with fanciful reasons for particular variants in Scripture (one need look no further than the likes of Bart Ehrman). It's always best, therefore, to look at the actual variant yourself and to look at a few different sources that talk about it. Bible.org is a great resource for this, since there's usually extensive footnotes for the text itself, as well as articles by folks like Daniel Wallace, D.A. Carson, and others.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: Plot Holes within Scriptures   Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:48 pm

Shamax wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
I shall do one of each (in a nutshell). Once this properly takes off and I get some more Scriptures going, then I'll go into more details.

About the forgery Scriptures, here is one off the top of my head that I remembered. This is a popular Scripture to put some sexism on women being in the church and how they need to keep their mouths shut and let only the men do the talking. This was right before Paul was stating how everybody has a purpose within the gathering and everybody does something, and everybody edifies. Upon researching, the Scriptures that were speaking of Women staying silent and only the men do everything was added into Scriptures later on (probably by a sexist), and once it was gone, there was no sexism in the Bible, since the rest of the Scriptures always had women being active and participating. Shoot, some of our Books were written by Women, so you can tell this portion of Scriptures dealing with Women in a Church is forgery.

The passage in question is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and the evidence against it is far from conclusive enough to dismiss it as a "forgery" - quite the contrary, actually. Long story short is that the passage appears in *every* NT manuscript and codex. In most of the earliest texts, it appears right where we find it - immediately following verse 33. In about half of the "western" witnesses (usually less reliable) it appears at the end of chapter 14. The other half of the western witnesses have it right where every other manuscript does - after verse 33.

Daniel Wallace (Executive Director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts) has a good article that addresses the issue here: http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-corinthians-1434-35

As for the statement about female authors of Scripture, I've never heard claim of such unless it's someone assuming that Ruth and Esther were written by the women themselves (tradition has it that they were penned by Samuel and Mordecai respectively as far as I can see at first glance).

While I do agree that there is no "sexism" in the Bible, there *are* and always will be things in it that people can and will construe to be "sexist". This is a bit outside the realm of "plot holes" discussion, but biblically-speaking God created men and women as equals, yet they are created differently and for different roles. I know that modern egalitarianism would say that any difference in role is just inequality by another name, and that's fine if someone wants to say that, but it's not the counsel of Scripture (or even nature). Just a side-note there, as our church is doing a multi-week study of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (at the behest of many of the ladies in our fellowship, actually).

But to the topic of "plot holes" and "forgeries", that's the one thing a person has to be careful of when studying textual variants. There's plenty of individuals and movements that invest their time in exegeting variants - in coming-up with fanciful reasons for particular variants in Scripture (one need look no further than the likes of Bart Ehrman). It's always best, therefore, to look at the actual variant yourself and to look at a few different sources that talk about it. Bible.org is a great resource for this, since there's usually extensive footnotes for the text itself, as well as articles by folks like Daniel Wallace, D.A. Carson, and others.

I'll speed you up on the thread. This actually came from an offshoot of the "Is it okay for a Christian to hate Satan" thread where this thread creation was a request. I remembered some of the stuff WizardovMetal spoke about with their being plot holes and such, and I was disagreeing with him, and we both agreed to make a thread about it.

I was in general saying that sans Scripture forges, there are no plot holes in the Bible at all, except for maybe Judas Iscariot. I was expecting Him to enlighten me on what he was talking about with plot holes being everywhere, but I haven't seen any yet.

The women speaking in church and the sexism claim is something that I remembered, although I never dug deep with it. Shoot, I'm still on Matthew, so just about everything with the roles in the church is moreso a general statement to maybe answer Wizard's explain post than it is to say this is the Truth, as you've provided a counter-arguement for it.

So, overall, I'm agreeing with you here. Had it not been requested, this thread would have never been made as I'm not seeing any holes and I am very comfortable that the Scriptures we have are very reliable and not "hole-y". I do thank you for the post however. Gives me something to think about when I get into Corinthians and the rest of Paul's letters to the various Churches.

Last thing: Even if you are correct on Ruth and Esther, where I mainly got that statement from is The Song of Solomon. There is by far to great (and X-rated material imo) that heavily suggest it was written by Solomon's Wife, and not Solomon himself. The only way I could see this is if the "towerful breasts" and "receiving the spice of life" is actually a hidden symbolism rather than the author describing their bodies and how much they love their spouse and wanting to do sexual encounters with them.

Although X-rated imo, I know the Song of Solomon is really about how to Truly Love your' spouse, and not about sexual intercourse. All I'm saying is, that 1 book really suggests it was written by a Woman (or possibly a hermaphrodite, but I won't dig into that kind of suggestion at this point in time).
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