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wiremu.white

wiremu.white

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:14 am

Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, in the traditional sense: places in the afterlife where one is either with God in paradise, or another where one is suffering in eternal conscious torment as punishment for sin forever.

I believe in both, and I don't think you can really call yourself a Christian if you don't because Jesus spoke a lot about both. If you disagree with Jesus, you need a godly reason to do so... and he's God, so that doesn't really work.
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Exhumed

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:54 am

wiremu.white wrote:
Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, in the traditional sense: places in the afterlife where one is either with God in paradise, or another where one is suffering in eternal conscious torment as punishment for sin forever.


Yes, I do.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:37 am

wiremu.white wrote:
Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, in the traditional sense: places in the afterlife where one is either with God in paradise, or another where one is suffering in eternal conscious torment as punishment for sin forever.

I believe in both, and I don't think you can really call yourself a Christian if you don't because Jesus spoke a lot about both. If you disagree with Jesus, you need a godly reason to do so... and he's God, so that doesn't really work.

No, I do not believe in Heaven and Hell in the traditional sense. As in the Why don't people believe? thread, the reason why I don't believe in Heaven and Hell in the traditional sense is because it is a lie. I've had this arguement at another time with Metl, so I'll basically be repeating if I discuss this again.

Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).
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lord voldemort

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:33 pm

The bible gives two threads of this discussion: The Life and Death Thread. Everything revolves around this theme. That includes the end.

We are resurrected to life or to death. There is no middle ground. Based on this there is no eternal life of judgment for the unbeliever, they die! That is why it is called the "Second Death".

Hell is simply the grave (to sum it all up), not an eternal fire chamber.

Some will be resurrected to life and some will be resurrected to death.

Those that are resurrected on the second coming of Christ will be resurrected to life, when we "meet" him in the air. Than he will resurrect the dead, they will be judged and he will condemn them, they will bow to him and then be thrown into judgment, the second death. The first life is this life, the first death is when they die. They will come back to life and be condemned and then thrown into the second death.

They will cease to exist in death. While others will live in the second life.
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wiremu.white

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:00 pm

lord voldemort wrote:
The bible gives two threads of this discussion: The Life and Death Thread. Everything revolves around this theme. That includes the end.

We are resurrected to life or to death. There is no middle ground. Based on this there is no eternal life of judgment for the unbeliever, they die! That is why it is called the "Second Death".

Hell is simply the grave (to sum it all up), not an eternal fire chamber.

Some will be resurrected to life and some will be resurrected to death.

Those that are resurrected on the second coming of Christ will be resurrected to life, when we "meet" him in the air. Than he will resurrect the dead, they will be judged and he will condemn them, they will bow to him and then be thrown into judgment, the second death. The first life is this life, the first death is when they die. They will come back to life and be condemned and then thrown into the second death.

They will cease to exist in death. While others will live in the second life.

How do you interpret the following:

  • "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:11
  • "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" - Matthew 25:41
  • "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" - Luke 16:24
  • "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7
  • "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
  • "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" - Revelation 2:11


You have to admit, it sure sounds like an eternal fire chamber. The second death, if it is a ceasing thing... well then that doesn't sound like the "forever and ever" and "day and night" mentioned in the first passage. I have read in a recent book on Heaven and Hell that the suffering of the damned is similar to Moses' burning bush, which burned but was not consumed. This was put as an argument against annihilation.

As for heaven, I take it everyone here believes that, though I suppose we would have different versions of that too.
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JeffdlS

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:39 am

Death over Life wrote:

Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

ROFL
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:34 am

Death over Life wrote:
Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

If that were the case, those dodgy translators ought to go there.

If you did believe in hell, do you think you'd deserve to go there as punishment? Why or why not? How bad is any given sin? Or, how dare you sin? (by which I mean do something God or perhaps conscience forbids).

PS For that matter, if you reject hell, do you also correspondingly reject the Christian Bible's God's authority to say what you shall and shall not do with your life?
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:58 am

JeffdlS wrote:
Death over Life wrote:

Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

ROFL

If it is so funny, then state your case.

wiremu.white wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

If that were the case, those dodgy translators ought to go there.

If you did believe in hell, do you think you'd deserve to go there as punishment? Why or why not? How bad is any given sin? Or, how dare you sin? (by which I mean do something God or perhaps conscience forbids).

PS For that matter, if you reject hell, do you also correspondingly reject the Christian Bible's God's authority to say what you shall and shall not do with your life?

To begin with, I do believe in a “Hell” but not in the traditional sense, in which that is what you stated. Perhaps if you wanted just Hell instead, you should have re-worded the question.

For starters, you don’t go to Heaven/Hell. The way it works is we all go to Sheol, believers or not. From what I have seen/heard, there is a Gehenna and Hades. I think (don’t quote me since I only have limited knowledge) the unbelievers end up in Hades till the 2nd judgement. There is a Tartaros, but left only for the fallen angels exclusively, not for us. Also, another part I see is Abraham’s bosom. I know this was for before Christ’s death/resurrection, but I shall have to do more research. Either way with all these afterlives, the 2nd judgement comes. From there, you will see righteous enter life eternal, and unbelievers being thrown to the Lake of Fire. This is where Revelation comes with that passage, and death and hell were thrown to the Lake of Fire, this is the 2nd death.

Since you misunderstood what I wrote since I was simply answering your question in the op, I shouldn’t answer your questions since they imply I don’t believe in a Hell or even afterlife period, which contradict my views.

wiremu.white wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:
The bible gives two threads of this discussion: The Life and Death Thread. Everything revolves around this theme. That includes the end.

We are resurrected to life or to death. There is no middle ground. Based on this there is no eternal life of judgment for the unbeliever, they die! That is why it is called the "Second Death".

Hell is simply the grave (to sum it all up), not an eternal fire chamber.

Some will be resurrected to life and some will be resurrected to death.

Those that are resurrected on the second coming of Christ will be resurrected to life, when we "meet" him in the air. Than he will resurrect the dead, they will be judged and he will condemn them, they will bow to him and then be thrown into judgment, the second death. The first life is this life, the first death is when they die. They will come back to life and be condemned and then thrown into the second death.

They will cease to exist in death. While others will live in the second life.

How do you interpret the following:

  • "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:11
  • "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" - Matthew 25:41
  • "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" - Luke 16:24
  • "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7
  • "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
  • "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" - Revelation 2:11


You have to admit, it sure sounds like an eternal fire chamber. The second death, if it is a ceasing thing... well then that doesn't sound like the "forever and ever" and "day and night" mentioned in the first passage. I have read in a recent book on Heaven and Hell that the suffering of the damned is similar to Moses' burning bush, which burned but was not consumed. This was put as an argument against annihilation.

As for heaven, I take it everyone here believes that, though I suppose we would have different versions of that too.

I’m sorry, but Voldemort is correct on this one.

I shall give insight on some of these verses.

#1. I forgot, but Voldemort properly answered it.
#2. States the Fire is eternal. The punishment isn’t stated at all. The thing with annhihilationism, it doesn’t imply that the Fire which is God’s judgement, is going to be gone. It is eternal, hence eternal fire.
#3. To begin, is the Rich man currently in the Lake of Fire as we are speaking? No, he is in Sheol, and maybe Gehenna, (or as tradition speaks of “Hell”). So, he still has the Lake of Fire to go to, and then shall the 2nd death actually come.
#4. Were the people in Sodom and Gomorrah eternal? No, they were destroyed, which is an example of the eternal fire. As it is physically, so shall it be mentally, and spiritually.
#5.
#6. Both of the last ones don’t prove that you will be forever tormented. All they speak of is avoiding the 2nd death.

I have had that burning bush argument used to prove eternal damnation over annihilation. I shall research more on it in the coming week, but I shall also put forth some of my research. (In a paraphrased nutshell)

To begin, God is a God of the Living not the dead. Christ says come to Him and you will have eternal life. Christ says reject Him and you will die, some even quoted from above albeit maybe not directly from Christ’s mouth.

Now, if all this is true, then if I reject Christ, without Him, I live forever, just in pain, agony, and torment, instead of love, joy, and peace. Simply put it, if the eternal suffering is True, then Christ lied when He said we need Him to live eternally. If Jesus really is the God of the Living, then the Living Live and Dead Die, left with only Living. If we need Christ, yet it is Eternal Suffering, I live forever no matter what Christ, or not Christ, so why do we need Jesus for Eternal Life if we are given it no matter what? It is a contradiction. No matter what, I live forever, so Christ saying we need Him is a lie and contradiction, it is all just pain instead of joy.

I hope this better explains the Truth of it all.
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olias

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:28 pm

what a let down. I thought we were talking about this Heaven and Hell.

Heaven and Hell 99536_photo
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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:39 pm

DIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grim Banger Grim Banger Grim Banger
But..I think DoL Just likes using big words to appear smarter.
Itd be like a General saying: "Well men, we fought our best. Its time to capitulate."
Its him trying to sound stronger/smarter than he is.
Either way theyre still surrendering though...
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http://www.purevolume.com/themasterofawesomeness
Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:25 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
DIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grim Banger Grim Banger Grim Banger
But..I think DoL Just likes using big words to appear smarter.
Itd be like a General saying: "Well men, we fought our best. Its time to capitulate."
Its him trying to sound stronger/smarter than he is.
Either way theyre still surrendering though...

Now that is ROFL worthy.

Apparantly you know nothing of what you speak of. If you think I use "big" words to appear smarter, than hey, ignorance is bliss. I apologize my vocabulary is greater than yours. I'm not dumbing my posts down so the less intelligent can understand it.

Ignorance is bliss.
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lord voldemort

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:23 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:
The bible gives two threads of this discussion: The Life and Death Thread. Everything revolves around this theme. That includes the end.

We are resurrected to life or to death. There is no middle ground. Based on this there is no eternal life of judgment for the unbeliever, they die! That is why it is called the "Second Death".

Hell is simply the grave (to sum it all up), not an eternal fire chamber.

Some will be resurrected to life and some will be resurrected to death.

Those that are resurrected on the second coming of Christ will be resurrected to life, when we "meet" him in the air. Than he will resurrect the dead, they will be judged and he will condemn them, they will bow to him and then be thrown into judgment, the second death. The first life is this life, the first death is when they die. They will come back to life and be condemned and then thrown into the second death.

They will cease to exist in death. While others will live in the second life.

How do you interpret the following:

  • "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:11
  • "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" - Matthew 25:41
  • "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" - Luke 16:24
  • "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7
  • "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
  • "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" - Revelation 2:11


You have to admit, it sure sounds like an eternal fire chamber. The second death, if it is a ceasing thing... well then that doesn't sound like the "forever and ever" and "day and night" mentioned in the first passage. I have read in a recent book on Heaven and Hell that the suffering of the damned is similar to Moses' burning bush, which burned but was not consumed. This was put as an argument against annihilation.

As for heaven, I take it everyone here believes that, though I suppose we would have different versions of that too.

1. Revelation is a symbolic book. Not a literal book. So what is stated within the book must be looked at in symbolism first, literalism second.

The judgment on them is eternal, that is the outcome of worshiping the Beast. Literal or symbolic, the meaning is clear, their death/judgment is eternal. Taken with other verses, like the second death, than their judgment is an eternal death.

2. Again, the language is eternal. Jesus used many symbols of First Century judgment to refer to eternal judgment. The act that Jesus is saying is symbolic, but the meaning behind it is eternal. When one dies on earth, they cease to exist here. The Second Death gives the same impression, but in a spiritual sense. Their death is literal and Eternal.

Since the Devil and his angels are immortal beings, they can not die. So their judgment is eternal. So will man's. But man is not eternal in the sense the devil is, we lost our immortality in the Garden. But those that are resurrected will live for ever and have gained it back. Whereas, those who are not resurrected to life are resurrected to death.

3. Luke passage is a Parable. Therefore, it should not be taken literal. But taken as a parable.

4. Jude is talking about punishment. The previous verse talks about angels in judgment.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. . .
Judgment is eternal, there is no turning back from it.

Christ is using this analogy to give us an idea that when you enter into judgment it is once and for all. Since Christ uses the analogy of life and death, then it must be similar to our own life and death. Life everlasting or death everlasting. Not life in death everlasting. That would be an oxymoron that is not attributed to man, as it is to Angels.

5. The second death is just that, DEATH. Just like death here. That death is eternal. That judgment is eternal. That the judgment is DEATH.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:25 pm

Death over Life wrote:


Now, if all this is true, then if I reject Christ, without Him, I live forever, just in pain, agony, and torment, instead of love, joy, and peace. Simply put it, if the eternal suffering is True, then Christ lied when He said we need Him to live eternally. If Jesus really is the God of the Living, then the Living Live and Dead Die, left with only Living. If we need Christ, yet it is Eternal Suffering, I live forever no matter what Christ, or not Christ, so why do we need Jesus for Eternal Life if we are given it no matter what? It is a contradiction. No matter what, I live forever, so Christ saying we need Him is a lie and contradiction, it is all just pain instead of joy.

I hope this better explains the Truth of it all.

That is a good point.
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wizardovmetal

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PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:03 pm

Death over Life wrote:
JeffdlS wrote:
Death over Life wrote:

Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

ROFL

If it is so funny, then state your case.

wiremu.white wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
Also, don't forget, the Scriptures have been intentionally mis-translated to destroy and get rid of all the other after-lives to create a place called Hell, with many of it's attributes actually being from the Lake of Fire and Gehenna (2 of the said afterlives Scriptures have had removed from it (sans 1 verse from Revelation for LoF) although the latter should be debated on if it even is an afterlife or not).

If that were the case, those dodgy translators ought to go there.

If you did believe in hell, do you think you'd deserve to go there as punishment? Why or why not? How bad is any given sin? Or, how dare you sin? (by which I mean do something God or perhaps conscience forbids).

PS For that matter, if you reject hell, do you also correspondingly reject the Christian Bible's God's authority to say what you shall and shall not do with your life?

To begin with, I do believe in a “Hell” but not in the traditional sense, in which that is what you stated. Perhaps if you wanted just Hell instead, you should have re-worded the question.

For starters, you don’t go to Heaven/Hell. The way it works is we all go to Sheol, believers or not. From what I have seen/heard, there is a Gehenna and Hades. I think (don’t quote me since I only have limited knowledge) the unbelievers end up in Hades till the 2nd judgement. There is a Tartaros, but left only for the fallen angels exclusively, not for us. Also, another part I see is Abraham’s bosom. I know this was for before Christ’s death/resurrection, but I shall have to do more research. Either way with all these afterlives, the 2nd judgement comes. From there, you will see righteous enter life eternal, and unbelievers being thrown to the Lake of Fire. This is where Revelation comes with that passage, and death and hell were thrown to the Lake of Fire, this is the 2nd death.

Since you misunderstood what I wrote since I was simply answering your question in the op, I shouldn’t answer your questions since they imply I don’t believe in a Hell or even afterlife period, which contradict my views.

wiremu.white wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:
The bible gives two threads of this discussion: The Life and Death Thread. Everything revolves around this theme. That includes the end.

We are resurrected to life or to death. There is no middle ground. Based on this there is no eternal life of judgment for the unbeliever, they die! That is why it is called the "Second Death".

Hell is simply the grave (to sum it all up), not an eternal fire chamber.

Some will be resurrected to life and some will be resurrected to death.

Those that are resurrected on the second coming of Christ will be resurrected to life, when we "meet" him in the air. Than he will resurrect the dead, they will be judged and he will condemn them, they will bow to him and then be thrown into judgment, the second death. The first life is this life, the first death is when they die. They will come back to life and be condemned and then thrown into the second death.

They will cease to exist in death. While others will live in the second life.

How do you interpret the following:

  • "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:11
  • "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" - Matthew 25:41
  • "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" - Luke 16:24
  • "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7
  • "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
  • "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" - Revelation 2:11


You have to admit, it sure sounds like an eternal fire chamber. The second death, if it is a ceasing thing... well then that doesn't sound like the "forever and ever" and "day and night" mentioned in the first passage. I have read in a recent book on Heaven and Hell that the suffering of the damned is similar to Moses' burning bush, which burned but was not consumed. This was put as an argument against annihilation.

As for heaven, I take it everyone here believes that, though I suppose we would have different versions of that too.

I’m sorry, but Voldemort is correct on this one.

I shall give insight on some of these verses.

#1. I forgot, but Voldemort properly answered it.
#2. States the Fire is eternal. The punishment isn’t stated at all. The thing with annhihilationism, it doesn’t imply that the Fire which is God’s judgement, is going to be gone. It is eternal, hence eternal fire.
#3. To begin, is the Rich man currently in the Lake of Fire as we are speaking? No, he is in Sheol, and maybe Gehenna, (or as tradition speaks of “Hell”). So, he still has the Lake of Fire to go to, and then shall the 2nd death actually come.
#4. Were the people in Sodom and Gomorrah eternal? No, they were destroyed, which is an example of the eternal fire. As it is physically, so shall it be mentally, and spiritually.
#5.
#6. Both of the last ones don’t prove that you will be forever tormented. All they speak of is avoiding the 2nd death.

I have had that burning bush argument used to prove eternal damnation over annihilation. I shall research more on it in the coming week, but I shall also put forth some of my research. (In a paraphrased nutshell)

To begin, God is a God of the Living not the dead. Christ says come to Him and you will have eternal life. Christ says reject Him and you will die, some even quoted from above albeit maybe not directly from Christ’s mouth.

Now, if all this is true, then if I reject Christ, without Him, I live forever, just in pain, agony, and torment, instead of love, joy, and peace. Simply put it, if the eternal suffering is True, then Christ lied when He said we need Him to live eternally. If Jesus really is the God of the Living, then the Living Live and Dead Die, left with only Living. If we need Christ, yet it is Eternal Suffering, I live forever no matter what Christ, or not Christ, so why do we need Jesus for Eternal Life if we are given it no matter what? It is a contradiction. No matter what, I live forever, so Christ saying we need Him is a lie and contradiction, it is all just pain instead of joy.

I hope this better explains the Truth of it all.

the NT clearly speaks of a paradise for beleivers
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wizardovmetal

wizardovmetal

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:06 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, in the traditional sense: places in the afterlife where one is either with God in paradise, or another where one is suffering in eternal conscious torment as punishment for sin forever.

I believe in both, and I don't think you can really call yourself a Christian if you don't because Jesus spoke a lot about both. If you disagree with Jesus, you need a godly reason to do so... and he's God, so that doesn't really work.

i beleive there is a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" my grandma was shown this place by god when she wanted to commit suicide and it was exactly that. darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

i beleive that all those covered by christs blood go to a paridise because christ often spoke of it.
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Death over Life

Death over Life

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:15 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:


the NT clearly speaks of a paradise for beleivers

I'm not denying the paradise although you may have seen that. I must research, but I don't believe the TRADITIONAL sense. I currently think that as spoken about earlier, the souls who believe, are in Sheol, not Heaven as the TRADITIONAL sense puts it.

I believe in a Heaven and a Lake of Fire (or if I have to say it, Hell), just not in the Traditional sense.
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wizardovmetal

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:22 pm

sheol means death. hades is "the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth", i do know however christ is in the paradise that beleivers go to. "i tell you the truth, today you will be in paradise with me"

as far as the "traditional view" of heaven, (clouds and harps) all i have to say is this
Rolling Eyes cyclops lol! ROFL
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Death over Life

Death over Life

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:34 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
sheol means death. hades is "the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth", i do know however christ is in the paradise that beleivers go to. "i tell you the truth, today you will be in paradise with me"

as far as the "traditional view" of heaven, (clouds and harps) all i have to say is this
Rolling Eyes cyclops lol! ROFL

I am glad you are seeing what I was referring to, not the entire belief system. Yes, Sheol is where you go after death, yet Scriptures translate it to the grave. My question is, if it is simply death, why is Sheol called the grave then? If you (as traditional sense implies) go straight to Heaven or Hell as traditional teachings go, then what in the world does it mean when Christ speaks of resurrecting everyone for the final judgement? How can you resurrect what is already alive? This is why I'm against the Traditional views, because there are many holes and loopholes within.

Yes, you and I agree on Traditional Heaven is indeed lol.
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lord voldemort

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:38 pm

You mean there are no clouds and harps? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:13 pm

lol, clouds and harps = hell to me! lol, the ressurection is the restoration of mans physical form.
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wiremu.white

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:17 am

Death over Life wrote:
Now, if all this is true, then if I reject Christ, without Him, I live forever, just in pain, agony, and torment, instead of love, joy, and peace. Simply put it, if the eternal suffering is True, then Christ lied when He said we need Him to live eternally.

Isn't this presuming that death itself = annihilation or non-existance ?

By "live" perhaps Jesus is talking about one state of existance (such as being on good terms with Him), and by death he simply means a different state of existence (being his enemy under condemnation), as opposed to non-existance or having ended.
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lord voldemort

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:18 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
lol, clouds and harps = hell to me! lol, the ressurection is the restoration of mans physical form.

I read a quote that Ted Turner said he is not a Christian because he does not want to go to heaven because, there is nothing but clouds and harps. To him that is hell.
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wizardovmetal

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:51 am

wiremu.white wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
Now, if all this is true, then if I reject Christ, without Him, I live forever, just in pain, agony, and torment, instead of love, joy, and peace. Simply put it, if the eternal suffering is True, then Christ lied when He said we need Him to live eternally.

Isn't this presuming that death itself = annihilation or non-existance ?

By "live" perhaps Jesus is talking about one state of existance (such as being on good terms with Him), and by death he simply means a different state of existence (being his enemy under condemnation), as opposed to non-existance or having ended.

well i beleive those who are cast into the lake of fire are destroyed, erased from exsistence. death, permanent death.
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Architeuthis

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:45 am

This sermon illustrates my favorite view of hell (that sounds sadistic, doesn't it?): Tim Keller - Hell: Isn't the God of Christianity an Angry Judge?

35 minutes, 16 megs, and probably well worth your time.

The skinny: Hell is just God giving sinful people what they desire. Imagine an immortal, unregenerate soul given complete reign over his destiny forever, without the restraining grace of God. What kind of horrors will he inflict on himself in the course of a year? Ten years? A hundred? 500 billion? "Hellfire" is too weak of a metaphor. It's unspeakably horrifying, but is it unjust? Is it cruel?
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Jim

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Heaven and Hell Vide
PostSubject: Re: Heaven and Hell   Heaven and Hell Icon_minitime1Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:40 am

i'm far from a scholar (except egyptology Razz)
but this idea of "eternal torment" in Hell because you don't believe everything in the bible (and that is how i've always been taught) just feels like "fear mongering"
What your saying LordV really makes sense that, if you do believe you get to live forever with JC but if you don't you just die forever.
Now thats a choice i can make without, fear, guilt etc.
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