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 God of love or God of wrath?

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metalgrinch

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:25 pm

Architeuthis wrote:
wiremu.white wrote:
God is a god of wrath because he is a God of love.
This.

This is the way I understand it: The wrath of God is the full weight of His being brought against that which destroys the object of His affection. God's wrath is poured out on sin because sin destroys His children. It's not that God is angry at His children, but because He loves them He administers the chemotherapy of His wrath against their disease of sin.

That said, not everything you're going through is a result of God's wrath, and not everything that is wrath is a response to your sin. For his whole life, Jesus had to deal with some serious stuff: Poverty, splinters, injustice, oppression, rejection, family strife, death, and on and on. But none of that was His fault, and none of it meant God didn't love Him. God never stopped loving Him even as He was drinking to the dregs the full measure of wrath poured out for the sins of the world.

In the same way, even though you might be experiencing a small measure of righteous wrath and also some things that aren't your fault, God still loves you as His own child.

This makes perfect sense, thanks for that. I think sometimes in order for God's BIG picture plan to work, some people need to feel hurt or get hurt, not for hurt's sake, but for the sake of their character being built up, even if it means to help others. The fact that girls don't really find me appealing MAY not be entirely my fault, God just might be holding it back for good reason. But what I need to stop doing is looking bitterly towards women and especially God.

I've been thinking of the importance I place on marriage and romantic love - I see young couples who are unmarried and seem very happy, usually these couples go out for maybe 2 years or less before marrying. I see married couples who are parents of teenagers and older young adults, and that romance just doesn't seem apparent anymore. They express it in different ways - sometimes they don't walk side by side, usually married couples hardly EVER hold hands, they hardly or NEVER kiss and act lovey-dovey in public, etc. The physical attraction and hope for things like physical love and intimacy have wavered. Am I putting myself through so much grief only for those mere 6 months to 2 or so years of lovey-dovey time? It's an exciting thought, but at the same time I enjoy doing things singles do - meeting people, being financially independent, etc. At this point I honestly don't want the lovey-dovey stuff as much as I simply want sexual intimacy. That's... pretty much it. To invest so much grief in ONLY that I think goes to show that perhaps a serious relationship shouldn't be SUCH priority yet. Yet if God thinks it the right time (given He knows me more than I know me) than I'll take it, but until then I guess I'll keep "trying," yet probably be shocked if it actually happened.

I think of all the disappointments I've had with women in the past, and I think this will work out for the best, if only to ensure that I love my future wife FULLY, and look at her as if she's the only woman on the planet. I don't want a marriage of half-love, I want to still be in love with my wife at 50 as much as at 30. These types of marriages do exist, but it takes work, romance takes work, fun takes work, love takes work. After all, I do plan on marrying the most profoundly intellectual woman on the planet. Why? well... she'll marry ME, derrr! I love you
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:19 am

againsttheantichrist wrote:
DOL, love you to death brother, but you're way off the mark with the Church.

No Churches, no means of accountability, no discipleship, no communion with other believers. Leave the Church by choice (unless its due to a membership change, move, or heresy grounds), and you're asking for trouble.

Before I begin, I love you and metalgrinch and everyone else to death as well. As grinch has done, don’t think or take my posts as knock on someone. Sometimes as even you spoke of, we may have to be harsh whether we like it or not for Truth to avail.

Apparantly by this definition of church, you have no idea of what you are speaking of. Traditional church is what you leave, not Biblical Church. No means of accountability? NO! In fact, because you don’t have the church as a crux to rely on, you are now more accountable than ever before. Now that you are left, you are solely responsible for if you have accepted or believed heresies and lies as opposed to scape goating the forsakened businesses if they have lied to you. Many people believe in lies simply because their businesses told them to believe it. Due to it, the blame lies on the businesses. Now that you aren’t scape goating with the businesses, you now must accept the responsibility as Christ has spoken of.

No discipleship? NO! Now that you have left the church, the discipleship is the Truth and the Scriptures, not what the pastor says. As Christ said, you bend to the ways of God and His Word, not to other men. I am a living testimony that you will learn so much more about God out of church than in “church” if you Truly wish to seek him.

No communion with other believers? Rather than saying the typical no, then I must ask everyone on this board if they are a Christian. If the majority claim they are a Christian, then either they are lying, or this phrase here is a flat out LOL joke. (No disrespect or flame intended. Just unless all the Christians here are liars, the fact that I’m on Blabberjesus disproves this.)

As you put it, I left on heresy grounds, and I highly recommend every one else do the same. Remember, forsakened businesses are not what the Biblical Church is. That is a problem with the businesses. They have perversed the very definition of Church and what it is and what is being a part of it.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Also, are you aware that leaving the Church for any other grounds except for the three above and staying completely isolated it by choice is a sin? God commands believers to attend a local Church whenever possible. You're disobeying God in that particular case.

You are aware that if those 3 sentences together are True, then Christianity is a lie? Sorry, but research on what Church is before making such a comment as that. Shall we move this unto another thread brethren?

againsttheantichrist wrote:

As well, please chill out. The comment regarding Job I thought was extremely disrespectful. To be a brother in Christ, that's not setting a good example of your faith. Nor is the Church proclamation.

Thus saith the one who says that preaching Truth offends. So it seems the shoe is on the other foot. So, shall I ask, how was Job disrespectful? I ask because what metalgrinch from what he has been ranting on and what he has said (based solely on that) he has been complaining that the Prosperity Gospel isn’t True and due to this, Christianity isn’t True. I was simply pointing out that if Christianity = Prosperity, then that means that Job isn’t a Christian because he literally lived Hell, Pain, Suffering, and Agony for God, yet until it was the end, he never really got rewarded for doing good or praising. Not until it was all over.

Also, didn’t Paul also speak of a thorn in the flesh? How do you know that what Grinch is going through may actually be the thorn that could be keeping Him close to God? Thorn in the flesh contradicts the belief of you believe and do, and you will be rewarded and glorified for it. No, you may still go through Hell whether you like it or not, Job once again being an example. That being said, God is going to take all this into account when judging. How else did Job find great favor with God? God even went as far as to promise Job DOUBLE of EVERYTHING HE LOST because of how great his faith was. And God kept the promise. But Job still went through Hell. So Grinch could still just be in the “Hell” portion atm.

metalgrinch wrote:

To my Church's credit, my church isn't one that preaches the "joel osteen" type of sermons, it never has, all these expressions of ungratefulness on my part have really come from myself. They've come from lots of negative influences that I've put on myself - movies, porn, envy of those who have what I want, etc. Sure people at church have disappointed me, Church teachings have become sort of bland, and I honestly don't bother to become as close to them as I once was trying to... but I still attend on Sundays and that's really the only time I go, whereas previously I used to go at least a few times a week, but now that I'm simply too busy to go, I don't let it bother me. I don't think I'll LEAVE my current church entirely, but I definitely don't put my heart into it like I used to, don't care to really help like I used to, and while I still do tithe, it doesn't always go towards "church" but I do it on my own, even if it just means donating to charities, or buying my family dinner one night.

With the clarification now at hand. I apologized for the church bashing of yours. I was thinking that this was what the church was feeding you, but you came and admitted that it came from you. So from there I apologize, although I still stand by my original posts. It seems you really need to do some Soul Searching. Deviating from Christians and Christianity and life itself to meditate and think and search can, has, does, and will be very helpful to a Christian for seeking Truth. Think differently? Even Christ distanced himself from other believers for the same meditating and praying.

As for the tithe, Christianity preaches giving, not tithing, so you are correct. You just have the wrong word for it. What you wrote is giving.

metalgrinch wrote:

Another frustrating factor is my history of wanting to be loving to others and doing things for them, they tend to not want my help, they have pushed me away and said that I was the one who did the pushing away, the ungratefulness that I've felt from them makes me very bitter about helping others, it just isn't worth it. For some reason an older single guy being loving to others is scary, because where I am men have more or less become the enemy - guilty of perversion unless proven innocent.

Usually if they do that, from my eyes, because I do know what you are going through (experienced the same thing here and may have contributed to my misanthropy), the best advice I can give is to do as they wish and just leave them alone. Don’t help them out if they don’t want your help, but help out those who wish for your help. If they come back to you, then help them out. Just don’t send off the message however that you are a vending machine for them. Basically I guess the best advice I can give here is yes help out, but only help out if they are willing for you to allow them for you to help them out. They don’t want you, it’s okay because it obviously shows you don’t need them, NOT they don’t need you. Usually when people are so horrible and bitter like that towards people who wish to help them for no reason, it shows you their hearts and what is going on. I have been offered help before, but when I turn them down, I show them great appreciation but still turn them down in great thanks. I also inform that I don’t feel right accepting help, not because they are or aren’t worthy, but rather I feel I’m taking advantage of them if I take it. Basically, I turn down the help with love, not bitterness. Those who turn you down out of bitterness, show they need you, not you need them. Just respect their wishes and let them crash and burn.

metalgrinch wrote:

The last paragraph of my post was just saying that I do want to see a change in myself, and when it doesn't seem to happen in the little ways, it feels like I've come nowhere new, and though others may say I have, I don't believe them because I just think they're trying to be nice. The "little ways" I speak of are when I still deal with small bouts of shyness and not being quick-minded enough to know how to be social towards others.

Now I understand. Remember this about Life. Life is always ever changing and changing always takes a lifetime. Change doesn’t happen overnight. It took my 20 years of life for me to become that which I am today, and I know I’m going to be a totally different person 20 years from now as well. Just remember, change doesn’t happen overnight. Due to this, just don’t fret if you don’t feel anything new, just let life take it’s course. Trust me on this. There are things that 5 years ago, I would have never dreamed I would have become or thought or viewed that I see today. Life is ever changing.

metalgrinch wrote:

I love you too katie, thanks
and to Death over Life - thanks for your breakdown, you helped a lot, gave me stuff to think about.

Anytime my fellow brother. That is what I’m here for and that is what I love causing people to do. I hope the additions that I have added will cause for you and others to continue to think and ponder. Thinking I discover does help give new insights on previous struggles or views.

metalgrinch wrote:

What is really the problem here is my general view of God and who God is. For some reason I have a very very difficult time believing that He's more loving than angry (or that He wants to bother continuing to love me after everything I've done), because nowhere in Scripture that I can remember does it say that He's "crazy about me," or "In love with me" or wants to have "a relationship" with me. But His anger is evident throughout. So every minute I actually DO want to be doing what God wants me to be doing, but given my perfectionist nature, I HATE messing up, I HATE making mistakes and I HATE doing things wrong... even small things - I remember about a week ago I attempted to make rice krispies treats for a small church group and I messed them up, they came out like rocks, I got so angry with myself as if this one little act determined me as a person. So given enough time one tends to become pretty bitter about always having to do things the right way ALL THE TIME for God or He will get angry, and hence in return one gets angry at God, and thus begins the frustrating relationship.
My problem is that I don't know how to stop these annoying personality quirks of mine - the envy, the perfectionism, the unbelief, etc. I also get frustrated with the fact that NOBODY around me seems to have these problems.

Yep, the view of God is so ready to condemn but so afraid to love. Remember, that is not the way God is. God is so ready to love, but doesn’t wish to condemn. If you are truly a follower of Christ, I remembered reading or hearing somewhere that God/Christ is not a rememberer of sin for his’ children. As I’ve said so many times, following God and Worshipping the True God is actually one of the easiest things you could ever do. Where the problem lies and why I continue saying leave the church, is because the church teaches you that satisfying God is a next to impossible challenge that only the elite extreme fundamentalist views can do. (Usually then they will take the words of Christ out of context to justify this. Example is the one that says, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees…) Part of how this has come to be, is the church taking the views of the pharisees and applying it to worshipping God, which is why so many people feel as you do Grinch. I am just here to say that, worshipping Christ is easy. Remember, I believe it is Christ who said “My burden is easy and my yoke is light.” As I’ve said so many times, there is a reason why Christ said that. It is just the church doesn’t like that.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=466

I did read that, and they have some good Scriptures, but they don’t tell you what Church is, but rather leave the definition to the author. Good Scriptures that were perversed by the author’s pre-conceived agenda.

Quote :

The purpose of being a Christian is to have the forgiveness of our sins and therefore have a promise of eternal life. The forgiveness of sins are found only in Christ, which means in his body the church.

When we are baptized into Christ we become members of his church, He adds us to it, we do not join it.

As members of the Lords' church we have a responsibility to help carry out the mission of the church, which is to take the gospel to the lost.

The Lord expects us as newborn Christians to grow spiritually:

Without attending church services where these things are taught, where we receive strength from other members and worship God, we cannot grow.

Wanting to be a member without attending church services would be like wanting to be a member of Alcoholics Anonomous without attending the meetings.

We have to attend church services in order to grow spiritually, we have to grow spiritually in order to be pleasing unto God, and we have to be found pleasing unto God in order to receive heaven as our reward.

Now, his beginning was alright since I can give you Scripture to back them 1st 4 up, but the last 3 just destroyed his entire testimony because then he told us his definition of Church. I apologize, but the last 3 sentences in the quotes are heresy especially the last one, where it is claiming that church attendance is what causes salvation. The 2nd one to the last is just LOL and I disprove the 1st one of the last 3.

Rather than go by a pre-conceived agenda that twists Scripture. Let me give you Scripture alone on Church. This is just 1 Chapter among MANY Biblical Scriptures that show you what Church is and it’s purpose etc.

1 Corinthians 14 (King James Version)
1 Corinthians 14
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.

I shall end this at that.
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:31 am

Death over Life wrote:
Apparantly by this definition of church, you have no idea of what you are speaking of. Traditional church is what you leave, not Biblical Church. No means of accountability? NO! In fact, because you don’t have the church as a crux to rely on, you are now more accountable than ever before. Now that you are left, you are solely responsible for if you have accepted or believed heresies and lies as opposed to scape goating the forsakened businesses if they have lied to you. Many people believe in lies simply because their businesses told them to believe it. Due to it, the blame lies on the businesses. Now that you aren’t scape goating with the businesses, you now must accept the responsibility as Christ has spoken of.

No discipleship? NO! Now that you have left the church, the discipleship is the Truth and the Scriptures, not what the pastor says. As Christ said, you bend to the ways of God and His Word, not to other men. I am a living testimony that you will learn so much more about God out of church than in “church” if you Truly wish to seek him.

No communion with other believers? Rather than saying the typical no, then I must ask everyone on this board if they are a Christian. If the majority claim they are a Christian, then either they are lying, or this phrase here is a flat out LOL joke. (No disrespect or flame intended. Just unless all the Christians here are liars, the fact that I’m on Blabberjesus disproves this.)

You sound like a proud rebel to me.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 am

wiremu.white wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
Apparantly by this definition of church, you have no idea of what you are speaking of. Traditional church is what you leave, not Biblical Church. No means of accountability? NO! In fact, because you don’t have the church as a crux to rely on, you are now more accountable than ever before. Now that you are left, you are solely responsible for if you have accepted or believed heresies and lies as opposed to scape goating the forsakened businesses if they have lied to you. Many people believe in lies simply because their businesses told them to believe it. Due to it, the blame lies on the businesses. Now that you aren’t scape goating with the businesses, you now must accept the responsibility as Christ has spoken of.

No discipleship? NO! Now that you have left the church, the discipleship is the Truth and the Scriptures, not what the pastor says. As Christ said, you bend to the ways of God and His Word, not to other men. I am a living testimony that you will learn so much more about God out of church than in “church” if you Truly wish to seek him.

No communion with other believers? Rather than saying the typical no, then I must ask everyone on this board if they are a Christian. If the majority claim they are a Christian, then either they are lying, or this phrase here is a flat out LOL joke. (No disrespect or flame intended. Just unless all the Christians here are liars, the fact that I’m on Blabberjesus disproves this.)

You sound like a proud rebel to me.

How is that relevant to the topic? Rolling Eyes
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therockismighty

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:01 am

its not really..... Might need to stick to the topic ya reckon? cheers
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:11 am

look at it this way, god owes us nothing, god created us, we belong to him. god is most certainly a god of love, his wrath is just and we deserve it, we are disgutingly sinful vile creatures (humanity as a whole) when u have the holy spirit working in you as i do (i dont always but ever since re-dedicating myself to him i have had it non stop) you will see things from a godly point of view, you have convictions, you feel extreme pain for the world when u look at it, im at the point to where i feel as if the end of the age cant come soon enough and rid this sickening world of its filth...and atheists will never understand christianity because they dont have what we have, the holy spirit. their eyes are blind.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:23 pm

FireProphet wrote:
I think the American 'I'm a Christian so I should be blessed in superficial ways' belief system you've been indoctrinated with is interfering with your reverance for the sovereignty of God.

Why is it American? Lots of other peope of different nationalities hold this view. But yeah, the handouts gospel sucks. Of course, this isn't a problem I have encountered until I began talking to more protestants. I had no idea it was so prevalent. It just SOUNDS bad in theory, let alone in practice.

metalgrinch wrote:


There seems no end, no real way of changing your character in the same way you become frustrated that others stubbornly never change their character. But it realy all seems up to US, and US alone to change ourselves, and once it's done, IF it can be done, God seems to say "give me the credit, or feel my wrath and punishment."


Free will is a double edged sword my friend. Freedom has its cost. You are free to succeed or fail. God does not give you the answer on a plate. And is success truly a happy fun thing, even if it is joyful. St. Francis was a joyful man, but one could not say his life was terribly fun. You should not base your relationship with Christ on transient hunky dory feelings.

As for the last part, that is all your conjecture, and not what God is saying at all.

God bless ya Bro.
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