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 "End time" claim made by Wizard

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BryneVampyr

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:32 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
well how do you view it

Figuratively

I don't believe that there will be a literal 1000 year reign. I don't believe that there will be a literal 7 year tribulation. Stuff like that.
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:35 pm

BryneVampyr wrote:
wizardovmetal wrote:
well how do you view it

Figuratively

I don't believe that there will be a literal 1000 year reign. I don't believe that there will be a literal 7 year tribulation. Stuff like that.

Would you fall under a form of covenant eschatology? They, as I understand it, apply a more spiritual aspect to it, versus a physical interpretation like Disponsationalism or Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, etc.

Figuratively it is spiritual, not physical.
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BryneVampyr

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:46 pm

I don't think so...I definitely reject dispensationalism, but convenant doesn't sound right...though maybe...I will have to look into it.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:12 am

so we can basically conclude that anyone one who is a muslim has the mark of the beast then?
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:41 am

so basically, at this time, we are entering chapter 17 of revelation?
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olias

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:31 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
so we can basically conclude that anyone one who is a muslim has the mark of the beast then?

"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 786961
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:54 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
so we can basically conclude that anyone one who is a muslim has the mark of the beast then?

The mark of the beast, seems to be specific for the Ottoman Empire.

Islam by its own "theology" is a religion that opposes Christianity. They have several Koranic Verses that state that "God has no Son", so by that statement, it fits under the defintion of antichrist proposed by the Epistle of John:

1Jn 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:56 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
so basically, at this time, we are entering chapter 17 of revelation?

No chap. 17 is the defeat of the Beast and False Prophet. Chap. 18 is about the beast from the Abyss. Chap. 19 is about the defeat of the Beast and False Prophet. Chap. 20 is about the sealing and releasing and defeating of the Beast from the Abyss.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:00 pm

so then 18...or possibly 19...
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:38 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
so then 18...or possibly 19...

Revelation is not a linear book, you cannot say we are in 18 yesterday and 19 today, because the previous chapter maybe referring to something that has all ready happen.

Look closely to what i said in the previous post.

Chap. 17 is the Beast and False Prophet, defeated in Chap. 19. We are awaiting chap. 18 (The Beast from the Abyss). Chap. 19 already happened. We are in Chap. 20, what is called the "1000 year reign", waiting for the Dragon to be released from the abyss, which is seen in Chap. 9. An act from the Beast from the Abyss is seen in Chap. 11, yet Chap. 20 gives a more detailed event of it.

Revelation as you can see is not linear.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:05 pm

oh i see
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:23 pm

There is a pattern to the book, but i need to spend more time to figure out that pattern.

If you have any more questions, feel free to post them, they do not have to be on end times, but anything you run into that you want a second opinion on.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:44 pm

yea thanks alot for taking the time to explain all of this stuff to me i really appreciate it, and you seem pretty knowledgable on things

secondly, i have no idea if this has anything to do with revelations, but when i was a member of the joy of satan group, the high priestess told me all the demons were bound and had little to no power, but she and a bunch of others in the higher ups went onto the astral plane (spiritual world) and released all of them in 2004
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BryneVampyr

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:54 pm

"...an important clue to interpreting the book of Revelation correctly
is to notice its use of different visions covering the same period: the
New Testament era beginning with Pentecost and culminating on the last
day. We can see, for example, that Rev 12:7–11 and Rev 20:1–6 are parallel
in several ways. Revelation 12:7 and 20:1 are both heavenly scenes; Rev
12:7–8 and 20:2 depict angelic battles with Satan; Rev 12:9 and 20:2 portray
Satan as “the great dragon…that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan”;
Rev 12:12 and 20:3 speak of Satan as having a “short time”; Rev 12:10 and
20:4 tell of how Satan’s defeat results in the kingdom of Christ and His
saints; and finally, Rev 12:11 and 20:4 describe the faithfulness of the saints.
Thus, Revelation 12 and 20:1–7 depict the same events and mutually interpret
one another.

We find another example of how John gives a series of visions that
depict the present age from different vantage points in Revelation 6 and 16.
In Rev 6:12–14 John says, “every mountain and island was moved out of its
place,” while in Rev 16:20 he writes, “every island fled away and the
mountains could not be found.” The question then is this: If every mountain
and island were moved in chapter six, how can they be back again in
chapter sixteen? The answer (apart from its clearly symbolic language) is
that Revelation is structured around parallel visions and is not a historical
narrative that describes sequences that chronologically occur one after
another. This writing style evident in Revelation chapters 6–20 is sometimes
called “recapitulation,” in which the same basic pattern is repeated
in a variety of formulations.

The book of Revelation contains six different descriptions of the same
era, the era of the New Testament church stretching from the day of Pentecost
until the Last Day. They are as follows: the seven seals (6:1–8:5); the
seven trumpets (8:6–11:19); the vision of the church preserved against
Satan’s assaults (12:1–14:20); the seven bowls (15:1–16:21); the vision of
Babylon overthrown (17:1–19:21); and the binding of Satan (20:1–10). Each
vision gives a different picture of the same time period. The visions are
synonymous, albeit with growing intensity. This repetition in the book of
Revelation does not exclude a deepening and completing progression in
the visions, for judgment builds (as does the terror). Yet Christ is in control
and has the last word, victory for His church."


- excerpt from "A Lutheran Response to the Left Behind Series"

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf
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Kamerad Ash

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:17 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
yea thanks alot for taking the time to explain all of this stuff to me i really appreciate it, and you seem pretty knowledgable on things

secondly, i have no idea if this has anything to do with revelations, but when i was a member of the joy of satan group, the high priestess told me all the demons were bound and had little to no power, but she and a bunch of others in the higher ups went onto the astral plane (spiritual world) and released all of them in 2004

You have no idea high interesting that statement is to me.

In 2004, myself and my spiritual brothers all felt as if a great darkness had entered the world.. as if as it is described in scripture " the destroyer was released from the bottomless pit" - paraphrasing.

We as Christians all felt the world around us change in a big way.. spiritually. Sort of the begining of a new age of darkness... maybe the last age of darkness..
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Kamerad Ash

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:21 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
oh i see

That is because visions are always seen outside of the realm of Time. I say this beaus I had a vision once.. and quite a vision it was indeed. It was for myself though and nothing to share. But it also was from a vantage point of eternity looking at events.. not form a vantage point of Time looking at the future.

IT always made me think of the scriptural Revelations after I had it and it put a new perspective on the subject, for me.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:05 am

esoterically speaking, vision happen on the astral plane (spirit world) this place is outside of the dimensions of time, it is, an alter dimension, the physical world is directly affected by what goes on there and vice versa

and very interesting to hear about that...very
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:44 pm

BryneVampyr wrote:
"...an important clue to interpreting the book of Revelation correctly
is to notice its use of different visions covering the same period: the
New Testament era beginning with Pentecost and culminating on the last
day. We can see, for example, that Rev 12:7–11 and Rev 20:1–6 are parallel
in several ways. Revelation 12:7 and 20:1 are both heavenly scenes; Rev
12:7–8 and 20:2 depict angelic battles with Satan; Rev 12:9 and 20:2 portray
Satan as “the great dragon…that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan”;
Rev 12:12 and 20:3 speak of Satan as having a “short time”; Rev 12:10 and
20:4 tell of how Satan’s defeat results in the kingdom of Christ and His
saints; and finally, Rev 12:11 and 20:4 describe the faithfulness of the saints.
Thus, Revelation 12 and 20:1–7 depict the same events and mutually interpret
one another.

We find another example of how John gives a series of visions that
depict the present age from different vantage points in Revelation 6 and 16.
In Rev 6:12–14 John says, “every mountain and island was moved out of its
place,” while in Rev 16:20 he writes, “every island fled away and the
mountains could not be found.” The question then is this: If every mountain
and island were moved in chapter six, how can they be back again in
chapter sixteen? The answer (apart from its clearly symbolic language) is
that Revelation is structured around parallel visions and is not a historical
narrative that describes sequences that chronologically occur one after
another. This writing style evident in Revelation chapters 6–20 is sometimes
called “recapitulation,” in which the same basic pattern is repeated
in a variety of formulations.

The book of Revelation contains six different descriptions of the same
era, the era of the New Testament church stretching from the day of Pentecost
until the Last Day. They are as follows: the seven seals (6:1–8:5); the
seven trumpets (8:6–11:19); the vision of the church preserved against
Satan’s assaults (12:1–14:20); the seven bowls (15:1–16:21); the vision of
Babylon overthrown (17:1–19:21); and the binding of Satan (20:1–10). Each
vision gives a different picture of the same time period. The visions are
synonymous, albeit with growing intensity. This repetition in the book of
Revelation does not exclude a deepening and completing progression in
the visions, for judgment builds (as does the terror). Yet Christ is in control
and has the last word, victory for His church."


- excerpt from "A Lutheran Response to the Left Behind Series"

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf

If you want a book that goes into more historical detail of how the "rapture" came about and the Church's historical position on the end times, I would recommend "The Blessed Hope" By George Eldon Ladd. He presents the historical post-tribulational-premil view.
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wizardovmetal

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:57 pm

just to throw this out there there is no rapture and all the verses that may make even the slightest hint about it have already come to pass
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olias

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:06 pm

Well, we finally agree on something then Jon Smile
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lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:39 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
just to throw this out there there is no rapture and all the verses that may make even the slightest hint about it have already come to pass

The Rapture, I believe is a Heresy, as in the Pre-Trib Rapture of Dispensationalism and Pre-Tribulationalism, etc.

It can be traced back to a man named John Darby, who introduced it to the US in the 1800's via the Plymouth Brethren Movement and it was picked up and popularized by Cyrus Scofield's Reference Bible.

It deceived many people, but many of them started to investigate it and found it to be unbiblical, and many of them became its major opponents. This can be seen in the book The Blessed Hope by George Eldon Ladd.

The Article by BryneVampyr can also attest to that as well, that there is a major problem with Pre-Trib Rapture.

The "safest" position to hold would be Historical Post-Tribulational-Pre-Millennial view. Though I disagree with it, my view is similar enough to it, where it is compatible. We both believe the tribulation will happen and the Church will go through it, we both believe that the Second coming of Christ will happen afterward, that he will establish his kingdom afterward, etc. My view just disagrees on the kingdom being eternal vs 1,000 years. Satan and Judgment happen before it, they believe it happens after the "1,000 years".

I believe the Millennial is Enmilennial (En means: is a Prefix that causes a person to be in) vs Amilennial (where the is no milennial reign). They on the other hand believe it to be future.

Enmillennial as I stated is the belief that those who were killed by the Beast and False Prophet are reigning with Christ now, while we continue to live on, awaiting the second coming of Christ, which for us, in the literal sense, we are living in an Amilennial time period, we do not experience it.
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lord voldemort

lord voldemort

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:29 pm

Kamerad Ash wrote:
wizardovmetal wrote:
yea thanks alot for taking the time to explain all of this stuff to me i really appreciate it, and you seem pretty knowledgable on things

secondly, i have no idea if this has anything to do with revelations, but when i was a member of the joy of satan group, the high priestess told me all the demons were bound and had little to no power, but she and a bunch of others in the higher ups went onto the astral plane (spiritual world) and released all of them in 2004

You have no idea high interesting that statement is to me.

In 2004, myself and my spiritual brothers all felt as if a great darkness had entered the world.. as if as it is described in scripture " the destroyer was released from the bottomless pit" - paraphrasing.

We as Christians all felt the world around us change in a big way.. spiritually. Sort of the begining of a new age of darkness... maybe the last age of darkness..

What does that even mean, can you clarify it and put some substance to it, I have no idea what you are talking about here. So if you can clarify it, that would be good.
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BryneVampyr

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:16 am

lord voldemort wrote:
I believe the Millennial is Enmilennial (En means: is a Prefix that causes a person to be in) vs Amilennial (where the is no milennial reign). They on the other hand believe it to be future.

Enmillennial as I stated is the belief that those who were killed by the Beast and False Prophet are reigning with Christ now, while we continue to live on, awaiting the second coming of Christ, which for us, in the literal sense, we are living in an Amilennial time period, we do not experience it.

The Amillennial view point is sometimes referred to as "realized millennialism". We believe that we are living in the millennial kingdom right now, as it was realized (or began) when Christ ascended to the heaven. So, I would disagree with your statement that we are living in an Amillenial time period because we do not experience it...as I believe that we are experiencing it.

It is called amillenialism because we don't believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom, but rather believe that the "1000 years" is to be understood figuratively.

Similarly, we believe that we are currently in the tribulation period, as well, and that also started at the beginning of the church and will continue until the second coming of Christ.


ETA: btw...I looked up covenent eschatology, and everything I found seemed to indicate that they are preterists. I am not a preterist, however, some of their beliefs were similar to mine.
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againsttheantichrist

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:22 am

Bryne, while the sequence of Revelations is not what the public would like to believe, there is still a sequence. Revelation clearly indicates the Millennium (whether understood figuratively or literally) as an event that occurs after the tribulation.
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BryneVampyr

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"End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Vide
PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   "End time" claim made by Wizard - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:38 am

againsttheantichrist wrote:
Bryne, while the sequence of Revelations is not what the public would like to believe, there is still a sequence. Revelation clearly indicates the Millennium (whether understood figuratively or literally) as an event that occurs after the tribulation.

Since men who make it a career of studying the Bible, and are sincere, Bible believing, Christians disagree on this issue, I would challenge your claim that Revelation CLEARLY indicates that the millennium occurs after the tribulation. To those on my side of the issue it certainly seems clear that the Bible teaches that the tribulation and the millennium are parallel events...not sequential events . Men of good faith can come to different conclusions, even though we read and study the same Bible.

I will research this particular issue further and post exactly why my church teaches as they do...though I have studied it, I don't know enough to argue my position well on my own.
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