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 God of love or God of wrath?

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metalgrinch

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PostSubject: God of love or God of wrath?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:24 pm

A quote from 'The Atheist Bible' thread:

wiremu.white wrote:

A lot of the former-Christian atheists that I've talked to online testify that they were only in the faith because they were afraid of hell, but never seemed to get past that. They believe that Christianity teaches that if you behave yourself and deny for yourself all the things that you would really rather be doing, or work hard enough or so on, then you'll get to heaven. You might ask, well how on earth did they ever think they were Christian in the first place? They've apparently missed the Christian 101. I think some of it comes down to crappy gospel presentations that say that you must repent and believe in order to be saved. That's just back to front. You must repent and believe, but you must be saved in order to do that.


This is actually my exact problem... Christianity is something that feels like there isn't really a God who says He will give you great things if you follow Him, but once you begin to follow Him you don't really see any significant changes in your life, therefore your trust starts to waver, and all you conceive is that He's angry and doesn't want you walking away, or else...
Sure I may be doing things in my life (going to school for a better degree) but these things would've still probably happened whether or not I decided to begin attending a Protestant church and be baptized and go through all the politically correct cliche Christian actions and hang around the usual crowd of white Chris-Tomlin Mickey Mouse Protestant Christian young adults.

At first God says "yes, I will bless you" and He truly seems to in the beginning of your walk, but as you go along it fades for whatever reason, and you try to regain that same feeling of feeling loved and welcomed by God but it just isn't there like it used to be, no matter how much you read your Bible the same feeling of being "in love" with God just doesn't seem to come back. You read it again and again and just say to yourself "I've read this all before, this isn't telling me anything new." You begin to get frustrated with God and ask "where are the promises of all these great things?" And He seems to reply "it's a matter of the heart, your heart SHOULD be happy, and if it isn't , it's YOUR fault, YOU need to come back to me." You say "but I am, aren't I? I'm trying" but it's just isn't good enough. The blame goes to you and you only, as if God could not and will never see our position on things. You begin to question whether this faith is even worth it, but then you fear hell, damnation and punishment, so you stay in your "walk", and then you no longer know WHAT to think about God, since everything is nowhere near as clear as it used to be.
You ask what the point of following whole heartedly will do since you begin to see other Christians around you who seem just as unhappy (they may SAY they're happy but you never actually see them laugh or smile easily, if at all) as you are. You compare Scripture to actual REAL LIFE and though your Christian friends say it matches up (the same friends who begin to hurt you and disappoint you like your former non-christian friends never even did), you can't help but see that it simply doesn't. People's "hearts desire" is not always met when they "lose their lives," it just doesn't always happen, therefore if it's a lie to one person, it cannot be absolutely true in every case. In order for Scripture to be true it must be true for EVERY person, ALL the time, shouldn't it? But when it isn't we like to make excuses for it... when will people simply STOP making excuses for a God who isn't always interested in acting in people's lives (at least in the confines of what we call Christianity). Sure He may have MADE them, but does that automatically mean He's looking out for their best continuously without ever ceasing? Young good Christians die at young ages, evil people die old and live in wealth. Remember all those high school movies where the poor geek who gets beat up gets his just do when they're older and the nerd gets rich and great looking, meanwhile the hot jocks "get theirs" by becoming losers? In REALITY, the poor nerds sometimes become the losers, bitter over a life that isn't fair, a just do that never comes, and as far as the hot rich jock, in real life he only becomes hotter, richer and more powerful.
Scripture no longer becomes something you can take joy from, but simply a series of 'keep you on your toes' death threats and something read simply over and over again to perhaps stumble upon something that might give you hope for yourself as a person who actually WANTS things out of life, and something read so you can just keep fitting in with the one crowd who has more or less accepted you.

Furthermore, who are we to decide when God is angry or happy with us? What if we're in a good mood yet we hurt another person without intending it, does God get mad at us? Is it possible for us to be in a good mood while God is looking at us shaking His head in wrath? because if not that would mean that the entire unbelieving world would ALWAYS be in a bad mood, which it clearly isn't. Confident happy people exist with or without God, depressed anxious and disappointed people also exist with or without God. What I mean to ask in this is - is it right to be happy even though God isn't?

Example: Malachi states that God is upset with the Israelites because they are "robbing" God by denying Him their tithes. God replies with "if you tithed, and TESTED me on this, I would pour out blessings from heaven so vast you couldn't contain them all. So TEST me on this!" My church would say to actually do it, as God states there are blessings in store for us and He will bless us if we do so. MY reality check says that God meant to say this to the Israelites and to the Israelites at THAT TIME ONLY.
Is it "unhumble" to ask such things? Is the Bible really totally contradictory and never intended to be ENTIRELY the Word of God as it has come to be after its entire history of controversial make-up?

There seems no end, no real way of changing your character in the same way you become frustrated that others stubbornly never change their character. But it realy all seems up to US, and US alone to change ourselves, and once it's done, IF it can be done, God seems to say "give me the credit, or feel my wrath and punishment."
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Y_So_Srious?

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:33 pm

I say God is a God of both love and wrath.
As for the second paragraph, it all depends on if they are right with God.
God works actively in us and doesn't leave us alone.
Just because we don't get the answer we want doesn't mean God doesn't care/isn't working in our lives.
For one, I know what it feels like not feeling like anything has changed, a friend asked me what has changed in my life since I joined discipleship group (something my Youth Pastor runs for those in the youth who really want to learn more about God) and I couldn't think of ONE thing, though after a few minutes he encouraged me by saying that he saw changes.
One of the biggest lies out there is that your life will be easy once you become a christian. That is NOT true. It is not taught like that in the bible. Nowhere does it say, 'Your life will be easy and filled with riches here on earth.' Your life, in fact, is much harder. Being a christian you instantly become the outcast. With all your 'preaching' and strict morals. But we're not called to do anything that Jesus did not do. I forgot where (curses) but in the NT it specifically says that you WILL suffer.
Joy is a fruit of the spirit. If you are walking in the spirit you will see joy in your life. If you don't have joy in your life than I suggest you review your life and see what needs to be changed.
(I am sorry in advance if I misunderstood anything)
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FireProphet

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:40 pm

The first large portion of your post is a problem with mainstream Christianity. All these promises of material success, greatness, and social acceptance that the mainstream claim to be scriptural. But then there's reality, which you seem to grasp ok but would do well to recognize that God isn't the one who gave you funny ideas that counter reality. Other people are the ones who have essentially made Christianity out to be a self-serving thing where you deserve stuff.

I don't get the mood thing so someone else will have to help you meditate on that.

Your reality checker seems to work fine on tithes and offerings.
Regardless, I personally choose to still live by the principle of that verse by believing a portion of my finances belongs to the place(s) of ministry I attend so that they can thrive and minister to others (Spiritual food in the storehouse).

I'm not sure what the deal is with your last paragraph. You wanna be the hot rich guy who gets the hot supermodel wife, but you're upset you have to make the effort to do that, and you wouldn't want to praise God if you ever accomplished that? I am not of the Reformed persuasion but you might want to look into the issue of God's Sovereignty and Reformed teachers might be a good place to start. I think the American 'I'm a Christian so I should be blessed in superficial ways' belief system you've been indoctrinated with is interfering with your reverance for the sovereignty of God.
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Y_So_Srious?

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:47 pm

1 Peter 2:21-24 "For this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in His steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth. 23 When He was reviled, He did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but continued entrusting Himself to Him who judges justly."
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therockismighty

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:15 pm

Why the heck are you still stuck on this " must have hot wife or I am nothing" thing... its a bit passe isnt it?

If you believe God is this dude that punishes you all the time and you'll never cut a break and never meet a nice girl and settle down, yada yada yada...
Guess what you attract mate? crappy people or no one, same old same old life... because you have THE attitude THAT determines what you SEE and what you THINK.

Life can be opposite to what you have stated if you are Christ follower... every time I read something you post in this vein of venting... its about other people being seemingly better off then you cos they are hooked up, hot and happy.

Its like you want your life to be this classic teen romance comedy or something... ???

There seems no end, no real way of changing your character in the same way you become frustrated that others stubbornly never change their character. But it realy all seems up to US, and US alone to change ourselves, and once it's done, IF it can be done, God seems to say "give me the credit, or feel my wrath and punishment."


Sergio, if you really wanted to stop going on and on about all this stuff, you would... if you changed how you looked at people and stopped envying and coveting what is meant for another... you would be doing stuff in your own life so you would be blessed with what your meant to receive.

Stop whinging, Stop looking at what others have, Stop thinking God never does anything for you- I would kick you in the butt if I lived near you. Get out there and get healthier in your self image- dress better, get a new hair cut, look after yourself, stop the annoying jokes...,work on your self confidence and live your faith... you will see a change in how others view you, people you attract and how you see your life.
You and God are a team, Jesus died for us so we could get over ourselves and have some help through this life... Be in co operation as a TEAM with CHRIST... both sides do the work, if you don't do your side, His side is wasted.. cos you won't keep your end of the bargain.

When you play a game, do you just let the other person play and you just sit there not taking your turns?... get it?... take your turn mate! do your bit! and He does his, its not a bad thing to actually have to work with God!

I'll talk to you on facebook no doubt soon, love ya bro.

Anyone who thinks I'm being too blunt... its ok.. thats my intention... metalgrinch knows me well enough to know where I am coming from... and its for his consumption.
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IronGuardian

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:09 am

therockismighty wrote:
and its for his consumption.

Taste a bowl of wrath Razz




Katie gives good advice.


God doesn't 'owe' us anything. He's already given us the means of eternal life through Christ, and He's given us a world where the possibilities are all but endless, should we choose to pursue them.

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FireProphet

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:31 am

therockismighty wrote:
Stop whinging, Stop looking at what others have, Stop thinking God never does anything for you- I would kick you in the butt if I lived near you. Get out there and get healthier in your self image- dress better, get a new hair cut, look after yourself, stop the annoying jokes...,work on your self confidence and live your faith... you will see a change in how others view you, people you attract and how you see your life.
You and God are a team, Jesus died for us so we could get over ourselves and have some help through this life... Be in co operation as a TEAM with CHRIST... both sides do the work, if you don't do your side, His side is wasted.. cos you won't keep your end of the bargain.
BAM there it is. Meditate on all of that and then, most importantly, do it.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:39 am

God gave His Son for us. If I were God, I would be in absolute fury if someone complained that I don't do enough for them.

He gave up EVERYTHING for us, and here we are, going on a day by day basis, wanting god to do this-or-that, and when something goes wrong, we tear Him apart because He didn't do something or another and flat-out accusing Him that He hasn't done enough for us.

If anyone reading this falls in the category above, I got three words for you: Get over it.

Here's the reality: God has never been under any obligation to save man. You, myself, everyone on this board, and everyone on this planet, are dirty, wretched, disgusting, hateful, and wrathful sinners. If God decided after The Fall, "I'll let them multiply through the lands, but I will not do anything whatsoever to bring Myself to them", you know what would happen? He would still be just, still be holy, and still be righteous.

If I said this in most megachurches, I would be labeled a blasphemer and kicked out on the curb, but its the Truth. We deserve Hell, and God, to be just, has to give those not of Him over to His eternal wrath of uncalculated fury. That is what Hell is. Hell is not some place where the devil pokes you in the butt with a weird-looking spear. It's not a place full of fire and demons having a million orgies. It's the full force of God's wrath falling onto the damned and the godless. That's how Jesus Christ was able to talk about Hell, it's because His Father's wrath IS Hell.

So, in a matter of speaking, (I'm going off on a tangent, bear with me, and I'm probably going to open a can of worms on this comment in the process), Jesus did go to hell according to Isaiah 53. If the wrath of the Father fell upon Him, then He did go to Hell because we already concluded that the full extent of hell is found in Him. This is the greatest gift of love God ever gave man. That He sent His only begotten Son to Hell, after living a perfect life.

So yes, God is love, and God is wrath. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the perfect example of this.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:10 am

Many great posts on this forum on Christianity, but I shall also throw in my .02.
(Remember, this is the same person who almost left Christianity as well. Talking about myself here.)

metalgrinch wrote:

This is actually my exact problem... Christianity is something that feels like there isn't really a God who says He will give you great things if you follow Him, but once you begin to follow Him you don't really see any significant changes in your life, therefore your trust starts to waver, and all you conceive is that He's angry and doesn't want you walking away, or else...
Sure I may be doing things in my life (going to school for a better degree) but these things would've still probably happened whether or not I decided to begin attending a Protestant church and be baptized and go through all the politically correct cliche Christian actions and hang around the usual crowd of white Chris-Tomlin Mickey Mouse Protestant Christian young adults.

I shall inform you that that is your problem right there to begin with. You are indoctrinated with "church" and not Christ as FireProphet already explained. Since you seem to be in a position I once was, let me begin. GET OUT OF THE CHURCH SCENE AND THROW AWAY ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE EXCEPT THE ESSENTIAL(S)!!! Your church has taught you things about God (personally sounding similar to Joel Osteen's teachings) that is causing you to have these jaded views of God. Because you are still stuck in this and your church isn't helping you, you need to leave it. Trust me, I have learned SO MUCH about God and Christ leaving the church than I have when I was in it. A lot of how I changed is due to losing out on the church teachings, I then had to rely on myself to know what Scriptures teach rather than continue to be indoctrinated, and in doing this, I have discovered so many Truths about Christianity and what it really is had I never left the forsakened businesses. I really feel that you will never change unless you do the above, afterall, I was in the same position as you at one time.

metalgrinch wrote:

At first God says "yes, I will bless you" and He truly seems to in the beginning of your walk, but as you go along it fades for whatever reason, and you try to regain that same feeling of feeling loved and welcomed by God but it just isn't there like it used to be, no matter how much you read your Bible the same feeling of being "in love" with God just doesn't seem to come back. You read it again and again and just say to yourself "I've read this all before, this isn't telling me anything new." You begin to get frustrated with God and ask "where are the promises of all these great things?" And He seems to reply "it's a matter of the heart, your heart SHOULD be happy, and if it isn't , it's YOUR fault, YOU need to come back to me." You say "but I am, aren't I? I'm trying" but it's just isn't good enough. The blame goes to you and you only, as if God could not and will never see our position on things. You begin to question whether this faith is even worth it, but then you fear hell, damnation and punishment, so you stay in your "walk", and then you no longer know WHAT to think about God, since everything is nowhere near as clear as it used to be.

This part I will address your Bible reading. Sound just like me again. However, upon reading it, pondering it, studying it, and researching it, (and discussing it via pm with a fellow member here), I DO find the same old Scriptures I've read for so many years an ENTIRELY different meaning after the researching and studying. This goes once again back to leave the indoctrinated falsehood the church is teaching you and leave the church. Once you remove your pre-conceived agendas, go back and re-read what you have already read and read again, and see the Scripture's meaning change from indoctrinated church to Truth. One example with this that I am still researching and learning on is Matthew Ch. 24. With Matthew Ch. 24, I did learn something new in addition to a correction about how people constantly and popularly interpret that Chapter.

metalgrinch wrote:

You ask what the point of following whole heartedly will do since you begin to see other Christians around you who seem just as unhappy (they may SAY they're happy but you never actually see them laugh or smile easily, if at all) as you are. You compare Scripture to actual REAL LIFE and though your Christian friends say it matches up (the same friends who begin to hurt you and disappoint you like your former non-christian friends never even did), you can't help but see that it simply doesn't. People's "hearts desire" is not always met when they "lose their lives," it just doesn't always happen, therefore if it's a lie to one person, it cannot be absolutely true in every case. In order for Scripture to be true it must be true for EVERY person, ALL the time, shouldn't it? But when it isn't we like to make excuses for it... when will people simply STOP making excuses for a God who isn't always interested in acting in people's lives (at least in the confines of what we call Christianity). Sure He may have MADE them, but does that automatically mean He's looking out for their best continuously without ever ceasing? Young good Christians die at young ages, evil people die old and live in wealth. Remember all those high school movies where the poor geek who gets beat up gets his just do when they're older and the nerd gets rich and great looking, meanwhile the hot jocks "get theirs" by becoming losers? In REALITY, the poor nerds sometimes become the losers, bitter over a life that isn't fair, a just do that never comes, and as far as the hot rich jock, in real life he only becomes hotter, richer and more powerful.
Scripture no longer becomes something you can take joy from, but simply a series of 'keep you on your toes' death threats and something read simply over and over again to perhaps stumble upon something that might give you hope for yourself as a person who actually WANTS things out of life, and something read so you can just keep fitting in with the one crowd who has more or less accepted you.

Go back to my past 2 replies. I shall add another thing though. Since I just discovered your name, Sergio, meet Job! Job, meet Sergio. With what you are saying metalgrinch, you REALLY need to read Job then go back and listen to what the church is preaching to you. Job and his testimony DISPROVES Osteen and apparantly what this church is teaching you. Job's entire life following God has been a life even the most cold-hearted individual would not want or be given the opportunity to live, yet he (being nothing grand or special) was to live said life whether he liked it or not, and yet, no matter what, he STILL praised God for EVERYTHING despite what happened! His latter years in life was where he got his rewards, even though he lived a literal life of Hell to get their. Even then, his testimony also shows that reward goes beyond the physical realm into the spiritual realm, which I can tell you seem to have a problem believing.

Job is proof that reward isn't just physical reward, but also/or spiritual.

metalgrinch wrote:

Furthermore, who are we to decide when God is angry or happy with us? What if we're in a good mood yet we hurt another person without intending it, does God get mad at us? Is it possible for us to be in a good mood while God is looking at us shaking His head in wrath? because if not that would mean that the entire unbelieving world would ALWAYS be in a bad mood, which it clearly isn't. Confident happy people exist with or without God, depressed anxious and disappointed people also exist with or without God. What I mean to ask in this is - is it right to be happy even though God isn't?

Great questions that I know you will find the answers when/if you read the Bible. The Bible EXPLICITLY tell us what makes God happy and what pisses Him off.

metalgrinch wrote:

Example: Malachi states that God is upset with the Israelites because they are "robbing" God by denying Him their tithes. God replies with "if you tithed, and TESTED me on this, I would pour out blessings from heaven so vast you couldn't contain them all. So TEST me on this!" My church would say to actually do it, as God states there are blessings in store for us and He will bless us if we do so. MY reality check says that God meant to say this to the Israelites and to the Israelites at THAT TIME ONLY.
Is it "unhumble" to ask such things? Is the Bible really totally contradictory and never intended to be ENTIRELY the Word of God as it has come to be after its entire history of controversial make-up?

Once again, church teaching not Scripture. Research on tithing, it's purpose, what you tithed with, and who you gave your tithes to, then come back and tell me that.

However, your reality check has revealed part of the Truth which you did say that I agree with. But at the same time, I hope you know for beginning, tithing was never with cash or money, but of food/clothing/livestock etc.

No, it is not unhumble to ask such things. In fact, God does command us to question our beliefs and teachings and see what is Truth and what is lies. I believe it is in Thessalonians II Ch.5 Verse 21. Yes I know Paul is the one who wrote/spoke it, but at the same time, there is a reason why he said PROVE ALL THINGS.

The last answer is simply No. If you wish for proof and questioning, do the above.

metalgrinch wrote:

There seems no end, no real way of changing your character in the same way you become frustrated that others stubbornly never change their character. But it realy all seems up to US, and US alone to change ourselves, and once it's done, IF it can be done, God seems to say "give me the credit, or feel my wrath and punishment."

Hahaha. Dude, I disprove this last statement. I myself have really changed my character and who I am and what I believe. Yes, I still admit that Black Metal really did the job, God is still the one who receives the credit. By the end of the night, it was God that did change me, through black metal.

For you to say that, I have to not exist, which simply isn't True, because I am here alive testifying right now. Yes, you could say I'm just an internet troll/poser, but I guarantee you that if you and I were to meet in real life, I would tell you what I am saying right now. Just instead of typing, I would tell you face to face. My very existence and life disproves that statement.

I look forward to your reply and I look forward to more discussion of this.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:27 am

DOL, love you to death brother, but you're way off the mark with the Church.

No Churches, no means of accountability, no discipleship, no communion with other believers. Leave the Church by choice (unless its due to a membership change, move, or heresy grounds), and you're asking for trouble.

Also, are you aware that leaving the Church for any other grounds except for the three above and staying completely isolated it by choice is a sin? God commands believers to attend a local Church whenever possible. You're disobeying God in that particular case.

As well, please chill out. The comment regarding Job I thought was extremely disrespectful. To be a brother in Christ, that's not setting a good example of your faith. Nor is the Church proclamation.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:21 am

^ let's not start another argument PLEASE.

My intention with my post wasn't necessarily one of feeling anger or desperation, but more of one where I was simply stating where I am in my walk. Also the questioning of how I see things sometimes that simply don't make sense. But it definitely helps to hear your responses because it helps me see things differently again.
To my Church's credit, my church isn't one that preaches the "joel osteen" type of sermons, it never has, all these expressions of ungratefulness on my part have really come from myself. They've come from lots of negative influences that I've put on myself - movies, porn, envy of those who have what I want, etc. Sure people at church have disappointed me, Church teachings have become sort of bland, and I honestly don't bother to become as close to them as I once was trying to... but I still attend on Sundays and that's really the only time I go, whereas previously I used to go at least a few times a week, but now that I'm simply too busy to go, I don't let it bother me. I don't think I'll LEAVE my current church entirely, but I definitely don't put my heart into it like I used to, don't care to really help like I used to, and while I still do tithe, it doesn't always go towards "church" but I do it on my own, even if it just means donating to charities, or buying my family dinner one night.
Another frustrating factor is my history of wanting to be loving to others and doing things for them, they tend to not want my help, they have pushed me away and said that I was the one who did the pushing away, the ungratefulness that I've felt from them makes me very bitter about helping others, it just isn't worth it. For some reason an older single guy being loving to others is scary, because where I am men have more or less become the enemy - guilty of perversion unless proven innocent.

The last paragraph of my post was just saying that I do want to see a change in myself, and when it doesn't seem to happen in the little ways, it feels like I've come nowhere new, and though others may say I have, I don't believe them because I just think they're trying to be nice. The "little ways" I speak of are when I still deal with small bouts of shyness and not being quick-minded enough to know how to be social towards others.

To katie, yea I like my haircut, began going to a new place even though it's a bit more expensive Cool As far as dressing better, I've sort of done it in smaller ways, but it's hard to afford nice clothes only because just ONE nice shirt can set you back a good 40 bucks or more. I'm not at a place now where I have the liberty of spending too much money. The annoying jokes? ...yea ok, I think the problem is that I don't know which ones are annoying and which ones aren't, only because I like to try and make people laugh around me, and some appreciate them, while others don't, so I don't really know who to listen to and when. Oh, and when I talk to you on facebook next PLEASE don't say something like "sorry if I was blunt." Again, do not apologize, maybe if we lived closer a good kick might do the trick. I love you too katie, thanks
and to Death over Life - thanks for your breakdown, you helped a lot, gave me stuff to think about.

What is really the problem here is my general view of God and who God is. For some reason I have a very very difficult time believing that He's more loving than angry (or that He wants to bother continuing to love me after everything I've done), because nowhere in Scripture that I can remember does it say that He's "crazy about me," or "In love with me" or wants to have "a relationship" with me. But His anger is evident throughout. So every minute I actually DO want to be doing what God wants me to be doing, but given my perfectionist nature, I HATE messing up, I HATE making mistakes and I HATE doing things wrong... even small things - I remember about a week ago I attempted to make rice krispies treats for a small church group and I messed them up, they came out like rocks, I got so angry with myself as if this one little act determined me as a person. So given enough time one tends to become pretty bitter about always having to do things the right way ALL THE TIME for God or He will get angry, and hence in return one gets angry at God, and thus begins the frustrating relationship.
My problem is that I don't know how to stop these annoying personality quirks of mine - the envy, the perfectionism, the unbelief, etc. I also get frustrated with the fact that NOBODY around me seems to have these problems.
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:06 pm

metalgrinch wrote:
^ let's not start another argument PLEASE.

My intention with my post wasn't necessarily one of feeling anger or desperation, but more of one where I was simply stating where I am in my walk. Also the questioning of how I see things sometimes that simply don't make sense. But it definitely helps to hear your responses because it helps me see things differently again.
To my Church's credit, my church isn't one that preaches the "joel osteen" type of sermons, it never has, all these expressions of ungratefulness on my part have really come from myself. They've come from lots of negative influences that I've put on myself - movies, porn, envy of those who have what I want, etc. Sure people at church have disappointed me, Church teachings have become sort of bland, and I honestly don't bother to become as close to them as I once was trying to... but I still attend on Sundays and that's really the only time I go, whereas previously I used to go at least a few times a week, but now that I'm simply too busy to go, I don't let it bother me. I don't think I'll LEAVE my current church entirely, but I definitely don't put my heart into it like I used to, don't care to really help like I used to, and while I still do tithe, it doesn't always go towards "church" but I do it on my own, even if it just means donating to charities, or buying my family dinner one night.
Another frustrating factor is my history of wanting to be loving to others and doing things for them, they tend to not want my help, they have pushed me away and said that I was the one who did the pushing away, the ungratefulness that I've felt from them makes me very bitter about helping others, it just isn't worth it. For some reason an older single guy being loving to others is scary, because where I am men have more or less become the enemy - guilty of perversion unless proven innocent.

The last paragraph of my post was just saying that I do want to see a change in myself, and when it doesn't seem to happen in the little ways, it feels like I've come nowhere new, and though others may say I have, I don't believe them because I just think they're trying to be nice. The "little ways" I speak of are when I still deal with small bouts of shyness and not being quick-minded enough to know how to be social towards others.

To katie, yea I like my haircut, began going to a new place even though it's a bit more expensive Cool As far as dressing better, I've sort of done it in smaller ways, but it's hard to afford nice clothes only because just ONE nice shirt can set you back a good 40 bucks or more. I'm not at a place now where I have the liberty of spending too much money. The annoying jokes? ...yea ok, I think the problem is that I don't know which ones are annoying and which ones aren't, only because I like to try and make people laugh around me, and some appreciate them, while others don't, so I don't really know who to listen to and when. Oh, and when I talk to you on facebook next PLEASE don't say something like "sorry if I was blunt." Again, do not apologize, maybe if we lived closer a good kick might do the trick. I love you too katie, thanks
and to Death over Life - thanks for your breakdown, you helped a lot, gave me stuff to think about.

What is really the problem here is my general view of God and who God is. For some reason I have a very very difficult time believing that He's more loving than angry (or that He wants to bother continuing to love me after everything I've done), because nowhere in Scripture that I can remember does it say that He's "crazy about me," or "In love with me" or wants to have "a relationship" with me. But His anger is evident throughout. So every minute I actually DO want to be doing what God wants me to be doing, but given my perfectionist nature, I HATE messing up, I HATE making mistakes and I HATE doing things wrong... even small things - I remember about a week ago I attempted to make rice krispies treats for a small church group and I messed them up, they came out like rocks, I got so angry with myself as if this one little act determined me as a person. So given enough time one tends to become pretty bitter about always having to do things the right way ALL THE TIME for God or He will get angry, and hence in return one gets angry at God, and thus begins the frustrating relationship.
My problem is that I don't know how to stop these annoying personality quirks of mine - the envy, the perfectionism, the unbelief, etc. I also get frustrated with the fact that NOBODY around me seems to have these problems.

Dude, I am in a very similar situation. I get angry at myself all of the time because I feel like I am supposed to be perfect. When I mess up, I feel guilty, which in turn makes me angry at everything including towards God. I always feel like I have to do things by the book and every little detail must follow the law and everything.

Againsttheantichrist....I am sorry man but almost every post you have just makes me angry towards christians and christianity itself. Christianity isn't about all of this legalistic stuff that you seem to make it out to be. For one, please show me where it says in scripture that we are supposed to go to church every chance we have. I haven't seen one verse saying such a thing, and anything that would sound like that is usually referring to being with other christians in general, not actually going to a physical building to hear a sermon. Sorry if this seems like it is attacking you, but this is the kind of stuff that drives me away from christianity in general.
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:55 pm

God is a god of wrath because he is a God of love. There are things that love hates: adultery, murder, theft, jealousy, blasphemy, idolatry, etc. That's why humans go to hell: not because they're victims, but because they are bad and unloving, stone hearted monsters who aren't sorry except when they get in trouble. God gives some people a change of heart though, and puts his hatred over their sin elsewhere: on Christ on the cross. God chose some people who were all equally evil at heart to save, and gave them a change of heart. Jesus took the punishment re God's hatred of sin for his chosen people. When Jesus is your Lord, he takes responsibility for your sin, because he is your Lord. Obviously, that sin includes disobedience.

If an atheist says they were only in the faith because they were afraid of hell, then something is wrong. Either God never gave that person a change of heart, or they were trying to save themselves by their own faith in Jesus and 'repenting'. Being a 'real Christian' isnt determined by something you do. Holding up an umbrella doesn't make it rain. Jesus saves, and Jesus does the saving. He doesn't chuck a drowing person a rope which they have to hold on to for dear life. That rope would be going to church on Sunday, sincere belief, repentance, works, works, works...

Lose faith in your faith in Christ, and have faith in Christ instead. Your belief doesn't determine your salvation. Nothing from your side of the equation does.

May I recommend: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0981732151/ref=s9_simi_gw_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=102EE30XFXRX1Y975V1V&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846


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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:58 pm

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againsttheantichrist



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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:22 pm

vaterflaumig wrote:
Againsttheantichrist....I am sorry man but almost every post you have just makes me angry towards christians and christianity itself.

I'm doing my job then.

That is not saying that my job is pissing people off. My job is to minister and preach the gospel. It just happens that offending people comes along with that task. It's impossible to be a pastor/evangelist and not be offensive at the same time. If someone is not being offensive, or hasn't offended people that is in the ministry, they need to reexamine what they teach and see if it doesn't fall in line with scripture. Odds are it doesn't, because if it does, rest assured, you will be persecuted, you will be attacked, you will be verbally assaulted.

It's possible you may even die.

The gospel is offensive, and it will piss people off. It's the reality of scripture, and the reality that man is depraved, they don't want to leave sin, and will take offense to anything that tells them to do just that.

Quote :
Christianity isn't about all of this legalistic stuff that you seem to make it out to be.

Every time I hear the term legalistic/legalist in regards to Christianity, do you know what I first think of?

Humanism. America (as well as most of the West, with it spreading to the East more and more by the day), has warped God into such a loving character that He should give people many chances. That's not biblical, and one could argue it as being all-out heresy.

As I've said many times, if you want the guide of God, the Bible is all you need, but if you want to understand that guide, that one bible alone is not going to cut it. Compare it to the Greek/Hebrew, compare it to history, see what the original writers meant by what they said.

Quote :
For one, please show me where it says in scripture that we are supposed to go to church every chance we have. I haven't seen one verse saying such a thing, and anything that would sound like that is usually referring to being with other christians in general, not actually going to a physical building to hear a sermon. Sorry if this seems like it is attacking you, but this is the kind of stuff that drives me away from christianity in general.

This website will probably give what you're looking for.

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=466
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:24 pm

againsttheantichrist wrote:
That is not saying that my job is pissing people off. My job is to minister and preach the gospel.

Tell me: what is the gospel, and what comes first: repentance and faith, or the new birth?

Do you have to do anything to be saved?
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:30 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
againsttheantichrist wrote:
That is not saying that my job is pissing people off. My job is to minister and preach the gospel.

Tell me: what is the gospel, and what comes first: repentance and faith, or the new birth?

New birth. You can't repent or gain faith unless god works in you first.

As for the other question, do you want the long and detailed, or short and general version?

EDIT: Didn't see your edit. Nothing by man's hands can be done to bring salvation.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:39 pm

againsttheantichrist wrote:
As for the other question, do you want the long and detailed, or short and general version?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you — unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,


I guess the long version would simply be going into detail the 'accordance with the scriptures' part. Eg., what is sin? But Christ dying for our sins, buried and resurrection is the gospel. Not just dying for us as an example either, as something to spur us to religiosity. Not just dying for most of our sins but where our sincerity closes the gap.


Last edited by wiremu.white on Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:44 pm

againsttheantichrist wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
Againsttheantichrist....I am sorry man but almost every post you have just makes me angry towards christians and christianity itself.

I'm doing my job then.

That is not saying that my job is pissing people off. My job is to minister and preach the gospel. It just happens that offending people comes along with that task. It's impossible to be a pastor/evangelist and not be offensive at the same time. If someone is not being offensive, or hasn't offended people that is in the ministry, they need to reexamine what they teach and see if it doesn't fall in line with scripture. Odds are it doesn't, because if it does, rest assured, you will be persecuted, you will be attacked, you will be verbally assaulted.

It's possible you may even die.

The gospel is offensive, and it will piss people off. It's the reality of scripture, and the reality that man is depraved, they don't want to leave sin, and will take offense to anything that tells them to do just that.

Quote :
Christianity isn't about all of this legalistic stuff that you seem to make it out to be.

Every time I hear the term legalistic/legalist in regards to Christianity, do you know what I first think of?

Humanism. America (as well as most of the West, with it spreading to the East more and more by the day), has warped God into such a loving character that He should give people many chances. That's not biblical, and one could argue it as being all-out heresy.

As I've said many times, if you want the guide of God, the Bible is all you need, but if you want to understand that guide, that one bible alone is not going to cut it. Compare it to the Greek/Hebrew, compare it to history, see what the original writers meant by what they said.

Quote :
For one, please show me where it says in scripture that we are supposed to go to church every chance we have. I haven't seen one verse saying such a thing, and anything that would sound like that is usually referring to being with other christians in general, not actually going to a physical building to hear a sermon. Sorry if this seems like it is attacking you, but this is the kind of stuff that drives me away from christianity in general.

This website will probably give what you're looking for.

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=466


No, what you are expressing to everyone is phariseeism. What you are doing is judging everyone and telling them that they have to do this because it is what your church and specific belief system says is correct. I do agree that you have to pay a tithe, but nowhere does it say in anything that you just showed me that you have to go to church every chance you get. What it says is that you have to have a relationship with other christians and have communion with them. In other words, have friendship with other christians and seek their advice and grow up spiritually with them, that doesn't mean you have to go to a church. In the actual gospels you will see many versus saying Jesus went to the synagogue on the sabbath because it was His custom, not law.
You say that you are glad that you are offending people and making people scared and what not. Do you think that is what Jesus was doing? I can tell you now that it isn't, in fact He went off on the people who were doing such a thing, Pharisees, who are all throughout churches in the entire world. Jesus gave hope and spoke of wonderful things, not eternal punishment and damnation like much of what I hear from you. What you bring to the table is Law, and outcome of the Law is death.
You portray God as a legalistic Judge who saves people just so that they would worship Him instead of have a relationship with Him, atleast that is what I get from most of your posts. You tell us that we have to re-read scripture because we have it wrong all of the time, you should try doing the same thing with more of an opened mind, and drop the legal aspects of what the bible says. The law is meant to teach us, not be a source of bondage. /rant
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:59 pm

vaterflaumig wrote:
You say that you are glad that you are offending people and making people scared and what not. Do you think that is what Jesus was doing?

I do. Not all he was doing, mind.

vaterflaumig wrote:
I can tell you now that it isn't, in fact He went off on the people who were doing such a thing, Pharisees, who are all throughout churches in the entire world. Jesus gave hope and spoke of wonderful things, not eternal punishment and damnation like much of what I hear from you. What you bring to the table is Law, and outcome of the Law is death.

Jesus talked more about hell and damnation than anyone else.

That said, saying what Christians have to do would be wrong. A converted person doesn't have a list of have-tos; the heart is changed and besides Jesus has already fulfilled all legal requirements for your salvation. It's about what you get to do or want to do, at least on your deepest level (there is indwelling sin, but this isnt your deepest desire). No one ever gets saved without also having a change of heart re sin and God.

Pharisees are all about checklists and acting, but not about a change of heart.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Quote :
You say that you are glad that you are offending people and making people scared and what not.

I'm not sure where you got that from, but it was never said in my post, directly or indirectly, nor was it implied. I said it came with the job, I never said I enjoyed doing it. I hate doing it, but my loyalty is to God, and if it means offending people to do what he has commanded me to do, then thy will be done.

I'll be back to respond more soon. I got several things that I need to get completed this evening.
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:16 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
You say that you are glad that you are offending people and making people scared and what not. Do you think that is what Jesus was doing?

I do. Not all he was doing, mind.

vaterflaumig wrote:
I can tell you now that it isn't, in fact He went off on the people who were doing such a thing, Pharisees, who are all throughout churches in the entire world. Jesus gave hope and spoke of wonderful things, not eternal punishment and damnation like much of what I hear from you. What you bring to the table is Law, and outcome of the Law is death.

Jesus talked more about hell and damnation than anyone else.

That said, saying what Christians have to do would be wrong. A converted person doesn't have a list of have-tos; the heart is changed and besides Jesus has already fulfilled all legal requirements for your salvation. It's about what you get to do or want to do, at least on your deepest level (there is indwelling sin, but this isnt your deepest desire). No one ever gets saved without also having a change of heart re sin and God.

My comment wasn't pointed at you by the way, please don't think it was.
Yes, Jesus was saying that you should fear God who can send you to hell, but that wasn't the main point of His message. But most of what He was saying were about the things that God does for you and will do for you if you trust in Him to do so. God wants us to look to Him continuously for guidance and instruction, not go off of what scripture says all of the time. "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" kind of thing.
I did speak incorrectly with some of that post I do admit, I was just a bit angry at the time.

As far as a change of heart and "what you get to do". I will admit that I did change after becoming a serious christian yes, but it was mostly how I view certain sin and certain beliefs I have always had prior to christianity. I don't look at most of christianity as "what I get to do", I tend to view it more as "what I have to do", I don't want to be this way however. My heart hasn't been changed in that way if that is what you are referring to, this has been a subject of a lot of depression for me in the past few months, because I feel really bad about it. Other people on this forum will say that they don't see a change in heart in themselves as well.

What I am starting to believe is that for some, a change of heart may come right away, after choosing Christ. But for some, it may take place over time and trust that He is working within you.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:18 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
God is a god of wrath because he is a God of love.
This.

This is the way I understand it: The wrath of God is the full weight of His being brought against that which destroys the object of His affection. God's wrath is poured out on sin because sin destroys His children. It's not that God is angry at His children, but because He loves them He administers the chemotherapy of His wrath against their disease of sin.

That said, not everything you're going through is a result of God's wrath, and not everything that is wrath is a response to your sin. For his whole life, Jesus had to deal with some serious stuff: Poverty, splinters, injustice, oppression, rejection, family strife, death, and on and on. But none of that was His fault, and none of it meant God didn't love Him. God never stopped loving Him even as He was drinking to the dregs the full measure of wrath poured out for the sins of the world.

In the same way, even though you might be experiencing a small measure of righteous wrath and also some things that aren't your fault, God still loves you as His own child.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:22 pm

There is nothing more wrathful thatn love.

If you don't have love.. you are likely to never get wrathful.

So of course a God of love would also be a God of wrath.
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PostSubject: Re: God of love or God of wrath?   Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:37 pm

My bro sergio, you know this is more about stuff in yourself that you ain't cool with.... God is not at fault for this.. He loves you and wants to help you, not make it harder and harder for you.

I'm glad you have a new hair cut Smile

Keep looking at the things that are cropping up: like the krispie things, you got angry about them stufffing up... I don't really do that myself, I would have just bought some nice cookies Smile and try again another time. Anger.... is a key thing, ...Perfection.... unrealistic expectations... hurt.... unfulfilled desires. Smash these all together and you get what's happening for you atm. The people in your small group wanna see the true sergio- and I know you would love some friends who could see this often and be able to hang with them often-, with real emotions... less jokes ;-), who listens and can be chill and can laugh off a failed attempt to make a treat for the group.

Keep rocking bro and keep working on what you can.
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