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 The two visions of Daniel's Empires

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lord voldemort

lord voldemort

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The two visions of Daniel's Empires Vide
PostSubject: The two visions of Daniel's Empires   The two visions of Daniel's Empires Icon_minitime1Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:49 pm

Quote :
Dan 2:30 "But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me for any wisdom residing in me more than in any other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.
Dan 2:31 "You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome.
Dan 2:32 "The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,
Dan 2:33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
Dan 2:34 "You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.
Dan 2:35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:36 "This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.
Dan 2:37 "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory;
Dan 2:38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.
Dan 2:39 "After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.
Dan 2:41 "In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.
Dan 2:42 "As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
Dan 2:43 "And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
Dan 2:44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
Dan 2:45 "Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."

Many traditional interpretations take this to be four empires. I will point them out.

1. The gold head: Is Babylon. In the seven empire spectrum it is the third of seven. Egypt and Assyria being the two previous ones.

2. The silver arms/chest: is Medo-Persia.

3. The Bronze mid-section is Macedonia.

4. The Iron and Iron/clay: Rome.

The above is the traditional take. Four empires. This is why many traditional takes on Revelation point to Rome being the Beast of Rev. 13.

My take is a bit different. Due to how history played out, I think the statue is more detailed, and that it is hidden in the details.

1. The first one is Babylon. There is no two-way about that.
2. The second one is Persia, again there is no dispute. "its breast and its arms of silver". The Arms of Silver would be the Duality of the Medo-Persian. The Breast of Silver would be the unity of the two into the Persian Empire.
The third one is where I start my dispute:
3. The third one is Macedonia, but I will also include Rome into it. Due to the merger of the Hellenistic world. Rome and Greece are grouped together in many respects. Greek Culutre did not die, as Persian and Babylonian did after their defeat, Greek culture permeated the Eastern and especially the Western World, especially Rome. "its belly and its thighs of bronze", the belly when defined has a quartered look, which would or could describe the Greek empire breaking into four parts. And the two thighs would be Rome, breaking into two empires, Rome West and Byzantine East.
4. The fourth kingdom would be the Ottoman Empire. "its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay." The Duality of the descriptions shows that there is a distinction between the two.

The legs of iron would be the Ottoman Empire, the Beast from the Sea (Chap. 13).
The Feet of Iron and Clay would be the Beast from the Abyss (Chap. 9,11,17,18,20)
Quote :

Dan 7:2 Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.
Dan 7:3 "And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another.
Dan 7:4 "The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.
Dan 7:5 "And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!'
Dan 7:6 "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
Dan 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
Dan 7:10 "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
Dan 7:12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
Dan 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
Dan 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Quote :
Dan 7:17 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.

The four beast are four kingdoms. Due to the timing of the vision, I dispute the traditional understanding, I will explain below, but this is the traditional understanding of it.

The four kingdoms are seen as the statue: Babylon, Persia, Macedonia and Rome. Again, this is why many of them believe the Beast of Chap. 13 is Roman in origin, even if they believe it is future.

I view the four beast as followed: Persia is the first one. Macedonia is the second one. Rome is the Third one. The Ottoman Empire is the fourth one.

Quote :
Dan 7:4 "The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.

The traditional meaning is that this is Babylon. The reason is because it is the first one in Chapter 2 and because of the phrase "A human mind was given to it", based on Nebuchadnezzar acting like a animal and then having his mind restored.

The reason I disagree is because the description of the Lion with Eagles wing is seen within Persia, one of the kings is depicted as a lion with eagles wings.
But, Babylon also had a depiction of a lion with eagles wings, so the conclusion is based off how one sees the timing of the first beast.

Quote :
Dan 7:5 "And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!'

Tradition takes this to be Persia and the three ribs are seen as the three major providence's that they conquered. Babylon, Assyria and Asia Minor (Lydia).

I take it to be Macedonia and the three ribs being the three battles that Alexander fought against Darius. Battle of the Granicus, Battle of Issus and Battle of Gaugamela.

Quote :
Dan 7:6 "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Traditional is this is Macedonia. The four heads are seen as the four parts of the Macedonian empire breaking up: The Ptolemaic, the Selecuid, the Lysimachian, and Macedonia under Cassander.

I view the four heads to be: Julius Caesar, Pomey Magnus, Lucius Cornelius Sulla and Augustus Caesar. The four men did more to form the Roman Empire.

Quote :
Dan 7:7 "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

The reason I do not view this to be Rome, is because the make up of this beast in Rev. 13 is made up of the three previous empires:

Quote :
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Since Rome is already in power, to me it makes no sense for this to be Rome, considering:

Quote :
Rev 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
Rev 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.


If you line this up, than Egypt and Assyria are the two previous ones before Babylon. So Babylon is the Head of Gold, empire number three. Persia being number four (Silver, first beast). Macedonia being Five (Bronze midsection, second beast), Rome being six (bronze Thighs, third beast). The Beast of Revelation 13, the Fourth Beast and the iron legs, the Ottoman Empire, Number seven. The Beast from the Abyss being the ten king confederacy, the iron and clay feet/toes, being empire number eight.

I hope this explains my view better and in more detail, to see the logic of how I arrive at my conclusion.
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lord voldemort

lord voldemort

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The two visions of Daniel's Empires Vide
PostSubject: Re: The two visions of Daniel's Empires   The two visions of Daniel's Empires Icon_minitime1Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:53 pm

As the discussion grows, I will add more to it.
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Kamerad Ash

Kamerad Ash

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The two visions of Daniel's Empires Vide
PostSubject: Re: The two visions of Daniel's Empires   The two visions of Daniel's Empires Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:32 am

Astronomical symbolism predates the written word and is used alot in prophecy.

If one wants to understand an ancient wise man's future prophecies ( liek Daniel).. one must understand that ancient man's "reference point" of lore. But for modern Christian theologians.. this lore is hidden and forgotten.. and extremely un-politically correct.


The Bear, the Eagle..etc all have ancient astrological and astronomical meanings which carry very interesting significance should one consider it.

Also, Daniel.. being an educated ancient.. woudl have been educated in the tradition of astronomiocal history and lore. Something that is relevant to his writings, imo.

Remember.. before the written words.. that is how men passed on the story of their lives and of the whole world. . through astronomy. Through the constellations and the stars and what they represent and how they affect the world.


Empires, as we know them.. from the view of a modern man's revisionist history.. are much more than mere kingdoms of cultural domination that rise and fell throughout history. They are what we call Ages, and an Age always has a unique spirit too it.. and is always Astrological as well. They are written of in the stars, as it were.. were I believe God has written the history of what is to come and what has come. For the creation shows forth the handiwork of it's creator.

Ages span the time of many of empires and kings.. and are not synonymous with any one empire.. whether it be Roman, Persian, Sumerian.. or whatever.

And Ages are Always represented by movement ogthe Constellations through the heavens.. and the Constellations all have their Beast ( whether it be the bear, the scropion, the dragon, the lion, etc..)

These Constellation Beasts all possess unique "spirits".. which are the spirits of the Age that they purport too. They also have gods that rule over them... what we as CHristians would call Angelic powers and Beings.

Something to consider that is an Ancient forgotten lore.. should one want to consider it in relation to biblical prophecy.. which comes fom the mind of the ancient sages.( like daniel), who were all educated in this aforementioned lore.

It is this ancient education in reading the stars and constellations.. that is forgotten in modern academics.. that allowed ancient people's form all over the globe to foretell long into the future.. the coming of Ages and of people and of events.. as we see with the Mayans , Aztecs.. Babylonians... and even native American tribes, etc.

We even see an example in Christ' birth.. that the wise men ( men who were educated in the lore of the stars)... followed the same "star" to bethlehem to witness the birth of the messiah. Bringing gifts.. they then mysteriously disappear from mention.. as men who no doubt saw the world form teh outside looking in.

So when examining subjects like the beasts of prophecy.. all with their unique descriptions.. one must not look merely at which short lived cultural empire he can draw correlations too... but rather which Age.. represented in the heavens by Beasts and elements and Principalities.. that are blatantly being referred too using that ancient lore of astornomy that is currently forgotten// yet which would have been known well by Daniel.
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The two visions of Daniel's Empires Vide
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