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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:27 am

Dudes ..... He's God. I want you to go do an experiment and ask 3 friends that are not Christians if they ever heard someone talk about salvation

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:19 pm

wizardovmetal wrote:
if god is all powerful he never HAS to send someone to hell
secondly an all powerful inhuman god shouldnt have "human tendencies" of wrath and anger
also if people who didnt know about god went to hell then all the ancient hindus went to hell because they have been around 50,000 years whilst god never showed up till some 6000 years ago
what an evil sick midned god what gives him the right to show up late and let all those people go to hell?
God has been around for eternity, He didn't start to show up.
People started writing about Him a couple of thousand years ago yes.
And it's only according to Young Earth stuff that the earth is 6000y old.

I think the verse Metl is looking for is the one where it is told that every man has the law in him as his consience or something, I also can't recall where or what exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:25 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Dudes ..... He's God. I want you to go do an experiment and ask 3 friends that are not Christians if they ever heard someone talk about salvation

Most of my friends are American. If I polled people from a less religion-saturated country like Japan, the results would be radically different.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:00 pm

Nah, I don't think so. at least not radically.
Maybe on some islands or in african/south-american tribes, yes, but 90% of the world has at one point or another been exposed to christianity (whether it was in a good or bad way is left aside). And you can be assured that this has seen oral transmission (or whatever you call it in English) throughout the ages in their community/city/groups
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:43 pm

I don't think that knowing a few basic things about Christianity is enough to accept or reject its God.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:47 pm

One thing that I think a lot of you are missing with this whole exposure to God thing is that only the people whom God has chosen since the beginning of time will actually hear and understand the message of salvation. You hear all of the time in the gospels about "blessed are your hears because they hear" or "blessed are your eyes because they see", or something like that. There are those whose heart just won't accept the gospel because that is the way that they are. I know plenty of people who will not accept christianity just because it sounds ridiculous or they are uninterested. Then you also have the people who are in different religions and have their form of salvation who think they are 100% percent right and will not be swayed away.
Christianity is not meant for everyone, just because you hear about it does not mean that you will accept it. Only the ones whom God has chosen will actually accept it, understand, and then live it out successfully. Not even everyone within Christianity itself is meant for it. There are versus within the new testament that point this out, especially in the epistles.
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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:51 pm

vaterflaumig wrote:
One thing that I think a lot of you are missing with this whole exposure to God thing is that only the people whom God has chosen since the beginning of time will actually hear and understand the message of salvation. You hear all of the time in the gospels about "blessed are your hears because they hear" or "blessed are your eyes because they see", or something like that. There are those whose heart just won't accept the gospel because that is the way that they are. I know plenty of people who will not accept christianity just because it sounds ridiculous or they are uninterested. Then you also have the people who are in different religions and have their form of salvation who think they are 100% percent right and will not be swayed away.
Christianity is not meant for everyone, just because you hear about it does not mean that you will accept it. Only the ones whom God has chosen will actually accept it, understand, and then live it out successfully. Not even everyone within Christianity itself is meant for it. There are versus within the new testament that point this out, especially in the epistles.
I really don't want to get in this debate again. We had a big long thread about this topic awhile back.

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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:16 pm

To begin, I heavily apologize for the delay in this portion of the many debates that have spawned from such a video.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
Death over Life wrote:
biblical evidence to support how the Hell of the bible is different than the Hell in this video?

Simply put: Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
well yeah I agree there, it's the lake of fire that is eternal, i thought you mean that Hell was diffenrent by how it is like.

Thing is we agree and disagree. We agree that the unsaved will be going through pain and torture, but that is about where it ends. I know as I used to believe what the vid showed. After researching on it, I no longer hold to the Traditional Hell theology.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :
Then on Tartaros, even a simplistic wikipedia has revealed that to me. It was however solidified by other sources, that atm I'm still researching on.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaros

If you refuse the article, then here is the verse: 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."
Ok according to that article, your idea of this Tartorus comes form Greekk mythology, automatically lessening its credinility to me. Now how can you prove that Tartarus is jsut not another name in Hell. There are numerous different things in the bible that are given multple names.

Wait, so 2nd Peter in the New Testament is Greek Mythology!? If so, then what is that Book doing in the Bible? I did prove how it is different, but you didn't read the parts on the New Testament and Christianity. Notice, it is written only once in the entire Bible, and notice where it also is translated as Abyss in Revelation. Notice how both ONLY deal with angels. There are NO unbelievers or even humans in said area. If you don't like what I am saying here, then as you requested of me, I'd like to see some Scriptures.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :
As for the rest, I am not denying hell being a place of torment, as scriptures did say where there will be gnashing of teeth. However, many places have hell in place of:
Sheol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
Gehenna: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades
I would just give the same answer I did about Tartaros

We did talk about this and you did admit you didn't read these. So, I shall allow you to read about them all, then come back and inform me of what you read. Please don't read the Mythology stuff, read the Christianity portions of it.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :
You are correct, that isn't what I'm saying. I am not saying you get out of the Lake of Fire once cast in. I am saying that you will not be eternally tormented in pain forever. The Lake of Fire destroys and swallows up death and Hell so they no longer exist. This is how we obtain true immortality. This goes back to Christ destroying death. But the Lake of Fire is where death will no longer exists. What most Christians will not teach about it though is, where that happens to death, the exact same fate is that of Hell, which consists of the lost souls if Hell is the correct word for this verse. So, when Hell is destroyed where it no longer exists, so will all those souls that dwell in it be, just like death. That Revelation text put it plain and clear from my eyes.
Ok I see you were getting at here. Yeah I agree it's the Lake of Fire that is Eternal.

Agreed so we will end that portion.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :
After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.
I'm not sure I understand the last 2 sentences in this paragraph, can you please elaborate?

It was the words of Jesus Christ himself: I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. So if you want to get technical, Christianity is about Christ himself. This is where it begins and ends, with Christ, not with reward or punishment or life or death. I hope you understand what I meant here.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Quote :
Anytime Metl. I hope these links and my views help inform you and/or reveal something that you may have never seen or thought of.
you are correct, I haven't heard this view before until today, neither do I agree with it, but it is an interesting conversation.

Anytime. Glad to have shown you some enlightenment here. That is what this is all about in the end, iron sharpening iron. I look forward to continuing this discussion. Thank you very much! \m/
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:25 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
One thing that I think a lot of you are missing with this whole exposure to God thing is that only the people whom God has chosen since the beginning of time will actually hear and understand the message of salvation. You hear all of the time in the gospels about "blessed are your hears because they hear" or "blessed are your eyes because they see", or something like that. There are those whose heart just won't accept the gospel because that is the way that they are. I know plenty of people who will not accept christianity just because it sounds ridiculous or they are uninterested. Then you also have the people who are in different religions and have their form of salvation who think they are 100% percent right and will not be swayed away.
Christianity is not meant for everyone, just because you hear about it does not mean that you will accept it. Only the ones whom God has chosen will actually accept it, understand, and then live it out successfully. Not even everyone within Christianity itself is meant for it. There are versus within the new testament that point this out, especially in the epistles.
I really don't want to get in this debate again. We had a big long thread about this topic awhile back.

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MetalMatt

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:40 pm

vaterflaumig wrote:
MetLHed4GZus wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
One thing that I think a lot of you are missing with this whole exposure to God thing is that only the people whom God has chosen since the beginning of time will actually hear and understand the message of salvation. You hear all of the time in the gospels about "blessed are your hears because they hear" or "blessed are your eyes because they see", or something like that. There are those whose heart just won't accept the gospel because that is the way that they are. I know plenty of people who will not accept christianity just because it sounds ridiculous or they are uninterested. Then you also have the people who are in different religions and have their form of salvation who think they are 100% percent right and will not be swayed away.
Christianity is not meant for everyone, just because you hear about it does not mean that you will accept it. Only the ones whom God has chosen will actually accept it, understand, and then live it out successfully. Not even everyone within Christianity itself is meant for it. There are versus within the new testament that point this out, especially in the epistles.
I really don't want to get in this debate again. We had a big long thread about this topic awhile back.

Don't you me....no one s me!
the wasn't directed at you, the was directed at the fact that that doctrine was getting brought up again lol

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:47 pm

Quote :

Wait, so 2nd Peter in the New Testament is Greek Mythology!? If so, then what is that Book doing in the Bible? I did prove how it is different, but you didn't read the parts on the New Testament and Christianity. Notice, it is written only once in the entire Bible, and notice where it also is translated as Abyss in Revelation. Notice how both ONLY deal with angels. There are NO unbelievers or even humans in said area. If you don't like what I am saying here, then as you requested of me, I'd like to see some Scriptures.
I was jsut going by what the article you provided said. It talked about the idea being rooted in greek mythology, maybe the source you gave isn't the most reliable one?


Quote :

We did talk about this and you did admit you didn't read these. So, I shall allow you to read about them all, then come back and inform me of what you read. Please don't read the Mythology stuff, read the Christianity portions of it.
I did skim through them a bit, just not as in depth as the Tartorus ones, but I did look at the ma bit more, and I still beleive I stand by the same answer I provided last time





Quote :
It was the words of Jesus Christ himself: I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. So if you want to get technical, Christianity is about Christ himself. This is where it begins and ends, with Christ, not with reward or punishment or life or death. I hope you understand what I meant here.
In a way yes, but I believe it to be a little more deeper, I beleive Christianit is about a realationship with Christ

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:57 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
I don't think that knowing a few basic things about Christianity is enough to accept or reject its God.
It is.
When you read Mark, Luke, Matthew or John and even Acts, you read about people getting baptised or accepting God/Jesus as Son of God through stories and witnesses, it's being convinced. It doesn't take much. The hard part is maintaining the "difficult" lifestyle
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:00 pm

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
MetLHed4GZus wrote:
vaterflaumig wrote:
One thing that I think a lot of you are missing with this whole exposure to God thing is that only the people whom God has chosen since the beginning of time will actually hear and understand the message of salvation. You hear all of the time in the gospels about "blessed are your hears because they hear" or "blessed are your eyes because they see", or something like that. There are those whose heart just won't accept the gospel because that is the way that they are. I know plenty of people who will not accept christianity just because it sounds ridiculous or they are uninterested. Then you also have the people who are in different religions and have their form of salvation who think they are 100% percent right and will not be swayed away.
Christianity is not meant for everyone, just because you hear about it does not mean that you will accept it. Only the ones whom God has chosen will actually accept it, understand, and then live it out successfully. Not even everyone within Christianity itself is meant for it. There are versus within the new testament that point this out, especially in the epistles.
I really don't want to get in this debate again. We had a big long thread about this topic awhile back.

Don't you me....no one s me!
the wasn't directed at you, the was directed at the fact that that doctrine was getting brought up again lol


good....... bigwack
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:12 pm

I have mixed feelings abouts this video (at least as much as I sat through)

I feel both convicted, yet at the same time feel puzzled as I think everyone is predestined and elect by God anyway. Read Romans 9.

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:19 pm

Matt wrote:
LastFirstborn wrote:
I don't think that knowing a few basic things about Christianity is enough to accept or reject its God.
It is.
When you read Mark, Luke, Matthew or John and even Acts, you read about people getting baptised or accepting God/Jesus as Son of God through stories and witnesses, it's being convinced. It doesn't take much. The hard part is maintaining the "difficult" lifestyle

Funny thing is, the lifestyle is actually one of the easiest things you could ever do. The problem is, the church scene has made said lifestyle next to impossible to be able to follow. There is a reason why Christ said his burden is light and yoke is easy.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:34 am

wiremu.white wrote:
I have mixed feelings abouts this video (at least as much as I sat through)

I feel both convicted, yet at the same time feel puzzled as I think everyone is predestined and elect by God anyway. Read Romans 9.

I really wish we wouldn't start the predestination debate here, if you want make another thread for it please

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:23 am

wiremu.white wrote:

I know I would sentence my creations to suffer in flames for eternity if they refused to worship me. That's love! Not.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:48 am

LastFirstborn wrote:

I know I would sentence my creations to suffer in flames for eternity if they refused to worship me. That's love! Not.
Joey, what do parents do? They love their children with all their hearts, or at least suppose to, do they also have to punish their kids yes, else that would not be good parenting. They do not delight in punishing either. Well God is our heavenly father, he loves us more than we can ever love ourselves, but he has to punish us, he has a standard that has to be met, and if he doesnt punish those who don't follow his standard, theres really no point in our morality, why would we resist doing things god hates? Same with our earthly parents, why would we ever lsiten to them if there was no punishment involved? Now like a parent like I said who doesnt delight in punishing their children, neither does God, god by no means wants to punish his children. "I desire for no man to perish". But God is jsut and cannot allow anyone into his kingdom who doesn't meet his standard.





BTW, i love how there is like 2 billion (exaggerated number I know) different discussions going on at the same time in this thread haha

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:08 am

Well, if I were a daddy, I wouldn't punish my spawn with unthinkable suffering forever. That's just me.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:10 am

MetLHed4GZus wrote:
LastFirstborn wrote:

I know I would sentence my creations to suffer in flames for eternity if they refused to worship me. That's love! Not.
Joey, what do parents do? They love their children with all their hearts, or at least suppose to, do they also have to punish their kids yes, else that would not be good parenting. They do not delight in punishing either. Well God is our heavenly father, he loves us more than we can ever love ourselves, but he has to punish us, he has a standard that has to be met, and if he doesnt punish those who don't follow his standard, theres really no point in our morality, why would we resist doing things god hates? Same with our earthly parents, why would we ever lsiten to them if there was no punishment involved? Now like a parent like I said who doesnt delight in punishing their children, neither does God, god by no means wants to punish his children. "I desire for no man to perish". But God is jsut and cannot allow anyone into his kingdom who doesn't meet his standard.





BTW, i love how there is like 2 billion (exaggerated number I know) different discussions going on at the same time in this thread haha

I think the point he is trying to make is.....if God loves everyone with all of His heart, why would He sentence someone to the mose painful existence forever just because they decided to not be with Him.
Would a father kill his son for leaving him and not returning?

This is a question that I have been dealing with as well.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:20 am

Even euthanasia would be more merciful than torture.
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:08 am

For Lastfirstborn's comments, I heavily empathize with them. I do and can understand where he is coming from. I myself may even believe what he said, but at the same time, I don't hold to this eternal punishment evil dictator God.

As I've said so many times, God is a God of Life and Death, not reward or punishment. If God is purely about reward and punishment, then he would be evil and dictative, but he's not. To be honest, I too would despise a God where I get his favor for bending over and kissing his buttocks while those I truly love go be tortured forever because they didn't bend over.

Look, Christ came to save us from death, not from being punished. Punishment is called the Lake of Fire. But they aren't going to be tortured for eternity because they didn't kiss the buttocks of God. God came for us to have eternal life, and without Christ, we don't have eternal life. This beleif of inherent eternal life is not Biblical, all it took was simplistic reading to see that.

I am an artist, and I very well personally know and understand what Lastfirstborn is saying 1st hand. How I know of this is because, I myself have created made up fantasy creatures in a made up existence and created made up stories and events within this timeplot. Thing is, with every creature created, good or evil, tells and informs the people about the creator (that being me). From the creations I personally love each and every one of them to death as if they were real and my own. Now this therein lies the beauty of the Creator. If there is something I don't like about the story or character or event, I take the eraser and change it. I give the creatures their personality, whether they be for or against the made up authorities or gods in this realm or whatever. The one and only thing that I can think of in all of this that is different is, God was able to give us free will. As much as I can and wish and would wish to, my made up characters aren't living or breathing, so it is impossible for me to give them free will.

So, I look at this from God's perspective if I did give them free will. So, a character I made with all that I gave it now can think for itself rather than I dictate the creature. So, with that being said, it uses it's free will to destroy every creation and it's creator. Despite the fact that it attempts this, I still love it to death, but I would have to do SOMETHING in order to protect the rest of the creatures who in return love me with their free will. So, no matter how much I love my creation, the creator has to do something despite the love lest the Deicide is success and everything is thrown into damnation.

If you are not an art person, another thing that I think about it the family structure. Let us say you are the parent of an imperfect child you Truly love to death. Then randomly one night, you with all your love and might have that same child of yours with a loaded shotgun in their hand pointing it at you ready to destroy you and you only have a few seconds to react before they successfully kill you. Would you allow that child to commit the murder and thus throw everything into damnation and destruction or would you destroy that so you can save everybody else who chose to love?

Some interesting thoughts to ponder. I can heavily empathize with LastFirstborn, but at the same time, even if I don't understand it, there is a specific reason why God did create the process of love=life and sin=death (not punishment).
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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:27 am

Death over Life wrote:
For Lastfirstborn's comments, I heavily empathize with them. I do and can understand where he is coming from. I myself may even believe what he said, but at the same time, I don't hold to this eternal punishment evil dictator God.

As I've said so many times, God is a God of Life and Death, not reward or punishment. If God is purely about reward and punishment, then he would be evil and dictative, but he's not. To be honest, I too would despise a God where I get his favor for bending over and kissing his buttocks while those I truly love go be tortured forever because they didn't bend over.

Look, Christ came to save us from death, not from being punished. Punishment is called the Lake of Fire. But they aren't going to be tortured for eternity because they didn't kiss the buttocks of God. God came for us to have eternal life, and without Christ, we don't have eternal life. This beleif of inherent eternal life is not Biblical, all it took was simplistic reading to see that.

I am an artist, and I very well personally know and understand what Lastfirstborn is saying 1st hand. How I know of this is because, I myself have created made up fantasy creatures in a made up existence and created made up stories and events within this timeplot. Thing is, with every creature created, good or evil, tells and informs the people about the creator (that being me). From the creations I personally love each and every one of them to death as if they were real and my own. Now this therein lies the beauty of the Creator. If there is something I don't like about the story or character or event, I take the eraser and change it. I give the creatures their personality, whether they be for or against the made up authorities or gods in this realm or whatever. The one and only thing that I can think of in all of this that is different is, God was able to give us free will. As much as I can and wish and would wish to, my made up characters aren't living or breathing, so it is impossible for me to give them free will.

So, I look at this from God's perspective if I did give them free will. So, a character I made with all that I gave it now can think for itself rather than I dictate the creature. So, with that being said, it uses it's free will to destroy every creation and it's creator. Despite the fact that it attempts this, I still love it to death, but I would have to do SOMETHING in order to protect the rest of the creatures who in return love me with their free will. So, no matter how much I love my creation, the creator has to do something despite the love lest the Deicide is success and everything is thrown into damnation.

If you are not an art person, another thing that I think about it the family structure. Let us say you are the parent of an imperfect child you Truly love to death. Then randomly one night, you with all your love and might have that same child of yours with a loaded shotgun in their hand pointing it at you ready to destroy you and you only have a few seconds to react before they successfully kill you. Would you allow that child to commit the murder and thus throw everything into damnation and destruction or would you destroy that so you can save everybody else who chose to love?

Some interesting thoughts to ponder. I can heavily empathize with LastFirstborn, but at the same time, even if I don't understand it, there is a specific reason why God did create the process of love=life and sin=death (not punishment).

Are you saying that God doesn't punish people?
If so then what about half of the old testament where it is describing what He is going to do to Israel, or what He did to David after Batsheba.
Plus, isn't judgement day and how so many people will die in the tribulation actually punishment for the sins of the unbelievers and the sins of those who came before them?
I have supported your statements in the past, but this one I have trouble seeing as backed by scripture.
There is even a verse in the old testament, I can't remember where however, that says God loves justice. Part of justice is delivering punishment where it is due.
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Death over Life

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:37 am

Apparantly, you never read when I wrote this to Metl:

Quote :
After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.

and

Quote :
It was the words of Jesus Christ himself: I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. So if you want to get technical, Christianity is about Christ himself. This is where it begins and ends, with Christ, not with reward or punishment or life or death. I hope you understand what I meant here.

I'm not denying God punishing people because he does. I'm informing that simply eternally punishing people doesn't end at eternally punishing people for those who reject God. I was also implying that I empathize with LastFirstborn's claims.

Damn, I try to be informative and helpful instead of ranting and all people do is twist things out of context to try and combat me instead.
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vaterflaumig

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PostSubject: Re: A Video I think all Christians should watch   Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:40 am

Death over Life wrote:
Apparantly, you never read when I wrote this to Metl:

Quote :
After reading the verses, I believe you misunderstood. We are in agreement here, and yes, despite Christianity is NOT about reward or punishment, this is still something God does. God does reward and punish. However, that is not where God or Life ends with. It goes on despite rewards and punishments.

and

Quote :
It was the words of Jesus Christ himself: I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. So if you want to get technical, Christianity is about Christ himself. This is where it begins and ends, with Christ, not with reward or punishment or life or death. I hope you understand what I meant here.

I'm not denying God punishing people because he does. I'm informing that simply eternally punishing people doesn't end at eternally punishing people for those who reject God. I was also implying that I empathize with LastFirstborn's claims.

Damn, I try to be informative and helpful instead of ranting and all people do is twist things out of context to try and combat me instead.

Ya sorry, I did sound like I was kind of attacking you.
This is a bit of a touchy subject with me as of late so I took it too far.
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