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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:51 pm

Mark wrote:
Obviously human sexuality cannot be a perfect mirror, but there is a mystical connection that transcends mere analogy. Sexuality is far more than just sticking stuff together and then a baby pops out. Two become one flesh and from their love comes a child-The lover and the beloved are two persons of one God and proceeding from their love is the Holy Spirit, which is is love and is the third person of the holy trinity. The Lover is love, the beloved is love, the love is love, but the lover is not the beloved and the beloved is not the lover, and the love is not the lover, the love is not the beloved, but they are all love.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg " border="0" alt="" />

You misunderstand the procession of the Holy Spirit.
The love between the father and the son never began, it always was. Eternally proceeding from the love between the two was the Holy Spirit.

To begin, is that pic that won’t upload this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity

If it is, it has already been discussed and debunked earlier in the thread. If you want me to refute that shield, then I’ll just let the scriptures speak for themselves:

Genesis 1:1-3 (King James Version)
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 41:38
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Exodus 31:3
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Exodus 35:31
And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Numbers 11:29
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Numbers 24:2
And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

Deuteronomy 2:30
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

1 Samuel 10:10
And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 11:6
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.

1 Samuel 19:20
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 19:23
And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

2 Chronicles 15:1
And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

2 Chronicles 24:20
And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Ecclesiastes 2:26
For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Isaiah 48:16
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Ezekiel 11:24
Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Ezekiel 39:29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 7:40
But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Philippians 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Philippians 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

1 Thessalonians 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 4:14
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Every single one of these verses show that the Holy Spirit IS The Father, and the Spirit IS Jesus Christ!

If that still doesn’t show you, then I saved the best for last, the 1 set of parallel verses that distinctively show what the Spirit is!

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And it’s parallel:

Mark 1:10
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

John 1:32
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

So, if Binity is a heresy, then I guess the Bible is a Heresy.


Mark wrote:

It will come, with elaboration.

Thank you.

Mark wrote:

Quote :
The Father, with His' almighty power and Truth (Holy Spirit), chose Mary to bear the Son (Jesus Christ). So, if you want reproduction God (with His' Spirit) creates Jesus. It is NOT God with Jesus creating their Spirit that has been there since the start.

This neither follows logically nor is it relevant. God chose Mary to be the Theotokos. Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was never created, He eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Quote :
That was what I said. Perhaps you should read more clearly instead of trying to attack me all the time?

If we are on the same page I see no point in debate.
Quote :


I agree on that point. I don’t see why you were trying to debate me on that.

Mark wrote:

You are contradicting all orthodox Christian teaching for 2000 straight years. Macedonianism (the name of your belief) was officially condemned as heresy in A.D. 381.
In the words of a Saint and scholar:

To begin, I'm not a Macedonianist. I don't even believe what the Macedonianists believe. If you want to know what I really believe, look this up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism

Mark wrote:

You ARE a Macedonianist. That is the historical name of binitarianism.

No, Macedonianist is the name that Catholics called any and all Binitarians. They feared of this view, so they labeled them all the same and deemed them heretics, exactly what you are doing. So, since you blanket state I’m a Macedonianist and a heretic, I do the same thing calling you Pagan. It goes nowhere and I’m not letting you getting this thread closed.

Like I said, you have a very narrow minded, jaded, and pre-conceived view of history. In reality, the Trinity views didn’t start up until after 100 a.d., NOT when Christ was here on the Earth or anything of the sort. Notice how nobody can quote a Trinity before the 100 a.d.? Yet, The scriptures show time and time again, (with proof up there) that a Binity is heavily implied in scriptures, and this thread has proven that the scriptures that do support a Trinity are nothing more than added in forgeries by Trinitarians to cause the majority to submit to the Trinity belief, which is a Pagan belief, not a Christian belief.

Macedonianists came from the 4th century. Binitarians have been around since the Apostles. I don’t see Catholicism having any right to label Binitarians, especially since nobody from Catholicism can show that the church Truly started from the 30-40 a.d. like they claim. Macedonianists and Binitarians have far differing views, just like Catholics and Mormons for example. To label me as such, just shows nothing but ignorance, and lack of wisdom in exchange for mud-slinging banter.

Mark wrote:

Quote :
Mark wrote:

Saint Epiphanius of Salamis, 310-403 wrote:

"Semi-Arians…hold the truly orthodox view of the Son, that he was forever with the Father…but has been begotten without beginning and not in time…But all of these blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and do not count him in the Godhead with the Father and the Son"


Your belief is a dead, ancient heresy. Don't even think you can contradict the fathers of the Church, you are NOT a bishop, you are NOT a scholar, you were not present at the councils, you didn't compile the scriptures. You don't the history of what you are pontificating about.

Except I don't even believe in the believe you are accusing me of believing. You can't really call me a heretic, when you are a Pagan. Also, I know of the history. I just call it as it is as opposed to only showing a jaded and narrow view of history.

I can call you a heretic. Your beliefs contradict orthodox, ergo, you are a heretic.
OK, call me a Pagan. That is not of much use to the argument but if you wish to spout logically meaningless non-arguments such as that then go for it. Smile [/quote]

I can call you a heretic. Your beliefs contradict orthodox, ergo, you are a heretic.
OK, call me a Macedonianist. That is not of much use to the argument but if you wish to spout logically meaningless non-arguments such as that then go for it. Smile

Mark wrote:
Yes sir. Permission to call someone unorthodox/heterodox?

According to your’ beliefs, you only need to look in the mirror.

Now seriously, please drop the smart-alec banter and discuss this civilly. There is absolutely no need for this banter, so please stop. I really do not want this thread closed!
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:03 pm

Alright. I know that I left off on a bad foot, but this time, I have plenty of sources that shows Binitarianism, what the Early Church Truly Believed, and even plenty of Early Church Fathers that supported this view, including Paul who wrote about 1/2 the NT.

http://www.cogwriter.com/binitarian.htm

http://www.cbcg.org/defining_oneness1.htm

Also, for Mark, I do know you really enjoy the Catholic Saints, so some of these Binitarian sources are from Catholic Saints like Melito of Sardis, and Polycarp, for your' viewing pleasure! Smile

http://www.cogwriter.com/melito.htm

http://www.cogwriter.com/ignatius.htm

http://www.cogwriter.com/polycarpletter.htm
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:39 am

I didn't read the whole thread.

In the 1980s after my dad got out of the military he spent 20 years researching the trinity and if it was true, he found that it was not and that it was based off of a series of "holy books" called the Apocrypha (the books that contain that Jesus had children)

Right now the sermon is on old old tapes which i am converting into digital formate, it's about 10 hours of information on the single subject, it covers everything you want to know.

I know it's an old thread but i thought i would post.

I will make a new thread when the sermon is up online

John 20:31
Quote :
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:11 am

psychopathologist wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread.

In the 1980s after my dad got out of the military he spent 20 years researching the trinity and if it was true, he found that it was not and that it was based off of a series of "holy books" called the Apocrypha (the books that contain that Jesus had children)

Right now the sermon is on old old tapes which i am converting into digital formate, it's about 10 hours of information on the single subject, it covers everything you want to know.

I know it's an old thread but i thought i would post.

I will make a new thread when the sermon is up online

John 20:31
Quote :
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
CAN'T WAIT.
Also...
Who else senses flame wars imminent???
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:54 am

My I suggest another one alongside Binitarianism?

Pure monotheism.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:42 pm

How about explaining away pure monotheism via Jesus' baptism--when He was being baptized by John; the Holy Spirit soared above Him; and the Father's voice boomed from heaven. All of this happened simultaneously. With one fell swoop, the heresy of modalism was disproven, and monotheistic unitarianism was summarily owned.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:47 pm

How does that=G-d?
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:37 pm

Because Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. All three Persons of the Trinity.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:41 pm

psychopathologist wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread.

Your first mistake Razz

psychopathologist wrote:
In the 1980s after my dad got out of the military he spent 20 years researching the trinity and if it was true, he found that it was not and that it was based off of a series of "holy books" called the Apocrypha (the books that contain that Jesus had children)

Mistake #2 is I think you're probably referring to the Gnostic gospels rather than the Apocrypha - there's a pretty big difference. What's commonly known as the Apocrypha is a group of "intertestamenal" works (meaning they take place largely in the span between the Old and New Testament).

Mistake #3 is that if the result of 20 years of "labor" was that your father couldn't find a single verse or section of the Bible that believers commonly cite as a basis for the doctrine of the Trinity, he either didn't try very hard, was just dying to find some kind of conspiracy theory, and/or likely never talked to a knowledgeable Protestant *or* Catholic.

psychopathologist wrote:
Right now the sermon is on old old tapes which i am converting into digital formate, it's about 10 hours of information on the single subject, it covers everything you want to know.

I know it's an old thread but i thought i would post.

I will make a new thread when the sermon is up online

John 20:31
Quote :
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

I'll bite though. I'd be interested to hear what information is presented, though I doubt it's likely to be much of anything new if it amounts to "the gnostics made it up". From what little I even know of the gnostics, they believed in "phases" of Creator-deities - "emanations" I think is what they called them - each slightly less perfect than the previous. Such isn't even in the same ballpark as what Protestants and Catholics mean when they talk about the doctrine of the Trinity.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:37 pm

(Edited for space and staying on topic.)


Last edited by FireProphet on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:41 pm

GraceUnderPressure wrote:
Because Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. All three Persons of the Trinity.

And another problem.

There is for-sure proof that Jesus is God. There is for-sure proof the Father is God. Where are people coming up with the Holy Spirit being God (at least as another person instead of a Spirit)?

The only thing Scriptures Truly show about the Holy Spirit is that it is a Spirit that is sent by God or the Father to do stuff.

So far, HS being God is man-made.

Notice, if the HS IS God, why was He NEVER called God in the Scriptures ever!?!?!

If the HS IS God, then why was He NEVER worshipped? or served? or prayed to like the Father and Son were?

If the HS IS God, then why is it EVERY time the True Essentials were brought up, or being greeted with the FULL Godhead, the Holy Spirit was ALWAYS left out!?!?! Every True Essential ONLY dealt with the Father and Son.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:52 pm

FireProphet wrote:
Hm, that's kind of mean, man. I have no idea what his father's conclusions were. They could be crazy, but I don't understand this. I grew out of thinking I had absolute knowledge and understanding about the details of God. People often pretend that what they've been indoctrinated or educated with, exposed to or discovered, holds more weight than what anyone else has. Ridiculous.

Particularly with the spiritual, it makes no sense that Christians would deify themselves and brashly shut down ideas by acting as if they have absolute knowledge, about a God who is so completely holy, regarding theology which is not explicitly defined in Scripture.

You might want to read my comment again. I never said I had absolute knowledge. However, to swoop into a long thread of good back-and-forth discussion saying you didn't bother to read anything, makes the statements this person does (including mistaking the Apocrypha for the gnostic gospels) and to say that the doctrine of the Trinity came about from gnostic sources, as though there's absolutely nothing in Scripture to form a foundation for it, *does* reek of the kind of prideful arrogance you seemed to be insinuating that I had.

As for "shutting down other ideas", we *are* to hold things up to Scripture and measure them in that way like the Bereans. But if, for instance, someone made the claim that Jesus wasn't really a Jew from Galilee, but rather lived in France in the 7th Century working as a women's handbag designer, I wouldn't have a problem saying "I think you need to go look at your sources a little better before you waste someone else's time". Ergo, to come out of the blue like this guy has, ignoring the rest of the thread, and posting the equivalent of "you're all just wrong, there's nothing *anywhere* in the Bible that could even remotely defend the doctrine of the Trinity, it was made up by the Maccabees... err... I mean, the gnostics" seems like a red herring or non-constructive at best.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:30 pm

(Edit for space/staying on topic)


Last edited by FireProphet on Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:26 am

FireProphet wrote:
Shamax wrote:
20 years of "labor..." he either didn't try very hard, was just dying to find some kind of conspiracy theory, and/or likely never talked to a knowledgeable Protestant *or* Catholic.
You gave only three possible options, and all negative. This shows you believe there are no other options, which would be presuming absolute knowledge on the issue.

I don't see where this person's on the offense as some sort of invader, either. They said their dad spent a great deal of time researching it, what their dad's conclusion was, and that they'd post the information for those who may be interested, which is thoughtful and means they apparently read enough of the thread to understand that would be of interest to some. You wouldn't blame someone for not reading Death over Life's posts in their entirety would you? Razz
They didn't even make a statement personally. They're just mentioning their dad's studies. Easy with the pitchfork is all I'm saying.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:11 am

Actually, I gave those three particular options because of the relevant portion of what I said that you lopped out of the quote: the claim that the Trinity is based solely on extra-biblical sources. But I digress. I apologize if I've given offense unduly. I'm glad that if/when this person digitizes said material that it will be set apart into its own thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:56 pm

Shamax wrote:
psychopathologist wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread.

Your first mistake Razz

psychopathologist wrote:
In the 1980s after my dad got out of the military he spent 20 years researching the trinity and if it was true, he found that it was not and that it was based off of a series of "holy books" called the Apocrypha (the books that contain that Jesus had children)

Mistake #2 is I think you're probably referring to the Gnostic gospels rather than the Apocrypha - there's a pretty big difference. What's commonly known as the Apocrypha is a group of "intertestamenal" works (meaning they take place largely in the span between the Old and New Testament).

Mistake #3 is that if the result of 20 years of "labor" was that your father couldn't find a single verse or section of the Bible that believers commonly cite as a basis for the doctrine of the Trinity, he either didn't try very hard, was just dying to find some kind of conspiracy theory, and/or likely never talked to a knowledgeable Protestant *or* Catholic.

1. My bad.

2. That's true, depending on which verison of the bible you read, the Catholic church has accepted the Apocrypha as being divine writings which they then proceeded to place into the bible.

3. My father goes through over 70-80 verses on what most churches use as proof of the trinity

Also I would like to note that I was referring to the Apocrypha as the source of the trinity because the word it's self does not appear in the bible.

And FireProphet is right, i'm not here to push an idea of mine personally, i am only claiming the fact my dad spent a very long time going back as far as possible into the actual start of the trinity.

I only ask that you consider it and listen to it.


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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:05 pm

Just keep us up to date on the thing. Will it be downloadable?

Also, no, I don't blame anyone for not reading all my posts lol. I think I've calmed down on posts of that length so far.

So, one other question. Since it is going against Trinity, what would be the other view it would support? Oneness, Modalism, Binitarianism, Unitarianism, Dualism, etc?
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Shamax

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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:19 pm

psychopathologist wrote:
My father goes through over 70-80 verses on what most churches use as proof of the trinity

Ahh, alright. It seemed as though you were saying that NT sources were assumed to be silent on the whole matter of God's nature. I still think you're meaning gnostic apocryphal works (not to be confused the the books that Roman Catholics accept known as "The Apocrypha"). His attempts to refute common proof-texts for Trinitarian doctrine combine with the proof-texts/statements for his own position should spell out pretty clearly where he's coming from, though.

Again, sorry if I jumped the gun. To see someone with only 5 posts come into the middle of a thread like this with something out of left field (compared to where the thread's topic had been going) made my troll-sense tingle. Again, apologies.

I still need to remind myself to compile an article on the personhood of the Holy Spirit in light of DoL's remarks and stance that the Spirit is soul/mind of the Father and/or the Son. Some day...
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:19 pm

Here is some stuff you might find interesting
(I didn't write it)
Just something to go over until i get the tapes uploaded

God is not a man Jesus was a man (Conceived of the Holy Spirit)
John 4:24; 1John 4:12 Hebrew 10:12; 1Timothy 2:5
Numbers 23:19; Isaiah 40:28 Acts 2:22; John 4:6
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God is the God of Gods & Jesus Christ is a God
Lord of Lords (By divine rights as also were the Jews)
1Corinithians 8:4-6; Hebrew 1:9 Hebrew 1:8; John 10:32-36
Mathew 27:46; Mathew 22:44 Exodus 7:1
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God cannot be tempted Jesus was tempted
James 1:13 Hebrew 4:15
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God knows ALL things Jesus did not know ALL things
1John 3:20; Mathew 6:8 Mark 13:32
Luke 16:15; Hebrew 4:13
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God did His own will Jesus did not do his own will
John 3:16; 1Thessalonians 2:13 John 4:34; John 5:30
Acts 2:23; Ephesians 1:4,5 Mathew 26:39,42; Luke 22:42
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God as ALL authority Jesus did not have ALL authority
Job 37:23; Psalm 147:5 Mark 10:37-40
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God’s glory always was Jesus’ glory was given to him
Genesis 1:1; Psalm 41:13 John 5:19; Mathew 28:18; Acts 2:36
II Kings 19:15; Psalm 108:5 Ephesians 1:22; John 13:3; John 17:2,4,6-9
John 5:26,27,36; John 6:37,39
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God placed Jesus under Him Jesus placed himself under God
Isaiah 52:13; Mathew 3:17 Mark 10:18; John 14:28
Isaiah 53:11; Psalm 110:4 I Corinthians 15:28
Hebrew 5:10; Hebrew 9:11,24
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The Word of God says Jesus is the Son of God
Mathew 3:17; 8:29; 14:33; 16:16; 17:5; 27:43,54
Mark 1:1,11; 3:11; 5:7; 9:7; 15:39
Luke 1:35; 3:22; 4:41; 8:28; 9:35; 22:70
John 1:34,49 3:16,17,18; 6:69; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4,27; 20:31
Acts 8:37; 9:20; 13:33
Romans 1:3,4; 5:10; 8:3
I Corinthians 1:9; 15:28
II Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 2:20; 4:4
Ephesians 4:13
Hebrew 1:5,8; 4:14; 5:5; 6:6
1 John 1:3,7; 3:8; 4:9,15; 5:5,10,12,13,20
2 John 3; Revelations 2:18


Death over Life, i guess i would classify it as Monotheism.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:00 pm

If this is indicative of what's in the tapes (and again, I'd like to save most discussion of said teachings for a separate thread), it seems as if your father is arguing for only "the Father" being God with Jesus being a lesser form of deity. That gives a starting point for understanding where this will be coming from.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:51 pm

Matthew 28:18-19
"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,"

But I guess you could discount the word of Jesus.

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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:23 pm

JeffdlS wrote:
Matthew 28:18-19

I'm sure this will be one of the verses he addresses. We even dealt with it earlier in the thread, but if his father's arguing for only the Father being God, then this isn't necessarily a proof-text against that in and of itself. It primarily shows a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit although it does indicate a unity of sorts as well. But again, that's why I'm waiting for the separate thread on the tapes since a lot of the common objections and texts have been addressed, even if just in passing earlier in this thread.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:43 pm

Shamax wrote:
JeffdlS wrote:
Matthew 28:18-19

I'm sure this will be one of the verses he addresses. We even dealt with it earlier in the thread, but if his father's arguing for only the Father being God, then this isn't necessarily a proof-text against that in and of itself. It primarily shows a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit although it does indicate a unity of sorts as well. But again, that's why I'm waiting for the separate thread on the tapes since a lot of the common objections and texts have been addressed, even if just in passing earlier in this thread.

Yeah, it may have been semi-dealt earlier, but I was mainly complaining that it was added in later on.

Even with that arguement aside, one proof that the verse doesn't show a Trinity is it is strictly dealing with Baptism, not Godhead as the Trinitarians use to support it. The whole context is Baptism. The one arguement I used that still stands is just because all 3 are mentioned together doesn't completely make it God.

The Holy Spirit plays an important part with Baptism, which is why we see the HS descending like a dove with Jesus' Baptism among others.

One interesting thing I'll say: Because there is proof of the Bible about what the HS does, does this mean that God possesses people just like how demons can possess people? And if so, I'd be interested in Scripture that says that God possesses people. (This isn't the filled with the Holy Spirit verses either).

I wonder if the verse dealing with "The Word was with God and the Word was/is God" is mentioned in the commentary.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:09 pm

Something else of thought.

With both that has been said, calling Jesus a lesser form of a Deity, is STILL calling Jesus a Deity.

So, indirectly, even what psychopathologist is still proving a 2-part Godhead.

Quote :
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is the God of Gods & Jesus Christ is a God
Lord of Lords (By divine rights as also were the Jews)
1Corinithians 8:4-6; Hebrew 1:9 Hebrew 1:8; John 10:32-36
Mathew 27:46; Mathew 22:44 Exodus 7:1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bolding is mine. Truly looking at that, that would technically show Binity, or Polytheism.

If I'm misinterpreting, then I'd like to know.
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PostSubject: Re: The Holy Trinity   Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:57 am

Death over Life wrote:
There is for-sure proof that Jesus is God. There is for-sure proof the Father is God. Where are people coming up with the Holy Spirit being God (at least as another person instead of a Spirit)?

...So far, HS being God is man-made.

Notice, if the HS IS God, why was He NEVER called God in the Scriptures ever!?!?!

Death over Life wrote:
...to say the HS has been called God is a farce.

there is literally no Scriptures that show the Holy Spirit being called God...


Horsefeathers ;-) Random example: lying to the Holy Spirit is called lying to God in Acts 5:

"...you have lied to the Holy Spirit... you have not lied to men but to God" (Acts 5:3-4).

If as you say "there is literally no Scriptures that show the Holy Spirit being called God" how would you view the above passage?
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