Since, this is a reference thread for me, I feel I should at least post a lot of the earlier texts that have been known about so we can pick and choose which one to discuss.
Codex Sinaiticus: 4th Century in Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_SinaiticusFor proper viewing of this Codex, go to the link here:
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/It also seems this is the only Codex where you can read and observe it in all it's entirety and translation.
Codex Vaticanus: 4th century in Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_VaticanusThese 2 are often cited as the Oldest and most accurate of all the Codexes.
Papyrus 45: So far, the oldest known NT text period. According to wikipedia, it was made around 250 ad around Egypt. Written in Greek and only contains the Gospels and Acts, albeit in pieces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_45Codex Alexandrinus: Following the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus lies the Alexandrinus, which is a 5th century Greek codex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_AlexandrinusCodex Bezae Cantabrigensis: Also made in the 5th century, but is written in Greek and Latin. The problem I'm reading on it with wikipedia is saying, this is where a lot of add ons and changes came about and these changes made it to the Latin Vulgate, which in turn is what translated to many of our English Bibles. This I'm reading is where the start of changing the Scriptures came about, if I am reading the wikipedia correctly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_BezaeCodex Beratinus: 6th century greek of Matthew and Mark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_BeratinusCodex Bobiensis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_BobiensisAnd with all that said, this really needs to be written:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_Latin_manuscriptsAnd in conclusion with some of these, it looks like the oldest texts we do have no matter how damaged are the Papyruses.
Now, with all that said, there is 1 issue from the Trinity thread I will challenge here:
- Shamax wrote:
Since the discussion is going in this direction though, I think a little more clarification or talk is needed on the nature of the transmission of the biblical text and the existence of "variants". I looked briefly at the link that DoL provided where it referred to such things as "forgeries" but I believe there is too much loaded and implied in that term for it to be used honestly (at least, when referring to the greatest majority of textual variants). True, there *are* places where verses have been "maliciously" inserted, but that's the wonderful thing about have so many different "families" of manuscripts over such a wide range of time and geography - it makes these insertions stick out like a sore thumb. Thankfully most modern translations readily identify them as unoriginal and relegate them either to a footnote or they set them off from the rest of the text by some means.
With that being said, you can claim that about the site itself, but what of the Historical figures and the sites/books they got that from? So, I agree in no point in refuting the site, but that still leaves the links the site used and the words of Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Augustine?
Yes, that is a Truth that I am seeing is that we do have so many versions, that forgery is actually easier to see than for a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean that the exact Scripture is perfect. Even then, the earliest I'm seeing though is 3rd-4th century writings where our True NT was 1st-2nd century. So, call me paranoid, but I'm also making sure that we didn't lose out on any truths when it transferred from 1st-2nd century to the 3rd/4th century texts. Just how much of a shock would it be if some of the verses used in the Trinity thread really were forged from the 3rd century and not initially written in?
And I'm not sure how a proper discussion on this will go, unless it is going to be similar to the Trinity thread and we base this off of that thread, especially with some of my claims made.
EDIT: It may also be best if I put up these links as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscripthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translationsand I'm including what caused me to get into all of this, and to an extent, creation of the Trinity thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_criticismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible