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wizardovmetal

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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:18 pm

i must say lord voldemort is truly wise on these matters, i was simply repeating what i was told though
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lord voldemort

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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:56 pm

I have studied this for awhile, thanks for the comment Smile
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:06 pm

what books inspire you Lord V?
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:03 pm

I read a lot of history books, so I have a good understanding of history. So my view of the end times comes from my understanding of the bible and of history.

What inspired me was my historical search of the seven empires, I did a paper on it, trying to understand what, historically, the seventh empire could be. Most tended to about speculation, than actual history.

For example the Rome Theory, that some how Rome is the sixth, seventh and eighth empire. Yet most of them will dismiss the eighth empire altogether, trying to force the Beast and False Prophet as the seventh and final one, yet Rev. 17 specifies there are eight.

Since Rome is six, than the Beast and False Prophet must be the seventh. Historically, than, it must have followed the Roman Empire. As Rome conquered Greece, and Greece conquered Persia, than an empire must have conquered the Roman Empire.

At the time of the paper, I did not know what that empire was, until a few years later, God led me to two books about the Ottoman Empire, when i started to read those books, Revelation made more sense.

Then I noticed that they conquered the Byzantine Empire, the same way Greece took over Persia, and Rome took over Greece. Than I noticed, no empire overcame them, and they were broken into nation states. Thus seven consecutive empires.

Osman's Dream: The History of the Ottoman Empire by Caroline Finkel
Ottoman Centuries by Lord Kinross

These are the two books.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:56 pm

i found the most fantastic source of end times information, i myself cant see how anyone could possibly argue with this AT ALL im begging you please please check this out, its not theory, its not speculation. http://www.realtruth.org/wtc_029_090918.html

LV your close, extremely, but have your mark of the beast somewhat mixed up
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:09 pm

I don't want to be a douche, but Wizard, you have a rather annoying habit of putting forth what you believe as fact as being undisputably fact. That is a logical fallacy known as a bare assertion fallacy, and you do it a l o t.

Fact 1: X claims statement A.
Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying.
Conclusion: Therefore, A is true.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:41 pm

olias wrote:
I don't want to be a douche, but Wizard, you have a rather annoying habit of putting forth what you believe as fact as being undisputably fact. That is a logical fallacy known as a bare assertion fallacy, and you do it a l o t.

Fact 1: X claims statement A.
Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying.
Conclusion: Therefore, A is true.

Hate to say it, but olias has a point. Half of the stuff you post (OK....more like 99.999% of posts you've made) has absolutely zero evidence in support of what you're saying. Or the little evidence you do provide is not credible.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:43 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
i found the most fantastic source of end times information, i myself cant see how anyone could possibly argue with this AT ALL im begging you please please check this out, its not theory, its not speculation. http://www.realtruth.org/wtc_029_090918.html

LV your close, extremely, but have your mark of the beast somewhat mixed up
interesting video, i'll have to watch teh rest of the parts later, but I don't see why he thinks the microchip isnt a possibility

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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:36 pm

The mark of the beast, in the right hand or on their forehead, is the same phrase that is mentioned in the OT:

Deu 11:18 "You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand (generally right hand), and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

This is what the mark means.

Rev 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Interesting to note, the word beast means, in biblical symbolism is Empire. Therefore, this is about the name of the empire and the name is that of a man, thus why the word "His" is mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osman_I

Notice the first paragraph.

Also notice this:

Osman I, the founder of the Ottoman Empire has a dream:

{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_of_Ottoman_Empire}
Osman saw himself and his host reposing near each other. From the bosom of Edebali rose the full moon, and inclining towards the bosom of Osman it sank upon it, and was lost to sight. After that a goodly tree sprang forth, which grew in beauty and in strength, ever greater and greater. Still did the embracing verdure of its boughs and branches cast an ampler and an ampler shade, until they canopied the extreme horizon of the three parts of the world. Under the tree stood four mountains, which he knew to be Caucasus, Atlas,Taurus, and Haemus (Balkans). These mountains were the four columns that seemed to support the dome of the foliage of the sacred tree with which the earth was now centered. From the roots of the tree gushed forth four rivers, the Tigris, the Euphrates, the Danube, and the Nile. Tall ships and barks innumerable were on the waters. The fields were heavy with harvest. The mountain sides were clothed with forests. Thence in exulting and fertilizing abundance sprang fountains and rivulets that gurgled through thickets of the cypress and the rose. In the valleys glittered stately cities, with domes and cupolas, with pyramids and obelisk, with minarets and towers. The Crescent shone on their summits: from their galleries sounded the Muezzin’s call to prayer. That sound was mingled with the sweet voices of a thousand nightingales, and with the prattling of countless parrots of every hue. Every kind of singing bird was there. The winged multitude warbled and flitted around beneath the fresh living roof of the interlacing branches of the all-overarching tree; and every leaf of that tree was in shape like unto a scimitar. Suddenly there arose a mighty wind, and turned the points of the sword-leaves towards the various cities of the world, but especially towards Constantinople. That city, placed at the junction of two seas and two continents, seemed like a diamond set between two sapphires and two emeralds, to form the most precious stone in a ring of universal empire. Osman thought that he was in the act of placing that visional ring on his finger, when he awoke.

The Ottoman Empire:
“A People who saw themselves not simply as Turks—A name associated with the inhabitants of Turkestan in general—But Osmanlis, followers of Osman, they nevertheless possessed, in these early days, few qualities distinct from those of their Turkish neighbours. Theirs was simply one among the ten successor-states which survived from the Seljuk Empire and the Mongol protectorate—and still one of the smallest.” (Lord Kinross: The Ottoman Centuries: The rise and fall of the Turkish Empire. Pg 25)
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:15 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
i found the most fantastic source of end times information, i myself cant see how anyone could possibly argue with this AT ALL im begging you please please check this out, its not theory, its not speculation. http://www.realtruth.org/wtc_029_090918.html

LV your close, extremely, but have your mark of the beast somewhat mixed up

No I do not have it mixed up, the bible states that the mark is not a literal mark. I do not see how my view is close to his view, his Euro-centered, mine is Ottoman centered.

He makes this claim that the "Holy Roman Empire is apart of the Roman Empire", here is my thoughts on that: "The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an empire" Voltaire.

I will admit he has a good historical back ground on his view.

He has good rhetoric, and is a good speaker, would make a good politician.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:42 pm

I found this about David C. Pack.

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/pack.htm
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:07 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
i found the most fantastic source of end times information, i myself cant see how anyone could possibly argue with this AT ALL im begging you please please check this out, its not theory, its not speculation. http://www.realtruth.org/wtc_029_090918.html

LV your close, extremely, but have your mark of the beast somewhat mixed up

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you need to be more careful on your claims and sources, this guy is from a splinter group from Herbert Armstrong, he endorses what is called "British-israelitism" in which Western Europe and America are the lost tribes of Israel.

It sounds good and the history they present on the surface looks good. It is a racist ideology. I read a lot of what they have written, and as i said, it looks good. Until you start to do the history yourself and it keeps coming up short. They display it well, and they present a logic to it, but look closely, it is just a ball of yarn ready to fall apart.

I can argue his points and counter them with my own.

I showed one point above. There is no connection between the Holy Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire that collapsed in 400's C.E.

Just because someone uses the words Roman and Empire, does not mean that is what it really is. It is a type of fallacy. It would be like me saying to you "You are the dog" but because I used the word "dog" according to their logic, you are a dog because they are trying to associate the word to the literal dog. So they are doing with the Holy Roman Empire or any other European government.

The other problem is, Every empire in the bible controlled the land of Israel. Egypt controlled it several times, Assyria controlled it, Babylon controlled it, Persia did, Macedonia did, Rome (West and East), none of the empires that he mentioned ever controlled the land of Israel. The powers that did during that time were either Byzantine or Muslim rule:

Roman rule (63 BCE)
Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) rule (330–640 CE)
Arab Caliphate rule (638–1099 CE)
Umayyad rule (661–750 CE)
Fatimid rule (969–1099 CE)
Crusader rule (1099–1187 CE) (It was not really controlled by the European powers, it was its own independent state.)
Mamluk rule (1270–1516 CE)
Ottoman rule (1516–1831 CE)
Egyptian rule (1831–1841)
Ottoman rule (1841–1917)
British Mandate (1920–1948) (conquest of war, before turning it over to be self governed).

Europe has not controlled the land of Israel for almost 1700 years, at least not directly, when it did, it gave it up like the British Mandate. But the Brits broke up the Ottoman Empire and was in the process of forming nations out of it, not keeping it under rule. The reason they held on it for as long as they did, was because of World War II, they did not wanting them siding with Hitler, which many of the states did support.

Case in point, the Baath Party was a splinter group of the Nazi party, just an Arab version of it. http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/baath.html

He is forming his argument around smoke and mirrors, they look good, but in reality you are looking at a bad croon.

If you want to prove me, take a point, any point that he said, and I will test it out.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:41 pm

i must say what he teaches about salvation, the kingdom of god, etc is VERY VERY good and is presenting the true message of what the bible is talking about on such matters. sadly, many christian churches today have tottaly lost the point of what it is.

and lord V you hit the nail on the head about the mark. no one with true understanding with the bible would ever suggest a chip or any type of physical mark that would make god so angry as to destroy them in a lake of fire, thats rediculous


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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:44 pm

I have not listened to that about him.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:53 pm

well he preaches contrary to popular christian beleif that christ is coming to restore gods kingdom on earth, thats the jist of it, sadly most christians have a completly unbiblical concept of salvation, thinking that when you die if your "good and beleive in jesus" you go to heaven for eternity, this is not so, i found this out long before i even studied what this guy said just by reading the bible. i mean seriously, even the bible says no man has ever ascended into heaven secondly it talks about resurection and rebirth not as the common beleif of "being saved to not go tohell" or a fictional place of eternal fire, but DEATH being tottaly destroyed in the lake of fire. rebirth occurs when resurected in the spirit. the bible says, no flesh can enter the kingdom of god you must be reborn, think, what does this mean? not what most people think. and yes i have presented some outrageous stuff before that is ludicris, but also know, chosing to not follow god comes with him giving me over to strong delusion so that i might beleive my own lie (referenced in the bible) im not blind anymore, ever since i have come back to god i have truly felt the power of his holy spirit guiding me and nudging me, convicting me of several things, so much as that i ended up deleting $500 dollars worth of music from my pc because i was convicted to listen to only christian music, and yes i wrestled with this wanting to keep it, but i knew it wasnt what god wanted from me. my eyes for once have been opened and i SEE the world tottally differently, i see salvation differently, i see god in a new light. this is the strongest i have ever been spiritually in my entire life.

i have allowed the holy spirit to guide me into whats right on there and what isnt, so far what ive found that isnt right is his moronic theory that the letters written to the 7 churches were eras not churches first off, there is historical evidence for the different churches, secondly that sounds really new ageish and goofy. another thing i dont beleive is that there is only one church of christ and that is HIS church, that is rediculous. while many churches are very misled, their church is not 100% correct either. i do agree though with his idea of the great whore being a deceptive church system that teaches a false doctrine, im not going into my opinions on this because i will only piss people off, but it exists. but he is forgetting to take in account all the messianic churches, they all follow the old commandments of the bible and such they keep the correct sabbath and what not, so what is wrong with them? nothing... as far as following the original mosaic law there is an entire book written to the churches of galatia about how rediculous and blasphemous they are being trying to continue in the law so there goes that theory out the window..
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:21 am

wizardovmetal wrote:
i found the most fantastic source of end times information, i myself cant see how anyone could possibly argue with this AT ALL im begging you please please check this out, its not theory, its not speculation. http://www.realtruth.org/wtc_029_090918.html

LV your close, extremely, but have your mark of the beast somewhat mixed up

Two verses were taken completely out of context in the first five minutes. This video has pretty much lost the little credibility it may of have.

The first:

Hosea 4:6 - NIV (bolded verse referenced) wrote:

My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
also will ignore your children."

What is the prophet Hosea talking about? Head knowledge? Faith knowledge? Pastor Cook claims it's referring to head knowledge. Two problems with this theory:

1) It completely ignores the next 4 lines of verse 6.
2) It doesn't take the general chapter into context, but rather takes one verse and tries to make it apply to something it has nothing to do with. What does it refer to? Look back at verse 1.

Hosea 4:1 - NIV (emphasis mine) wrote:

Hear the word of the LORD, you Israelites,
because the LORD has a charge to bring
against you who live in the land:
There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land."

The last four lines of verse 6 is a repetition of the last two lines of verse one (bolded above). How many times have we seen in the bible that it is only FAITH that does not damneth a soul? Knowledge helps, but in the end, it doesn't mean much.

The second:

Ezekiel 33:1-9 - NIV (bolded part referenced in video) wrote:


The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: 'When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'

"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

Pastor Cook took verse 7 of the above and attempted to apply it to the end times. Again, there is a major problem with this.

Ezekiel 1:2 - NIV wrote:
On the fifth of the month—it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin...

Ezekiel 32:1 - NIV wrote:
In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me...

Ezekiel 33:21 - NIV wrote:
In the twelfth year of our exile, in the tenth month on the fifth day, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said, "The city has fallen!"

That statement made in the initial verse had to have taken place between the twelfth year in the tenth month on the first day, and the twelfth year in the twelfth month on the fifth day. This was 65 months after the exile of King Jehoiachin. King Jehoiachin was exiled around 586 BC, so this had to of occurred sometime between 581 BC and 580 BC, depending on the exact date he was exiled....nearly 2600 years ago. There is no possible way this verse is talking about the endtimes.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:26 am

lord voldemort wrote:

2 Thes. 2 is about 70 C.E. Christ said in the temple before being crucified that they will see him coming in glory on the clouds. And the High priest tore his robes. That was not referring to his second coming, that was referring to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Some of those men, according to Josephus, lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem. What Paul is saying is that the man of sin will be shown in Jerusalem all one has to do is read the history and several men claimed to be the messiah, the one who was "restrained" is a man, called John Levi. He was responsible for or partly responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem, the one restraining him was the high priest, when he died, Levi when on a rampage and caused a lot of trouble, and proclaimed himself to be a messiah and Rome came down hard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Giscala

Just because the bible says it looks like it is the "return of Christ" it is used by Christ and Paul as the coming of Judgment, not his second coming. Jesus said, if you took it literally, that he would arrive at 70 C.E., but he did not, judgment came instead. So it was used to proclaim judgment. That Christ was behind the judgment.


wait, i hope u arent saying there is no literal second coming on its way?
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:06 am

No Jon. He's just saying 2 Thessolonians 2 has no application to the Second Coming.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:48 pm

againsttheantichrist wrote:
No Jon. He's just saying 2 Thessolonians 2 has no application to the Second Coming.

Correct, what most have not taken into consideration is that when Christ returns analogy are used, it can means a "second coming" or it can mean he is coming in judgment.

He told the High Priest they will see him coming in power. Did they see his second coming? No, some of them lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem.

Rev. 19 is another example, If my theory is correct, Chap 19 has already been fulfilled, and Christ still did not come back, then it means he came back in judgment on the Beast and False Prophet.

Paul tells of a "second coming"

2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

This is in reference to 70 C.E., this is talking about that guy I linked, John Levi. Who was restrained by the High Priest, when he was killed, he proclaimed himself the Messiah and caused the Roman Government to come in and destroy the City. This is what Christ foretold in Matt. 24.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:34 pm

ahhhhhhhhh great insight, now i think that you are really on to something here, i think it would be interesting if all of us on BB could together work on explaining all of revelation, if ALL of its past events can be explained and fit together up till now, we can have a good idea of what is to come

anyone willing to work on this?

also lord v you seem to have some of the latter events scoped out, if you could begin tracing the book of revelations backwards from them it would be fantastic, so you have it up to the seventh empire of the fourth beast, how far back can you go into the book?
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:42 pm

I don't view Revelation in the same way that you do. My conclusions, therefore, are radically different.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:20 pm

well how do you view it
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:04 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
ahhhhhhhhh great insight, now i think that you are really on to something here, i think it would be interesting if all of us on BB could together work on explaining all of revelation, if ALL of its past events can be explained and fit together up till now, we can have a good idea of what is to come

anyone willing to work on this?

also lord v you seem to have some of the latter events scoped out, if you could begin tracing the book of revelations backwards from them it would be fantastic, so you have it up to the seventh empire of the fourth beast, how far back can you go into the book?

I will give a brief overview.

The eighth empire is "The Beast from the Abyss", which can be found in chap. 9,11,17,20. The Beast from the Abyss appears to be the Neo-Ottomanism movement in Turkey, under the present ruling part AKP. As those articles i posted showed how they are moving into Iraq and Syria and moving toward a federation of some sort.

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

The beast before it is the Beast and False Prophet (the beast that was), it is not (It is in the Abyss), and then it comes out of the abyss and goes to destruction (Rev. 20:10. the "Devil" is the Dragon/Beast from the Abyss.

The Beast and False Prophet was the Ottoman Empire, the False Prophet was the Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire.

There will be eight empires (Rev. 17:9,10), five have fallen (at the time of the writing), one is, one is yet to come:

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

The Seventh Empire will not be and then will arise as an eighth empire.

So we have a seventh empire that will arise later as an eighth empire, so lets back track from here.

The sixth empire we can conclude is Rome, because that is when the book was written. We know from History that the Western Empire collapsed but the Eastern Empire continued for another 1,000 years. The Eastern Empire fell in 1452 by the Ottoman Turks.

We know that Rome took over the empire of Macedonia, after it was split into four parts. Macedonia was the fifth empire.

Macedonia via Alexander the Great took over the Persian Empire.
The Persian Empire via Cyrus the Great took over the Babylonian Empire.
Nebuchadnezzar took over the Assyrian Empire
The Assyrian Empire took over Israel and Judah from the Egyptians, though Egypt and Assyria became allies toward the end and fought Nebuchadnezzar.
Egypt was the first foreign power to occupy the nation of Judah after the death of Solomon.

I can show that the Beast and False Prophet was the Ottoman Empire, but that will have to be another time. But this is the overview of the eight empires.
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:12 pm

interesting, now if you dont mind answering, do you have any idea what the "plagues" are that God dumped on those with the mark of the beast?
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PostSubject: Re: "End time" claim made by Wizard   Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:30 pm

From my commentary on Revelation chap. 16.

Quote :
Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
Rev 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
Rev 16:3 The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
Rev 16:4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;
Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
Rev 16:7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."
Rev 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
Rev 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
Rev 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."
Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.



Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

The temple is where the seat of judgment is, almost every judgment either on the Seventh Empire or the Eighth Empire it comes from angels from within the Temple of Heaven. This is no exception, seven angels are ready to pour out their judgment on the Ottoman Empire.

As mentioned above, the mark of the beast is associated with the seventh empire, The Ottoman Empire. So there is no doubt, the seven vials are different and separate judgments, separated by time and space. Whereas, the first four trumpets predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the last three predicts the rise and fall of the Eighth empire: Gog and Magog.

I have argued that the 1/3 in most of the cases are a result of the Ottoman Empire loosing Europe, the war that would defeat the Ottoman Empire and bring it to an end was sparked by Christian Europe seeking its independence from the Ottoman Empire. The Empire was plagued by several wars with Europe.

In 1908: Create was separated from the empire, when Russia, France, Britain and Italy invaded and took control of the Island before handing it over to Greece. Crete declared union with Greece and the Ottoman Empire declared war on Greece, Italy, Britain, France and Russia took advantage of it and sided with Greece.

In 1909: Albania declared that they would use the Latin Alphabet, instead of the Arabic, this was seen as an act of separation by the Ottomans, this led to a revolt by Albania supported by Austria-Hungary. By 1913 Albania was a neutral country separated from the Ottoman Empires, thanks in part by England, France, Italy and Russia.

In 1911: Italy attacks North Africa and takes control of the coastal parts of Libya, this invasion would be one of the preludes to World War One. Italy also attacked Isle of Rhodes and Greek speaking Islands near Anatolia. This war showed how disorganized the Ottomans were, and the Balkans League would attack the empire before the end of Italian war.

In 1913: Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria attacked the Ottoman Empire claiming the lands of Albania, Thrace and Macedonia, The Ottoman Empire agreed to a cease fire and they lost all of their European holdings. Thus, 1/3 of their empire is lost.

1914 World War One begin, the judgment of the empire.

The first blow to the Ottoman Empire will be of such a nature that it will leave a sore on the conscience and people of the empire. That blow seems to correlate with the loss of 1/3 of its empire before World War One, territory that it has not been able to reclaim, until recently with the creation of (Islamic) Republic of Kosovo, February 2008.

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

The first angel poured is vial on to the Empire: The wrath of God became loathsome and malignant sores. Reading it this way, one would almost think this is talking about a chemical or viral infection on the people. But the two words loathsome and malignant may not mean that.

Kakos means destructive.
Ponēros means hardship.
Helkos means sore.

The judgment on the Ottoman Empire will produce a destructive hardship on the people of the empire, in essence it would create a symbolic sore on the people. In the thinking of Islam, once a territory is under Islamic control, it is Islamic for all time (Dar-al-Islam= House of Submission). One of the things that Muslims today regret is the loss of South Eastern Europe and Spain. Al-Zawahirir said: "The return of Andalus [today's Spain] to Muslim hands is a duty for the Islamic nation in general and for you in particular." [quote from: Spain In The Shadow Of Bin Laden: by Norman Berdichevsky (March 2008)
{http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/15563/sec_id/15563} on 3/15/2008]

The earth is the sign of the False Prophet.

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.

The False Prophet is the one who calls the people to wear the mark of the beast:

Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Toward the end of the empire, the Sultan (caliphate) has been weaken by several events, most notably is when he suspended parliament, in which in 1876 it was suspended and in 1908 was restored by the event of the Young Turk Revolution, which the Sultan restored the Parliament in hope of staving off disaster. The Ottoman Empire at this point is arguably at its weakest point, a revolt by Turks, the loss of land in Europe a mere 6 years later and then its defeat as an empire in 1918. Europe began pressing into the territory of the Ottoman Empire and it was unable to halt the advancement. By the end of the World War One, the Caliphate is destroyed. The False Prophet is the sea, and it becomes poisoned.

By the end of the Ottoman Empire, the populous of Turkey turns on the Caliphate, as if it really was a poisonous icon, they threw it down so hard that Turkey to this day ensures that they never return to the days of the Sultan.

The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

The sea in reference to the Seventh Empire is the “Beast of the Sea”, the Islamic Empire: the Ottoman Empire. The judgment on the Ottoman Empire will bring it to a complete end.

Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

The Ottoman Empire was invaded by several nations, which ultimately brought it to an end. Russia was interested in the northern territory, near Turkey and South East Europe near Albania and Greece. England, Australia and New Zealand invaded Turkey. England also came in from the south and incited an Arab revolt to drive out the Ottomans, this occurred when the British captured Palestine. In 1918 the Ottoman Empire was defeated.

Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.

The end of the empire will be threw war. The idea of the rivers turning to blood, brings to mind, the old ways of war, where they fought hand to hand, and they would fight in the rivers, and if a man fell they left him to bleed out. As more and more men die in the river, the river will turn to blood red, unless cleaned up right away, rivers can stay as blood up to three to four days.

The Ottoman Empire will fight against and their defeat so numerous that their bodies will be given over to the birds of prey.

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

I will go into this more when I get to that chapter. But suffice to say, the end of the Ottoman Empire is by war and their dead will be numerous. The destruction of the Ottoman Empire was enormous, both in civilian and military casualties, an estimation of 25% of the Ottoman Muslims were killed, that is roughly 5 million people. The empire really ran red with blood.

And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it." And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."


The judgment of the Ottoman Empire in the sight of God is a righteous act. God avenged the death of his saints who were killed under the Beast, who killed them without mercy, for the fact that they served God and did not become Muslim and submit themselves to a false god.

The angel is making it very clear that this is an act of God, that God is condemning the Seventh Empire. The judgments literally gave them blood to drink. If the number is accurate, the Ottoman Empire lost over 5 Million Muslims in the span of 4 years.

The harshest thing said is that they deserve it, that the Islamic Religion under the Ottoman Empire killed the saints of God and now God is acting out his vengeance and his acts are righteous, his judgment pure, the angel said it best: They deserve the judgment handed to them, what they did to God's saints God returned upon them, they killed the saints by the sword and the Empire was conquered by the sword and many were killed by the sword.

The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

The judgment of the sun. The land or earth represents The False Prophet. The Sea represents the Beast. The Sun represents the Dragon. The Dragon that gave its power to the Beast and False Prophet is now being judged. As the sun is the chief light of the sky, the Great Red Dragon is the chief power behind the Beast and False Prophet. The Great Red Dragon sign appears in the sky.

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

The judgment of the Dragon is stated in Revelation 20:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Repentance is the key to God's forgiveness, God was willing to stave off judgment against the Ottoman Empire if they repented. They chose not too and judgment had to be commenced upon them, God only offers forgiveness or judgment. The people of the Dragon did not repent, therefore the Dragon was thrown into the abyss.

Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

The judgment is now on the Ottoman Empire as a whole, the throne of the beast, its seat of power. As a Muslim Empire, the last thing they must have thought that a Christian Empire would conquer them. In a last attempt the Ottoman Empire last propaganda effort was to turn Muslim vs Christian, turn it into a holy war. By this time, the Muslims of the empire saw the weakness of it and rebelled with England's help and encouragement. The Ottomans were Turks, a different race altogether from the Arabs that mostly lived under their rule, when the time came, the Arabs over threw their Muslim Masters for the Christian. Britain made it clear that they would turn power back over to them when the war was over, which must have made it easier for them to accept Christian rule temporarily over the long Muslim Turkish rule they had just experienced.

When Turkey was formed the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate became a sore their conscience, the sought to remove it as quickly as possible, limiting its power then to utter vanquishment.

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

The sixth angel symbolic judgment is not on the Euphrates river, but on what it symbolizes. It is the life source of the Middle East. The angel judgment is on the life source of the Ottoman Empire, the Caliphate. As the Empire was being conquered by the Christian Powers of Europe, the Turks had a decision to make, as mentioned before they over threw the Caliphate and elected a western style government. One that was on terms with Europe and one that could modernize and hope that never again will a Muslim country like Turkey be defeated by a Christian Power.

The kings from the east, represent a new era of rulers. The north is a sign of judgment, east is a sign of redemption. Turkey's Ottoman Empire was destroyed but it was allowed to live on again under a new era. God brought about his judgment and the very people he judged saw the error of their ways and removed once and for all the Tyrant of the Caliphate and the Empire, that brought it such great power and utter ruin.

That is till the thousand years are up and the Great Red Dragon will cause Turkey to become a power once again and it will be judged more harshly than before. This time Christ will come down and deal with it, instead of the surrogate English Empire.

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

The Traditional argument is that the Dragon is Satan, a spiritual being who chief's purpose is to oppose God. The argument I have been laying out says that the Dragon is not Satan (a personal entity) but the Empirical system of eight empires. The wording alone denotes that the Dragon is not Satan (personal entity) how can Satan be possessed by one of this own demons? This phrase alone disproves that Satan (personal entity) is involved at all with the Beast and False Prophet and proves that Satan (The Dragon) is an adjective of the Empirical system.

The frogs or demons gather the world to war. The war to defeat the Ottoman Empire was World War One, a war that made many nations choose sides. The Allies led by Britain and America and the Central Powers led by Germany and the Ottoman Empire. The start of the war clearly belongs on the Ottoman Empire, by this time the system is so corrupted and weak, it was unable to put down several revolts in the European theater. Which would later cause unrest in other parts of the empire, predominantly supported by England, who encouraged the Arabs to revolt against their Turkish Masters and allowing themselves to be subjected to Christian rule instead of the more preferred rule of Islam.

The British Empire is the surrogate power of Christ, God is using them in order to bring out the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, which would bring about the nation of Israel. By fighting the British Empire they were in essence fighting God himself.

("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")

This is a parenthetical statement, the allusion is to the fifth church of Sardis.

Rev 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

I have argued that the church of Sardis is the Catholic/Orthodox Church and that the Church of Thyatira is the church that operated within the Ottoman Empire. I still maintain that position, but the question is what does this mean? If my theory is right, then this is a warning to the present church, that Christ will come afterwards (his second coming). But the context shows that might not be the case, but that this is indeed in reference to something else entirely. That this is talking about the the saints that were killed under the Beast and False Prophet and that Christ will soon resurrect them from the dead.

And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

In September 19, 1918 General Allenby fought the Ottoman Empire in Megiddo or Har-Magedon. Allenby just captured the city of Jerusalem in 1917, in order to finish off the Turks this battle needed to be fought. Allenby received two Indian Infantry Divisions to bring his force back up to full strength. Allenby had control of Indian, British, Australian and presumably New Zealand troops. Using what he had, he was able to deceive the Turks and make his advance into the region and capture several important towns, such as Damascus, the Jezreel Valley, Haifa, Nazareth, by the end of the campaign the Turks surrendered 75,000 troops and on October 31, 1918 Turkey surrendered fully. General Allenby titled himself: the First Viscount Allenby of Megiddo.

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

After the battle of Megiddo Turkey capitulated, the judgment of the Ottoman Empire is over.

And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

The judgments are complete, the earth is giving praise to God with by its most terrifying events, earthquake, lighting and thunder, so great is the praise by the earth that they are like none man has experienced before. But no earthquake shook the world after World War One, the act here is symbolic, the seventh angel said it is done, therefore, these are not judgments, but praise to God.

The “city of Babylon” is remembered before God. When the Ottoman Empire was defeated it was broken up into many pieces, divided up so the empire could never be reformed. Before the final treaty was signed (The Treaty of Sevres) Turkey was split up into ten parts: 1. Turkey 2. Kurdish 3. Armenia 4. Greece 5. France 6. Britain 7. Turkish/French 8. Turkish/British
9. Turkish/Italian 10. International Demilitarized Zone. As the Ottoman Empire was formed of Ten Tribes it was so split up into the same ten parts at its defeat.

The next chapter gets into detail of Babylon the whore and God's judgment on it. God's wrath on the Islamic religion of the Ottoman Empire is so fierce that everything flees before God. This should say that when God is at his most wrathful point, take a lesson from here and flee.
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