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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:15 pm

Thread to discus problems with and arguments in favor of Catholicism
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:19 pm

zomg guize liek kaflix b wurshupn teh poep adn only prai 2 mary adn kaflik preeztz rap teh chuldrunz!!!!!!1
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:21 pm

Be careful what you wish for Razz
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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:24 pm

First point: The Bible used by catholics...what is it?
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Usvart Jorge

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:25 pm

Oh man, this is going to get taken down quicker than pr0n bot spam...

Anyways, my main concern. Why do the Catholics I personally know defend their faith so heavily, yet know almost nothing about the Bible and other important, yet basic things that every Christian should know.

Why do they also deny that Catholics are Christians. I thought Christianity was a HUGE umbrella that covered Protestants, Catholics, and other denominations.

Why do they tell me I'm going to hell for not believing in what they believe when in fact they can't even answer the question "have you accepted Jesus into your heart as your one and only savior" certainly?

Why do they always wear shirts with Mary and the Saints on them? If they aren't deities then why bother putting them on shirts?

I know that most of the Catholics on here are rational and extremely Bible savvy so this doesn't apply to them, but it does apply to about 98% of Catholics I personally know.
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Usvart Jorge

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:28 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
First point: The Bible used by catholics...what is it?

They use many different versions such as the New American Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible, which contain the New and Old Testaments as well as the Apocrypha which are a set of books that were deemed too historical or not inspired by God and therefore thrown out by the Protestans. These Bibles are rarely touched by people around here and one kid also was misinformed, thinking the Bible was only readable by clergymen.
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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:31 pm

Usvart Jorge wrote:
BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
First point: The Bible used by catholics...what is it?

They use many different versions such as the New American Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible, which contain the New and Old Testaments as well as the Apocrypha which are a set of books that were deemed too historical or not inspired by God and therefore thrown out by the Protestans. These Bibles are rarely touched by people around here and one kid also was misinformed, thinking the Bible was only readable by clergymen.
Excactly my point.
The word of God is meant for everyone.
Sinner.
Saint.
Liar.
Thief.
Harlot.
They all can receive God/Jesus.
They all deserve to hear his word and read it for their selves.
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mazzie

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:37 pm

this discussion better be civil. If I see any mockery or attacks on Catholicism then I will close this thread without warning.
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TheBeastSlayer

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:39 pm

mazzie wrote:
this discussion better be civil. If I see any mockery or attacks on Catholicism then I will close this thread without warning.
Ill try not to do those.
Is saying that I, MYSELF, believe the Pope to be not...ummm...correct (cant think of the correct word), would that be considered an attakc..?
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Usvart Jorge

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:42 pm

Oh yeah, another thing....

Do Catholics still believe in Purgatory? If they do, can anyone provide any scriptural evidence on its existance?
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metalgrinch

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:48 pm

Catholicism is like a religious version of Christanity, that's why it's so behavior and works based. You listen to what the Pope says and you're ok, which is why they don't know very much Bible theology, because they aren't taught that reading it is necessary, especially since priests and the pope hold all the power.
It's a religion, plain and simple.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:50 pm

All Christianity is religious and involves works. The "it's a relationship" movement and the anti-works mentality are both postmodern trends that are not biblical.
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mazzie

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:51 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
mazzie wrote:
this discussion better be civil. If I see any mockery or attacks on Catholicism then I will close this thread without warning.
Ill try not to do those.
Is saying that I, MYSELF, believe the Pope to be not...ummm...correct (cant think of the correct word), would that be considered an attakc..?

That's okay if you don't believe the Pope to be an authority figure. Back up your claim. Make legit claims yet be respectful Wink
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againsttheantichrist

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:31 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
All Christianity is religious and involves works. The "it's a relationship" movement and the anti-works mentality are both postmodern trends that are not biblical.

Define the term "works" please.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:54 pm

Catholics believe in both Church Tradition and the Bible.. equally.. or even with a tilt towards Church tradition before the Bible.

Or so I have noticed.
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Jim

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:16 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
All Christianity is religious and involves works. The "it's a relationship" movement and the anti-works mentality are both postmodern trends that are not biblical.

found this its pretty cool...

The Bible is clear. The Bible states we should examine ourselves to determine whether we are "in the faith." (2 Cor. 13:5). The "faith" that is cited in that epistle is the same faith spoken of in the statement on spiritual unity in Ephesians 4:4-6: "4- There is one body, and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5- One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6- One God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in you all." Jude 3 states, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that he should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." The only way we can get that faith is by hearing the word of God: "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).
Here is what God says we must to do be saved:
We must be born again (John 3:3-7). How does that happen?
We begin by believing the gospel, the "good news" -
"Faith comes by hearing: “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things. But they have not all obeyed the gospel for Isaiah saith Lord who has believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:14-17). The gospel is the truth: "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven; whereof ye have heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. which is come unto you as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth." (Colossians 1:5&6).
Belief must be produced by God's word in the gospel and it must as its basis and foundation believe that Christ is the divine Son of God, the only begotten of God. "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24). "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
Our belief of the truth will produce faith. Faith cannot be produced in the absence of testimony. One cannot be saved without faith. Therefore, man is saved by faith, but Christ is the Savior. It follows, then, since Christ is the Savior and we are saved by faith, that Christ is the author of our faith. He is the captain of our salvation (Heb. 2:10). Christ is the foundation of our faith and salvation; those who build their faith must build it upon the Rock (Christ) Matt. 7:24). Therefore, it is impossible to be saved without faith and the proper foundation.
As we have stated, hearing and believing the gospel produces faith. Faith is necessary but it must be coupled with the works God has commanded; otherwise the faith is dead. Note that it is God's works that must be accomplished through obedience. He has commanded that they be obeyed. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20). ‘”Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone.” (James 2:17). “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:26). These are not out works, for our works cannot save us. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (Titus 3:5). We cannot offer any work whatsoever as a means of becoming righteous before God. It is necessary to submit the conditions that God has placed in His Word, however, in order to access all that comes with salvation: forgiveness of sins, justification before God, and eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is all the work of God and we must submit to whatsoever he commands - before and after our having submitted to the gospel of Christ. Christians are to continue in those good works: "Looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).
Once we have understood our need for salvation, we must repent of our sins - in other words, repent of sin and turn away from it. This is imperative, for we must be willing to give up our old life and be prepared to walk according the new in obedience and faithfulness to Christ. "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3). "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30).
Once our belief has caused us to have faith in Christ and we have repented of our sins, we are to confess him before men: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32). Also, Mark 12:8: "Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God."
Then we must submit to water baptism in order to have our sins forgiven. In the very first sermon on the Day of Pentecost, Peter was asked by those who became fearfully aware of their sinful condition as to what they had to do in order to be saved. Notice they asked, "Men and brethren what shall we DO?" (Acts 2:37). Peter makes it very, very clear in verse 38: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." There are two works therein that God has commanded: repentance and baptism. Notice the purpose of baptism is for remission (forgiveness) of sins. How important is this critical step? Christ stated before his return to heaven to the apostles: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Indeed, he gave the clear commands to his apostles regarding repentance and remission of sins: "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47). That is exactly what began on the Day of Pentecost. In Mark 16:15&16 we read, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Many assert baptism is not essential for salvation. Some go so far as stating we are to obey that command after we have been saved. But, consider this. Jesus Christ commands it as a condition of salvation. Salvation means we are saved from our sins. We have already seen that belief of the gospel is necessary. So is faith in Christ as the Son of God. So is faith in his words and commandments. Obedience is necessary if our faith is to be acceptable to Christ. Christ would not have emphasized baptism as a condition of salvation if such were not vitally important to the forgiveness of our sins. Baptism is the work of God that he commands all who will be saved to obey. Consider the following inspired verses:
"Which sometime were disobedient when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God." (2 Peter 3:20-21).
"And with many other words did he testify and exhort saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:41-42).
Then note that the "Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47). Those who obeyed the gospel and were baptized were added to the church by the Lord himself. They did not join nor were they voted in. There is no example of a sinner's prayer to accept Christ into their heart. We only see believers accepting God's terms and becoming submissive and obedient to those terms. As we have seen, Christ is the head of the church and he is the one who determines who is saved.
Finally, it is important to note that even the saved have to do something. They must be faithful unto death. Faithful to Christ, to his will, doctrine, and to the faith we read of in Jude, verse 3. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12).
"But the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit and they that worship must worship him in spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23-24).
"Fear not those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison that ye may be tried: and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev. 2:10). Also, see Rev. 3:21; Matthew 7:21-23.
I encourage you to seek out that salvation in Christ and be added to the church Christ founded through obedience of the gospel.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:27 pm

You Catholic, Jim?
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Jim

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:32 pm

olias wrote:
You Catholic, Jim?

no chance, does that excerpt suggest that?
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:21 pm

It is quite orthodox actually.
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BryneVampyr

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:01 am

Usvart Jorge wrote:

Why do they always wear shirts with Mary and the Saints on them? If they aren't deities then why bother putting them on shirts

Wow...let's see...I have band t-shirts...does that mean that I think the band is a deity? I have seen t-shirts with Martin Luther on them...are you going to accuse Lutherans of worshiping Martin Luther?

No Catholic that I know thinks that Mary or any of the saints are deities.

Also, the Catholics that I know do read their Bibles...and they do know the scripture. Much of what I hear being taught on EWTN (Catholic TV) is stuff that I have heard all my life in protestant churches. Specifically, that we need to read the Bible to understand how God thinks, that we need a personal relationship with Christ, stuff like that...

Of course, there are things that I seriously disagree with (otherwise, I would be a Catholic)...but I often find myself having more in common with Catholics than with Protestants.
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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:28 am

I read the Apocrypha in college. I find "Bel and the Dragon" to be quite interesting, but I've always had a special interest of biblical references to "dinosaurs". Creationism anyone?

Catholic, Protestant... I don't think it really matters. I truly believe Christ isn't going to deny anyone who truly seeks him, regardless of what's in the fine print of our religious doctrines, beliefs or traditions.

I couldn't help by thing of the Peter Scholtes song used as hymns in many churches, and that it doesn't say, "They'll know we are Christians by our doctrine". In fact, we'll be known for our love.

Personally, I prefer not to even have a grotesquely detailed credence. My experience with that is too wishy-washy. I believe a certain thing, until I hear a more appealing / better suiting / better explained details to something which isn't REALLY that important. Not to mention, all of this ultimately leads me to analysis paralysis anyway...

I'll just stick with spirituality and my core faith, thank you very much, and utilize my faith rather than analyze it.

This applies to anyone and any organized religion/spirituality, but I choose to focus on our similarities, not our differences.
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eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:00 am

As far as anything that defines what or who is Christian, the Bible is that guideline. Christian is whatever the Bible defines as Christian, not denominationalism or whatever.

However, in regards to Catholicism, there are serious problems (*this is not an attack. I don't know why I have to explain this, but bear in mind, I am not attacking any person or group of people*).

First of all, to clear up some issues, a lot of times when Protestants and Catholics get together to discuss certain issues, they focus on stuff that is non-essential to being a Christian. Marian dogma, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and some other things, while I personally don't believe them to be true due to having no basis in the Scriptures, are NOT the issue that separates both groups. The issues that have separated and will keep both groups separated, are: Sola Fide, and Sola Scriptura.

Sola Fide, in other words, is justification by faith alone. It means that Christ's work, performed on the cross, His death and resurrection, is in itself sufficient to save sinners. Nothing we can do on our own is required since the debt has been paid in full. It is Christ who does the work, it is Christ who pleads our case before God, and it is Christ who justifies us and declares us righteous in the eyes of God solely by faith.

Sola Scriptura is a Latin term meaning "scripture alone". It means that the Bible is the sole authority in all rules of faith, conduct, and doctrine.

Roman Catholicism denies sola fide (justification by faith alone) by saying that the person must work long and labor hard in order to obtain justification. In other words, this is how Catholicism's salvation teaching works: God infuses a little bit of grace into you at baptism (this is why baptism, especially infant baptism, is absolutely required, because the grace of justification in Catholicism is infused into a person), and throughout your life, you cooperate with God in a joint effort with your good works to make this little bit of grace grow inside of your soul and make you holy. Every time you go to Mass, say the Rosary, do penance, etc., you get more infused grace (this is why some extremely hardcore catholics go to church 7 days a week). If you commit any sins, venial or mortal, you are made to do penance. Penance is pretty much works and exercises prescribed by the priest that you are commanded to do in order to become right with God. Mortal sins kill the justifying grace inside of you (which is why it is called mortal), and sets you back at zero. If, however, you die in a state of grace and are 'stained' by venial sins, you go to purgatory, where you purge away the venial sins which kept you out of heaven.

To anyone who has actually read all of Romans 4 and Galatians 3, can you honestly see how this blatantly contradicts the Scriptures in this regard? The Bible declares plainly that justification is solely done by God through faith alone in Christ. The impossibility of the Roman Catholic position on salvation is made clear throughout the New Testament.

Why is this a serious issue? Because here is the logical, inevitable conclusion of the Roman position. They are outwardly saying, even if they don't intend to, that the sacrifice performed by Christ on the cross, in and of itself, actually does not save a single person at all. That is about as serious as it gets. This is why in Roman Catholicism, assurance of salvation pretty much doesn't exist, even though the Bible declares that it does, because if your salvation is dependent on your own works and behavior, how would you ever know if you were even truly faithful?

Now some people will stop and say "But they do say it's all by God's grace though", and they do. I will not deny this one bit. But this is the question that needs to be asked - In regards to the Catholic position on salvation, do any of the works we do contribute to our salvation, or do they not? It is clear from official Vatican documents and doctrinal statements (such as the Council of Trent, and even their modern Catechism) that our religious, human, finite works contribute to our salvation, and this is serious.

Rome also denies sola scriptura, and holds to a scripture and church view. Basically, the Roman Catholic church holds itself up as the supreme authority in all matters, and holds itself up as the true interpreter of the Bible. This of course fails utterly because the RCC has several times, in both the past and the present, made declarations about things they said the scriptures taught which were in blatant contradiction to the CLEAR teaching of the Bible.

As far as whether Catholics are Christians or not, I will post a link. It's pretty much what I want to say, though I feel as if I say it, I will be misunderstood.


http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/are-roman-catholics-christian

Quote :
Are Roman Catholics Christian?

Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errors in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.

The official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that the grace of God is infused into a baby at baptism -- making him/her justified before God.1 This justification can be lost through sin and must be regained by repeated participation in the many sacraments found in the Roman Catholic Church. These sacraments increase the measure of grace in the person by which he or she is enabled to do good works which are in turn rewarded with the joy of heaven:

* "We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (CCC, par. 1821).
* "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010).

No one can say whether a Roman Catholic is truly a Christian or not since we cannot know people's hearts. But, if anyone, Catholic included, openly denies essential doctrines2 then he is not saved, and this is the problem. It appears that the Roman Catholic church is denying the essential doctrine of justification by faith. It says...

* "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Canon 9, Council of Trent).
* "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Canon 14, Council of Trent).
* For more on this, please see Council of Trent. Canons on Justification.

Notice that justification by faith alone is denied and heaven is the reward for doing good works. This is the problem. The RCC does not teach the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. It teaches justification by faith and works. If you want to see more on this, go to The Roman Catholic view on justification.
So, what is the CARM position on Roman Catholics?

CARM's position is simple. If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel. They need to hear that they are not made right before God by being in a church, or by being baptized, but by receiving Christ (John 1:12), believing that Jesus has risen from the dead (Rom. 10:9), and that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1) and not by our deeds (Rom. 4:5). It is only true faith that results in true works (James 2), not the other way around. Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.

Jesus alone saves. Jesus alone is Lord. Only Jesus' sacrifice can cleanse us. Only by faith are we made right before God. Justification is by faith, not by anything we do.
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The Last Firstborn

The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:19 am

Buuut... If they believe they would have no chance in the world to be saved if it weren't for Christ, then wouldn't their salvation still be through Christ alone (regardless of what all their perception of "salvation" entails)?
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eternalmystery

eternalmystery

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:58 am

LastFirstborn wrote:
Buuut... If they believe they would have no chance in the world to be saved if it weren't for Christ, then wouldn't their salvation still be through Christ alone (regardless of what all their perception of "salvation" entails)?

Whether or not anyone believes that their salvation wouldn't be possible without Christ is sort of missing the point of this particular issue that separates both groups.

I can say that I wouldn't have a chance to play gigs with Eternal Mystery if it wasn't for Josh joining up, because I don't wanna do it alone, and having done this alone for the past 2 years, it gets boring. But even though I wouldn't be able to do this without Josh or anyone else, I am still a part of the whole picture. If I said it was Josh ALONE that played gigs and recorded for ExMx, then that would be kinda wrong due to the fact that I record guitars, bass, and drums during recording, and he does the vocals recording and the bass live. Neither one of us is alone in regards to ExMx, as we both take an active part in the band.

Same goes for Catholicism. Even if they do say that it is by God's grace that they are saved, and that their salvation would not be possible without Christ (which they do in fact claim, I will not deny that), they still believe that they must take an active part in their salvation in cooperation with God. So, in the process of justification and sanctification in Catholicism, is God ALONE doing the work? No, because someone else is also sort of "helping out". Is the person being justified doing this ALONE? No, because God is said to be helping out.

So, since the RCC very blatant denies (and even condemns) the idea that God alone justifies sinners without any addition made by humans in the form of works, these are the logical questions and conclusive answers:

- Does God alone take part in a persons salvation in RC teaching? No. Reason? A persons must do outward works and exercises in order to help God in the justification process.

- Does a person alone take part in their salvation in RC teaching? No. Reason? God is said to help the person along by infusing more and more grace into them.

- In RC teaching, is the sacrifice of Christ alone sufficient and in and of itself powerful enough to save a person? No. Reason? If the sacrifice Christ made does not fully cleanse a person and make them righteous in God's sight due to Christ's work, then a person must work, either alone or in cooperation with God, to obtain the level of righteousness that they must attain to be declared holy. The RC teaching is, in fact, that a person must work in cooperation with God to obtain salvation. Therefore, the logical conclusion follows that Christ's work is insufficient according to RC theology.

So, even if they claim that God alone is responsible for salvation, this claim is pretty much worthless in regards to what the RCC actually teaches about salvation. If God alone is the one doing everything, then our works would not be needed in any way, shape, or form.

I hope that answers what you were asking.
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wizardovmetal

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PostSubject: Re: Catholicism   Catholicism Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:16 am

ill say this about the importance of faith in our salvation, we are justified by our faith in christ ALONE, our works WILL NOT save us. abraham was justified by his faith in god, christ says he who overcomes is he who beleives in christ. plain and simple. do we need to do works? absolutley, its about REPENTANCE, which means realizing what youve done is wrong, asking for forgivness, then working very hard to change. closeness to god, the fruits of the spirit, and faith is what sets you apart, this is the seal upon us.
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