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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:14 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
ill say this about the importance of faith in our salvation, we are justified by our faith in christ ALONE, our works WILL NOT save us. abraham was justified by his faith in god, christ says he who overcomes is he who beleives in christ. plain and simple. do we need to do works? absolutley, its about REPENTANCE, which means realizing what youve done is wrong, asking for forgivness, then working very hard to change. closeness to god, the fruits of the spirit, and faith is what sets you apart, this is the seal upon us.
Agreed. I feel there is a big difference between Repentance and works based idealogy such as Catholicism presents. Repentance is like restitution, it shows that you are ready to change and that you want to work towards that change. Works based is completely different IMO. It places more importance upon the means rather than the end.
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BryneVampyr

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:04 pm

Catholicism puts quite a bit of emphasis on repentance.
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:51 pm

Many of the Catholics I have met, have all been more informed on Church history and their reason of faith, than most protestants. I am talking about them quoting early church fathers, creeds, history, etc.

Many of them tend to be more educated in their faith.
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:54 pm

BryneVampyr wrote:
Catholicism puts quite a bit of emphasis on repentance.

But is this type of repentance a genuine, heartfelt one? Or is it a way for them to think that if they turn from committing sin and doing penance (which in RC theology is a part of repentance), that they will wash away and purge away their own sins before God by doing good and trite religious works? There is a big difference between being sorry that you have offended God by sin and repenting because He bought you completely with His finished work performed on the cross, and being sorry that you have offended God and repenting and doing penance as a way to make amends and keep a certain justification process going because God did not do enough. I'm sure that you, as a Lutheran, would completely agree with this.

To further solidify my point, I will post something written by Luther himself on this very issue in regards to Catholicism. He wrote this in his Smalcald Articles and this section is about the RCC's version of repentance in contrast to a genuine repentance:

Quote :
Of the False Repentance of the Papists.

10] It was impossible that they should teach correctly concerning repentance, since they did not [rightly] know the real sins [the real sin]. For, as has been shown above, they do not believe aright concerning original sin, but say that the natural powers of man have remained [entirely] unimpaired and incorrupt; that reason can teach aright, and the will can in accordance therewith do aright [perform those things which are taught]; that God certainly bestows His grace when a man does as much as is in him, according to his free will.

11] It had to follow thence [from this dogma] that they did [must do] penance only for actual sins, such as wicked thoughts to which a person yields (for wicked emotion [concupiscence, vicious feelings, and inclinations], lust and improper dispositions [according to them] are not sins), and for wicked words and wicked deeds, which free will could readily have omitted.

12] And of such repentance they fix three parts, contrition, confession, and satisfaction, with this [magnificent] consolation and promise added: If man truly repent, [feel remorse,] confess, render satisfaction, he thereby would have merited forgiveness, and paid for his sins before God [atoned for his sins and obtained a plenary redemption]. Thus in repentance they instructed men to repose confidence in their own works. 13] Hence the expression originated, which was employed in the pulpit when public absolution was announced to the people: Prolong O God, my life, until I shall make satisfaction for my sins and amend my life.

14] There was here [profound silence and] no mention of Christ nor faith; but men hoped by their own works to overcome and blot out sins before God. And with this intention we became priests and monks, that we might array ourselves against sin.

15] As to contrition, this is the way it was done: Since no one could remember all his sins (especially as committed through an entire year), they inserted this provision, namely, that if an unknown sin should be remembered later [if the remembrance of a concealed sin should perhaps return], this also must be repented of and confessed, etc. Meanwhile they were [the person was] commended to the grace of God.

16] Moreover, since no one could know how great the contrition ought to be in order to be sufficient before God, they gave this consolation: He who could not have contrition, at least ought to have attrition, which I may call half a contrition or the beginning of contrition; for they have themselves understood neither of these terms nor do they understand them now, as little as I. Such attrition was reckoned as contrition when a person went to confession.

17] And when it happened that any one said that he could not have contrition nor lament his sins (as might have occurred in illicit love or the desire for revenge, etc.), they asked whether he did not wish or desire to have contrition [lament]. When one would reply Yes (for who, save the devil himself, would here say No?), they accepted this as contrition, and forgave him his sins on account of this good work of his [which they adorned with the name of contrition]. Here they cited the example of St. Bernard, etc.

18] Here we see how blind reason, in matters pertaining to God, gropes about, and, according to its own imagination, seeks for consolation in its own works, and cannot think of [entirely forgets] Christ and faith. But if it be [clearly] viewed in the light, this contrition is a manufactured and fictitious thought [or imagination], derived from man's own powers, without faith and without the knowledge of Christ. And in it the poor sinner, when he reflected upon his own lust and desire for revenge, would sometimes [perhaps] have laughed rather than wept [either laughed or wept, rather than to think of something else], except such as either had been truly struck by [the lightning of] the Law, or had been vainly vexed by the devil with a sorrowful spirit. Otherwise [with the exception of these persons] such contrition was certainly mere hypocrisy, and did not mortify the lust for sins [flames of sin]; for they had to grieve, while they would rather have continued to sin, if it had been free to them.

19] As regards confession, the procedure was this: Every one had [was enjoined] to enumerate all his sins (which is an impossible thing). This was a great torment. From such as he had forgotten [But if any one had forgotten some sins] he would be absolved on the condition that, if they would occur to him, he must still confess them. In this way he could never know whether he had made a sufficiently pure confession [perfectly and correctly], or when confessing would ever have an end. Yet he was pointed to his own works, and comforted thus: The more fully [sincerely and frankly] one confesses, and the more he humiliates himself and debases himself before the priest, the sooner and better he renders satisfaction for his sins; for such humility certainly would earn grace before God.

20] Here, too, there was no faith nor Christ, and the virtue of the absolution was not declared to him, but upon his enumeration of sins and his self-abasement depended his consolation. What torture, rascality, and idolatry such confession has produced is more than can be related.

21] As to satisfaction, this is by far the most involved [perplexing] part of all. For no man could know how much to render for a single sin, not to say how much for all. Here they have resorted to the device of imposing a small satisfaction, which could indeed be rendered, as five Paternosters, a day's fast, etc.; for the rest [that was lacking] of the [in their] repentance they were directed to purgatory.

22] Here, too, there was nothing but anguish and [extreme] misery. [For] some thought that they would never get out of purgatory, because, according to the old canons, seven years' repentance is required for a single mortal sin. 23] Nevertheless, confidence was placed upon our work of satisfaction, and if the satisfaction could have been perfect, confidence would have been placed in it entirely, and neither faith nor Christ would have been of use. But this confidence was impossible. For, although any one had done penance in that way for a hundred years, he would still not have known whether he had finished his penance. That meant forever to do penance and never to come to repentance.

24] Here now the Holy See at Rome, coming to the aid of the poor Church, invented indulgences, whereby it forgave and remitted [expiation or] satisfaction, first, for a single instance, for seven years, for a hundred years and distributed them among the cardinals and bishops, so that one could grant indulgence for a hundred years and another for a hundred days. But he reserved to himself alone the power to remit the entire satisfaction.

25] Now, since this began to yield money, and the traffic in bulls became profitable he devised the golden jubilee year [a truly gold-bearing year], and fixed it at Rome. He called this the remission of all punishment and guilt. Then the people came running, because every one would fain have been freed from this grievous, unbearable burden. This meant to find [dig up] and raise the treasures of the earth. Immediately the Pope pressed still further, and multiplied the golden years one upon another. But the more he devoured money, the wider grew his maw.

Later, therefore, he issued them [those golden years of his] by his legates [everywhere] to the countries, until all churches and houses were full of the Golden Year. 26] At last he also made an inroad into purgatory among the dead, first, by founding masses and vigils, afterwards, by indulgences and the Golden Year, and finally souls became so cheap that he released one for a farthing.

27] But all this, too, was of no avail. For although the Pope taught men to depend upon, and trust in, these indulgences [for salvation], yet he rendered the [whole] matter again uncertain. For in his bulls he declares: Whoever would share in the indulgences or a Golden Year must be contrite, and have confessed, and pay money. Now, we have heard above that this contrition and confession are with them uncertain and hypocrisy. Likewise, also no one knew what soul was in purgatory, and if some were therein, no one knew which had properly repented and confessed. Thus he took the precious money [the Pope snatched up the holy pence], and comforted them meanwhile with [led them to confidence in] his power and indulgence, and [then again led them away from that and] directed them again to their uncertain work.

28] If, now [although], there were some who did not believe [acknowledge] themselves guilty of such actual sins in [committed by] thoughts, words, and works,—as I, and such as I, in monasteries and chapters [fraternities or colleges of priests], wished to be monks and priests, and by fasting, watching, praying, saying Mass, coarse garments, and hard beds, etc., fought against [strove to resist] evil thoughts, and in full earnest and with force wanted to be holy, and yet the hereditary, inborn evil sometimes did in sleep what it is wont to do (as also St. Augustine and Jerome among others confess),—still each one held the other in esteem, so that some, according to our teaching, were regarded as holy, without sin and full of good works, so much so that with this mind we would communicate and sell our good works to others, as being superfluous to us for heaven. This is indeed true, and seals, letters, and instances [that this happened] are at hand.

29] [When there were such, I say,] These did not need repentance. For of what would they repent, since they had not indulged wicked thoughts? What would they confess [concerning words not uttered], since they had avoided words? For what should they render satisfaction, since they were so guiltless of any deed that they could even sell their superfluous righteousness to other poor sinners? Such saints were also the Pharisees and scribes in the time of Christ.

30] Here comes the fiery angel, St. John [Rev. 10], the true preacher of [true] repentance, and with one [thunderclap and] bolt hurls both [those selling and those buying works] on one heap, and says: Repent! Matt. 3:2. 31] Now, the former [the poor wretches] imagine: Why, we have repented! The latter [the rest] say: We need no repentance. 32] John says: Repent ye, both of you, for ye are false penitents; so are these [the rest] false saints [or hypocrites], and all of you on either side need the forgiveness of sins, because neither of you know what true sin is not to say anything about your duty to repent of it and shun it. For no one of you is good; you are full of unbelief, stupidity, and ignorance of God and God's will. For here He is present of whose fulness have all we received, and grace for grace, John 1:16, and without Him no man can be just before God. Therefore, if you wish to repent, repent aright; your penance will not accomplish anything [is nothing]. And you hypocrites, who do not need repentance, you serpents' brood, who has assured you that you will escape the wrath to come? etc. Matt. 3:7; Luke 3:7.

33] In the same way Paul also preaches, Rom. 3:10-12: There is none righteous, there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God, there is none that doeth good, no not one; they are all gone out of the way; they are together become unprofitable. 34] And Acts 17:30: God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. "All men," he says; no one excepted who is a man. 35] This repentance teaches us to discern sin, namely, that we are altogether lost, and that there is nothing good in us from head to foot [both within and without], and that we must absolutely become new and other men.

36] This repentance is not piecemeal [partial] and beggarly [fragmentary], like that which does penance for actual sins, nor is it uncertain like that. For it does not debate what is or is not sin, but hurls everything on a heap, and says: All in us is nothing but sin [affirms that, with respect to us, all is simply sin (and there is nothing in us that is not sin and guilt)]. What is the use of [For why do we wish] investigating, dividing, or distinguishing a long time? For this reason, too, this contrition is not [doubtful or] uncertain. For there is nothing left with which we can think of any good thing to pay for sin, but there is only a sure despairing concerning all that we are, think, speak, or do [all hope must be cast aside in respect of everything], etc.

37] In like manner confession, too, cannot be false, uncertain, or piecemeal [mutilated or fragmentary]. For he who confesses that all in him is nothing but sin comprehends all sins, excludes none, forgets none. 38] Neither can the satisfaction be uncertain, because it is not our uncertain, sinful work, but it is the suffering and blood of the [spotless and] innocent Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

39] Of this repentance John preaches, and afterwards Christ in the Gospel, and we also. By this [preaching of] repentance we dash to the ground the Pope and everything that is built upon our good works. For all is built upon a rotten and vain foundation, which is called a good work or law, even though no good work is there, but only wicked works, and no one does the Law (as Christ, John 7:19, says), but all transgress it. Therefore the building [that is raised upon it] is nothing but falsehood and hypocrisy, even [in the part] where it is most holy and beautiful.

40] And in Christians this repentance continues until death, because, through the entire life it contends with sin remaining in the flesh, as Paul, Rom. 7:14-25, [shows] testifies that he wars with the law in his members, etc.; and that, not by his own powers, but by the gift of the Holy Ghost that follows the remission of sins. This gift daily cleanses and sweeps out the remaining sins, and works so as to render man truly pure and holy.

41] The Pope, the theologians, the jurists, and every other man know nothing of this [from their own reason], but it is a doctrine from heaven, revealed through the Gospel, and must suffer to be called heresy by the godless saints [or hypocrites].

42] On the other hand, if certain sectarists would arise, some of whom are perhaps already extant, and in the time of the insurrection [of the peasants] came to my own view, holding that all those who had once received the Spirit or the forgiveness of sins, or had become believers, even though they should afterwards sin, would still remain in the faith, and such sin would not harm them, and [hence] crying thus: "Do whatever you please; if you believe, it all amounts to nothing; faith blots out all sins," etc.—they say, besides, that if any one sins after he has received faith and the Spirit, he never truly had the Spirit and faith: I have had before me [seen and heard] many such insane men, and I fear that in some such a devil is still remaining [hiding and dwelling].

43] It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, ... and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
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JeffdlS

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:12 pm

Knowing several Catholics, I'd say Yes, they truly do repent. I think people think of TV Catholics ( Betterso some Hail Mary's before I go) when they hear someone say that they're Catholic. Sad, but true.

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eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:28 pm

JeffdlS wrote:
Knowing several Catholics, I'd say Yes, they truly do repent. I think people think of TV Catholics ( Betterso some Hail Mary's before I go) when they hear someone say that they're Catholic. Sad, but true.

I don't doubt that there are those who are truly regenerate believers in the RCC. However, as demonstrated by my previous posts, they are only this way because of God's grace and mercy in spite of what the RCC really teaches about salvation. The RCC openly denies, and even anathematizes and condemns, the idea that sinners are saved by Christ alone. That is much too serious of an issue to set aside, and if anyone, it doesn't matter if they are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc., openly denies essential doctrines as laid out by the Scripture itself, they are not Christians. And sadly, the RCC openly denies the finality of Christ's atonement, both in deed and word. I am not saying this to bash any group of people. I am saying this because sadly, this is the truth, and evangelicals who truly hold to the truth of the Scriptures and at the same time want to hold hands with Rome (in doctrinal and theological ways, I'm not saying you can't befriend Catholics), are going to have to face this issue, as I did.

And I think the term you might be looking for in regards to wishy washy Catholics, is what they like to call "cafeteria Catholics". And they are not even who I'm referring to, and I know plenty of Catholics, especially since I live in the single most Catholic state in this nation, both in the Catholic population and in the roots and heritage of where I live (the very soil my home sits on was once a part of France, and before that, Spain). It's a massive part of the culture here, and the top of the whole enchilada are even on the local news all the time, if not every day, then every week.
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Mark

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:45 pm

I wish I was patient enough to reply to all the utterly braindead BS thrown around in this thread. Neutral

eternalmystery wrote:
The RCC openly denies, and even anathematizes and condemns, the idea that sinners are saved by Christ alone.



I call for separate threads for each issue. king
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:02 pm

lord voldemort wrote:
Many of the Catholics I have met, have all been more informed on Church history and their reason of faith, than most protestants. I am talking about them quoting early church fathers, creeds, history, etc.

Many of them tend to be more educated in their faith.

very true, but they have alot of goofy things in their beleifs, but so do protestants. everyone does. and EM is right, repentance must be heartfelt, the spirit will search your heart on all levels and convict you if you let it and want it, but you have to listen to it. to me this is the meaning of repentance. the spirit truly can transform who you are if you want it to and if you allow it to. i know it has me. i'm not saying all catholics are like this, but i know alot of them i've met are, they are doing exactly what the pharisees and saducees were doing, going through the motions, but never had any heartfelt love for god, LOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL COMMANDMENTS. not all catholics are that way, but i see alot of them who are, its more of a tradition for them rather then a hearfelt relationship with god.


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eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:07 pm

Mark wrote:
I wish I was patient enough to reply to all the utterly braindead BS thrown around in this thread. Neutral

eternalmystery wrote:
The RCC openly denies, and even anathematizes and condemns, the idea that sinners are saved by Christ alone.



I call for separate threads for each issue. king

How is anything I said "B.S.", Mark? I have done enough reading of Catholic literary works and doctrine to know that nothing I said was inaccurate.

And explain these canons on justification if you don't mind, and tell me how they don't really condemn the idea that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.

Quote :
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."

Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."

Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Canon 33 is quite lovely, condemning anyone who disagrees with it.

But, from reading this, I don't see how this could not be considered condemning on the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks with me....
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Mark

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:09 pm

Read about the joint agreement made by the Lutherans and Catholics some 11 years ago.
The "faith" referred to in these anathemas is referring to pure intellectual belief alone with nothing else, if I am correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:10 pm

oh boy, everyone on this thread needs to read 2 Timothy chap. 4
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eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:12 pm

Mark wrote:
Read about the joint agreement made by the Lutherans and Catholics some 11 years ago.
The "faith" referred to in these anathemas is referring to pure intellectual belief alone with nothing else, if I am correct.

I assume you are speaking of the ECT document that came out in the mid 90s. I read parts of it, and watched theologians talk about it. It didn't really do anything.

And look up at Canon 24 of the anathemas closely. It condemns the idea that our works are just fruits and signs of one who is already justified. If that idea is wrong, then the only avenue left is works righteousness, whether you want to view it this way or not. I'm just bringing RC theology to it's logical conclusion.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:23 pm

So we shouldn't do works then, Broc? Nothing to do with our faith in Christ? At ALL?
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:44 pm

olias wrote:
So we shouldn't do works then, Broc? Nothing to do with our faith in Christ? At ALL?

A person who is justified before God, does good works, not as a way of increasing their justification because they are still unholy in God's sight, but because they love God. They do good works out of a love for God and a longing for Him, because it is the fruit and evidence of them truly being repentant and regenerate. (looks like I am anathema due to Canon 24 of Trent, but oh well)

I go out and do everything I can to help anyone and do good things. Why? Because I love God. And because I love God, I also love humanity, which is made in His image. While I do kinda get down at why humanity must continue to destroy itself, I do what I can to fix things. Why? Because I love God, of course. A person who is truly repentant and regenerate, as said earlier in this post, does these things out of love for God, not because he is threatened with purgatory or even hell for not doing them and increasing his own righteousness before God, not by what God does, but what the person does.

There is, in fact, something far more dangerous and devastating than works righteousness, and it is called cheap grace. Cheap grace is pretty much saying that even though Christ has saved a person, He doesn't have the power to regenerate and renew that person through granting him or her repentance. Cheap grace is something where no fruit, evidence, or testimony of a changed heart is shown.

Repentance is granted to us by God, not boxed into a form of religion and rituals.

I hope this answers you in regards to my position.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:17 pm

I think most Christians believe in a Christ + works setup to some degree. Choosing Christ is an action ("works"), living by biblical principles entails actions ("works"), etc. If salvation ONLY comes from Christ and entails nothing else, then why would anyone even need to repent and believe? Moreover, why are former Christians who one day say "f*ck this, f*ck God" no longer counted as saved?
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:32 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
I think most Christians believe in a Christ + works setup to some degree. Choosing Christ is an action ("works"), living by biblical principles entails actions ("works"), etc. If salvation ONLY comes from Christ and entails nothing else, then why would anyone even need to repent and believe? Moreover, why are former Christians who one day say "f*ck this, f*ck God" no longer counted as saved?

A persons does not choose God, since the Bible is clear that man is held captive to sin. God has to be the one who does everything. It's like a guy who is in handcuffs. Can he just 'choose' to take the handcuffs off? Or does someone else need to get the key to set him free?

And living by biblical principles are works, but you are failing to understand what I've been saying about this. Living by biblical principles because you are saved, is not the same as living by biblical principles because you think you have to be good to get to heaven.

Repentance and belief are both granted by God to the individual.

And people who were Christians who now deny it, never were truly saved, because think about it. How can someone one day say that the Holy Spirit is working in their life, and then turn around and deny that this event ever occured? Had it really happened, they wouldn't say that.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:09 pm

eternalmystery wrote:
olias wrote:
So we shouldn't do works then, Broc? Nothing to do with our faith in Christ? At ALL?

A person who is justified before God, does good works, not as a way of increasing their justification because they are still unholy in God's sight, but because they love God. They do good works out of a love for God and a longing for Him, because it is the fruit and evidence of them truly being repentant and regenerate. (looks like I am anathema due to Canon 24 of Trent, but oh well)

I go out and do everything I can to help anyone and do good things. Why? Because I love God. And because I love God, I also love humanity, which is made in His image. While I do kinda get down at why humanity must continue to destroy itself, I do what I can to fix things. Why? Because I love God, of course. A person who is truly repentant and regenerate, as said earlier in this post, does these things out of love for God, not because he is threatened with purgatory or even hell for not doing them and increasing his own righteousness before God, not by what God does, but what the person does.

There is, in fact, something far more dangerous and devastating than works righteousness, and it is called cheap grace. Cheap grace is pretty much saying that even though Christ has saved a person, He doesn't have the power to regenerate and renew that person through granting him or her repentance. Cheap grace is something where no fruit, evidence, or testimony of a changed heart is shown.

Repentance is granted to us by God, not boxed into a form of religion and rituals.

I hope this answers you in regards to my position.

So you believe that we preach on sunday that if you want to get to heaven, you gotta score points with the big guy upstairs by volunteering at your local soup kitchen?

eternalmystery wrote:


A persons does not choose God, since the Bible is clear that man is held captive to sin. God has to be the one who does everything. It's like a guy who is in handcuffs. Can he just 'choose' to take the handcuffs off? Or does someone else need to get the key to set him free?


You're a calvinist?
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:22 pm

olias wrote:
eternalmystery wrote:
olias wrote:
So we shouldn't do works then, Broc? Nothing to do with our faith in Christ? At ALL?

A person who is justified before God, does good works, not as a way of increasing their justification because they are still unholy in God's sight, but because they love God. They do good works out of a love for God and a longing for Him, because it is the fruit and evidence of them truly being repentant and regenerate. (looks like I am anathema due to Canon 24 of Trent, but oh well)

I go out and do everything I can to help anyone and do good things. Why? Because I love God. And because I love God, I also love humanity, which is made in His image. While I do kinda get down at why humanity must continue to destroy itself, I do what I can to fix things. Why? Because I love God, of course. A person who is truly repentant and regenerate, as said earlier in this post, does these things out of love for God, not because he is threatened with purgatory or even hell for not doing them and increasing his own righteousness before God, not by what God does, but what the person does.

There is, in fact, something far more dangerous and devastating than works righteousness, and it is called cheap grace. Cheap grace is pretty much saying that even though Christ has saved a person, He doesn't have the power to regenerate and renew that person through granting him or her repentance. Cheap grace is something where no fruit, evidence, or testimony of a changed heart is shown.

Repentance is granted to us by God, not boxed into a form of religion and rituals.

I hope this answers you in regards to my position.

So you believe that we preach on sunday that if you want to get to heaven, you gotta score points with the big guy upstairs by volunteering at your local soup kitchen?

No. We do not score points with God. We cannot. God does E V E R Y T H I N G. Our justification, our sanctification, our regeneration, etc., is all done solely by God. Any good works that we may do, only demonstrate to the outside world (note, the outside world) that we have been born again. It does not demonstrate to God that we are born again, because since He is doing all the work, I'm pretty sure He's already aware that we are saved. Razz

Quote :
eternalmystery wrote:


A persons does not choose God, since the Bible is clear that man is held captive to sin. God has to be the one who does everything. It's like a guy who is in handcuffs. Can he just 'choose' to take the handcuffs off? Or does someone else need to get the key to set him free?


You're a calvinist?

Maybe if I answer this, the answers I have previously given, and the one above will be more clear.

Yes, I am a Calvinist.
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Mark

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:26 pm

Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:12 pm

eternalmystery wrote:


No. We do not score points with God. We cannot. God does E V E R Y T H I N G. Our justification, our sanctification, our regeneration, etc., is all done solely by God. Any good works that we may do, only demonstrate to the outside world (note, the outside world) that we have been born again. It does not demonstrate to God that we are born again, because since He is doing all the work, I'm pretty sure He's already aware that we are saved. Razz


You misunderstand me. I mean, do you believe that WE believe that?
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:26 pm

Mark wrote:
Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
Well that isnt flaming at all.....
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:30 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
Mark wrote:
Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
Well that isnt flaming at all.....

It isn't.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:39 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
Mark wrote:
Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
Well that isnt flaming at all.....

Christ died for all of mankind. Not a select predistined few. What Mark said is not mockery. It is a bluntly put, but truthful observation.
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:03 pm

olias wrote:
BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
Mark wrote:
Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
Well that isnt flaming at all.....

Christ died for all of mankind. Not a select predistined few. What Mark said is not mockery. It is a bluntly put, but truthful observation.

Christ DID die for all. But, not all will be saved.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:04 pm

eternalmystery wrote:
olias wrote:
BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
Mark wrote:
Calvinism makes Christianity meaningless. What's the point of the Gospel if God is just going to pick and choose who gets saved?
Well that isnt flaming at all.....

Christ died for all of mankind. Not a select predistined few. What Mark said is not mockery. It is a bluntly put, but truthful observation.

Christ DID die for all. But, not all will be saved.

Well, that's about as clear as a glass of Coke mixed with a loving spoonful of crude oil. Elaborate?
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