FireProphet wrote:

Dag, I missed a lot here. Buncha haters. Except Katie. Marry me.
And Phil I guess. You don't marry me, though. I'm just saying, you're nicely level headed when discussing this kind of stuff.

FuneralOath wrote:

What I do not believe is valid is the office of the Prophet, kind of like a self appointed Prophet who likens his or herself to the Prophets of the Old and New Testaments. These had their function and that was to close the canon of scripture.

Hey!!!! They teach this at my AoG church, too! You heretics!!

I know that this is taught in many AoG churches. I consider this a minor disagreement and not something to fret too much about

therockismighty wrote:

Hey death, swap lives for a week?

Might see what I am saying a bit differently then, I would love it if you could come and hang with me and other Christian friends... your life would change, in a non cult like way, how rad.

Till then,...

therockismighty wrote:

I am ok with you saying what I said is crap or whatever, thats your opinion, thats cool.

Why I said that is because I felt you were attacking what Christianity originally was, and with the lack of denominations rather than the huge amount that we see. Now, yes there were denominations back then, but back then, it was mainly Christianity vs. Gnosticism in the Church. It isn't that easy today. I also felt it was an indirect attack on the Prophets of old. Wilkins was praising the old-school Christianity (the one where we both would be persecuted for even discussing this) and you turned around and "pulled a Metl" I felt. That gave me a bad taste in my mouth and I expressed, albeit harshy.

therockismighty wrote:

We all have experiences that shape our views, our lives, how we perceive others, what we take in, what we let color our world etc etc amen.

Yes.

therockismighty wrote:

I have experienced UTTER disgustingness from fellow "believers", had false teaching and just heaps of messed up stuff.

I think you know my story.

therockismighty wrote:

I was also a very messed up lady for quite awhile, I said and did things that hurt and affected people.....

As were we all.

therockismighty wrote:

But should this affect every facet of my life still? or should I pray, seek, study.... until I forgive, gain wisdom, gain more compassion and keep forging ahead.

As do I.

therockismighty wrote:

Now this is my view on how I see my walk with Christ, don't care if you agree... you don't have to... It is a continuously growing and changing thing.... I believe that the Living Word of God is enough and that He does prompt and impart things to certain people to speak to us.
They have the choice to credit and back up with scriptures or stuff it up... both happens...

I agree. But constant change gives no excuse for ungodly behavior.

therockismighty wrote:

I am free from depression, most of my carnal temptations are quite rare... I am growing in the understanding of who I am and what this life is about... so, to say what I am saying is crap or a lie, when it is real and true for me, is really not kind is it?

Well, I'm free from it from leaving it. I did keep my morality, so I don't garner any problems with people. I'm glad it's real and True for you! To me, it was fecal matter, because it isn't pure Truth. The fact that you said: "real and true for me" shows a biased opinion on the subject matter. I'm far more skeptical since I don't simply bow down and get "anal raped". I'm sorry if it isn't kind, but Christianity has never really been kind to me. So, I'm expressing my disdain. And, to an extent, trying to vent all my anti-Christian Chaos before I go back to researching. Getting a documentary for starters, then I get a week off to see where I lie. In the mean time though, I'm not allowing myself to get anal raped by a God again.

therockismighty wrote:

I am accountable for whatever I do or do not do, what I say and do not say... be chill.

As am I.

therockismighty wrote:

I love my life, I love God and His Son, I do not have any hate towards God... In fact I never have, I have been disappointed with Him not meeting my time constraints or demands to answer prayer, or not preventing people from doing horrible things-even though they had free will to decide their behaviour-... but my faith has never left my little head and heart....I want to do what I am meant to be doing for Him... and am open to any correction needed to be done.

Well, since it's all about relationship, I'm still okay because hate is still a relationship, just negative instead of positive.

therockismighty wrote:

You cannot talk to me in person, you cannot see how I go about my daily life... to weigh up " is she really living for God or just full of wishy washy pentecostal air"

No, I can't. But I'm mainly going off of Blabberjesus, (back then) firestream, and my real life experience with it all, and it's all the same. It's all hypocrisy, lies, and man-made. It's all scape-goat and it's all an excuse. Worst of all, as shown by a post in this thread as well, the saved are really obsessed with boasting, yet what did Ephesians say? Does show how seriously faith is taken by Christians.

therockismighty wrote:

Its easy to make a view based on this wall of text, but its easier said in person, which I cannot do.

Tis cool. Then again, I now see that if BB would come together in real life, it would only be a gigantic fight. That's why so many churches have to be built up since they need a corner to hide in.

Then again, I don't have a problem with you and wish we could speak in person.

therockismighty wrote:

I am not like a lot of people... I don't play games and I say it how it is... isn't that how we should be? Or am I mistaken.

It's how it should be. Don't expect it to happen though. Remember, due to being indoctrinated, nobody is going to change. They are going to be stuck with what they were anal raped with, and it's going to stick with them for the rest of their lives. They give a crap if it's True or not. It's all what they want it to be.

therockismighty wrote:

I love all of you on here, I truely do care about you guys, thats why I stick around online even though I kinda have a secret hatred of technology... hahahahaha.. ah hem, The end.

Thank you. I can't say the same however, but you're one I love. No, don't marry me like FireProphet was saying. I'm not getting back into that bs again.

FuneralOath wrote:

I know that this is taught in many AoG churches. I consider this a minor disagreement and not something to fret too much about

Yeah, it's very true what you said about minor differences. As far as I know, it's actually intentional in the AoG to give individual churches some freedom on minor issues. Hence, my church agrees with you on the office of Prophet.
Kind of weak to be intentionally lax like that. I can see where it could pay off, but I think situations like you witnessed in Panama are more likely. That is a bummer.

My mom forced me to go to a Pentecostal church a few weeks ago... I heard a lot of stuff about crazy miracles and people being slain in the spirit, and roughly 5 minutes of the bible.

LastFirstborn wrote:

My mom forced me to go to a Pentecostal church a few weeks ago... I heard a lot of stuff about crazy miracles and people being slain in the spirit, and roughly 5 minutes of the bible.

that's a sterotype, there are some churches like that in the pentecostal realm and it's not right, but you can find that in every denomination. Our church and most of the pentecotal churches I've been to teach much bible in the service

Matt. Stop saying that something is a stereotype or blast people when they call our theological errors and not explain how and why that's the case. Personal experiences do not count because such accounts are extremely unreliable and can be made up at the blink of an eye.

Quote :

there are some churches like that in the pentecostal realm and it's not right, but you can find that in every denomination

Prove it.

EDIT: For everyone's information. Matt's parents are Pentecostal pastors.

Well to be honest.... before I ever went to a "pentecostal" church, I went to a traditional type churches ( wesleyan methodist and church of christ)... so we did have this stereotype of Pentecostal.... "arm waving babbling fainter's" is something I heard often.

People used to mock one lady in a church I used to attend for praising the Lord aloud during hymns.." Oh my goodness what a crazy lady she is, oh my how embarassing she is"....

Her husband and herself now run my current church, they also sacrifice their lives to the Lords will and work solely for Him, our pastor also has a full time job, but still runs what he has to and gives of his time whenever there is a need.... these babbling arm wavers do some good too.

So yes, anywhere you go, we do have preconceived notions about other denominations and churches, things that seem out of the norm to us or illogical make us speak out against it.

In any denomination there are people who are doing the wrong thing or misguided in what they are doing. Pretty sure we all have been guilty of it, hands up.... both mine are up.

We keep pointing fingers and finding faults, I understand it... yes its detestable when the Word of God is misused and bloated into man made excess.


Now, what head way are we making by doing what we are doing???????

My main concern atm is for DOL, Joey... and a few others... not experiencing the love, mercy, grace, joy and freedom that I have in Christ.

So , what can we here on this board do?

DOL, Joey and whomever else... how can we meet you where you are at and show you what you crave?

I'd prefer to build decent relationships more than anything, I'm up for whatever you want to talk about.. pm me on here or facebook.

Quote :

Matt. Stop saying that something is a stereotype or blast people when they call our theological errors and not explain how and why that's the case. Personal experiences do not count because such accounts are extremely unreliable and can be made up at the blink of an eye.

OK...Lastfirstborn posted his personal experience...metLHed followed it up with his personal experience...and you slam him for talking about personal experiences.

well...if metLHed's personal experience doesn't count, then neither does Lastfirstborn's. Though I happen to think that their personal experiences do count.

My personal experiences with Pentecostal churches are more in line with metLHed's. The Bible was central to all the teaching. I now disagree with much of the teaching, but that isn't because the pentecostal churches that I used to attend didn't use the Bible, but rather because I have just come to different conclusions about what the Bible teaches about certain things.

And he is also right when he says that every denomination has churches that are off base to some extent...because people are flawed, and therefore churches are flawed...some more than others. I don't think anyone should judge an entire denomination or group of similar denominations based on one congregation...or worse, one visit to one congregation.

For example...when I attended an AoG church some years back, my parents came to visit, and attended church on Pentecost Sunday. The sermon that Sunday was about the Holy Spirit...because it was Pentecost Sunday. My mom's comment afterward was that they hardly said anything about Jesus. Based on her single experience, she felt that my church wasn't focused on Christ...that wasn't true, and I did explain to her that it was because it was Pentecost...but still, it was an inaccurate conclusion.

So...personal experiences are valid and useful, but also limited, and we shouldn't make really broad judgments based on a few experiences and we should be willing to listen to other's experiences.

So...lastfirstborn's experience could have led to an accurate conclusion, or maybe they were having an off day...but given that his conclusion about that particular congregation is accurate, it wouldn't be accurate to conclude that all or even most pentecostal churches are like that.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Matt. Stop saying that something is a stereotype or blast people when they call our theological errors and not explain how and why that's the case. Personal experiences do not count because such accounts are extremely unreliable and can be made up at the blink of an eye.

Quote :

there are some churches like that in the pentecostal realm and it's not right, but you can find that in every denomination

Prove it.

EDIT: For everyone's information. Matt's parents are Pentecostal pastors.

http://www.freedomchurchec.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Bryan, chill, nga plz

Exposing a kid's parents is plain wrong, bro.

therockismighty wrote:

People used to mock one lady in a church I used to attend for praising the Lord aloud during hymns.." Oh my goodness what a crazy lady she is, oh my how embarassing she is"....

Fuel to a fire at the ones who mock. At the same time, the way people praise does seem a little off putting for my personal views, but doesn't discredit them. Different strokes for different folks. Doesn't mean that I won't speak harshly on the posers for mocking the lady.

therockismighty wrote:

So yes, anywhere you go, we do have preconceived notions about other denominations and churches, things that seem out of the norm to us or illogical make us speak out against it.

Yes, very true as spoken earlier. I see it with this thread, which is off-putting.

therockismighty wrote:

In any denomination there are people who are doing the wrong thing or misguided in what they are doing. Pretty sure we all have been guilty of it, hands up.... both mine are up.

True, but in all honesty, I don't get why you type as if you are preaching a sermon. I'm speaking of the random amens and hands up, both of mine are up. Imo it seems more cultish then genuine, but once again, differing views which are opinionated, not factual.

therockismighty wrote:

We keep pointing fingers and finding faults, I understand it... yes its detestable when the Word of God is misused and bloated into man made excess.

Exactly. However, it was the very Word of God that isn't misused, but rather imperfect and hypocritical. Once again, Judas Iscariot, and Followers surpassing the God in Love is what I saw from Scriptures, so God is not omni in everything as He is presented. I've seen the Scriptures where God says He will mock, laugh, and scourge at His enemies whom he will throw, and the same God turns around and tells us to love our enemies, while He hates His. So, if one obey's Christ, then it seems He is over God, not under God, because the Follower is more Godly than God, so thus it really f's up God, at least the Christian God.

therockismighty wrote:

Now, what head way are we making by doing what we are doing???????

Revealing Truth through dark and destructive means for me. That is what makes me a disturbing double-edged sword. Even Evil reveals the Truth and it is this shunning away from Evil and darkness instead of learning from it where you lose knowledge/wisdom/ and Truth. Maybe what the Baphomet symbolizes to Christians isn't so "evil" afterall?

therockismighty wrote:

My main concern atm is for DOL, Joey... and a few others... not experiencing the love, mercy, grace, joy and freedom that I have in Christ.

Thank you. You don't have anything to do with it personally, but simply Christians/Christianity, AND God have to do with it.

therockismighty wrote:

So , what can we here on this board do?

If you want my input, let me put it in. (To begin, none of these are you Katie, so you are cool in my book)

#1. Actually have a heart and care about the other individual you are speaking to instead of being an ass. (Yes, this includes myself, but when I'm fed this by the Sons of God, what do you think my reactions going to be?)

#2. Drop the Fing pride! Stop taking pride in Calvinism or Pentacostal or Catholic etc. Pride always comes before the downfall and you see why Christianity is taking a nose dive, 1 person at a time.

#3. Grow a brain and actually discuss the matter at hand, and stop putting your damn emotions into it. Christians tend to be some of the most brain-dead people I've ever met and this is heavily due to the cult-like off-putting attitude to many people give off.

#4. Stop putting tradition ahead of Scriptures. With everything I'm seeing, the Scriptures might as well be toilet paper since that is how Scriptures are treated by Christians. If you don't have the answer, don't be afraid to say I don't have it or I don't know. Stop preaching as if you are God. Preach as if there is a possibility you could be wrong, because you very well could be!

#5. Debunk some of my claims that I've spoken that even has 1 of my great friends needing to ponder the thought. (Still haven't heard from him, but I know he will reply) Then again, what do you expect from a poster who's nearly non-existent here?

therockismighty wrote:

DOL, Joey and whomever else... how can we meet you where you are at and show you what you crave?

So far, internet! Also, let me have my vacation time as some serious soul-searching time. Till then, I have some claims, let's see them debunked. If you can't find any, I know we can search our posting history here.

therockismighty wrote:

I'd prefer to build decent relationships more than anything, I'm up for whatever you want to talk about.. pm me on here or facebook.

I don't have a facebook. We shall continue however.

As I have said before, I talk with passion.. not intentionally preaching a sermon... I talk like this as well... watch out hahaha

againsttheantichrist wrote:

Matt. Stop saying that something is a stereotype or blast people when they call our theological errors and not explain how and why that's the case. Personal experiences do not count because such accounts are extremely unreliable and can be made up at the blink of an eye.

Quote :

there are some churches like that in the pentecostal realm and it's not right, but you can find that in every denomination

Prove it.

EDIT: For everyone's information. Matt's parents are Pentecostal pastors.

I'm the one blasting people????!!!! Wow, what a thought. I don't feel a need to prove it because ByrneVampyre kinda did that for me. Now what does my parents have to do with anything? Plus I find it sort of odd that you kept that link for so long O.o. I wish you could hear my dad preach so you can get all those false assumptions about them out of your head

againsttheantichrist wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Yeah guys, Calvinism/Arminism has nothing to do with pentecostalism, so lets not debate it here

*is beginning to get the impression Matt is trying to dodge the points raised against AoG/Pentecostal theology*

not really, remeber last time we got in a debate? http://www.blabberboard.net/theology-f10/does-god-love-everyone-t1684.htm?highlight=does+god+love+everyone???? Yeah I don't want that again, so I debate as little as possible these days. Doesn't mean I won't share my comments every once in awhile.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

againsttheantichrist wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Yeah guys, Calvinism/Arminism has nothing to do with pentecostalism, so lets not debate it here

*is beginning to get the impression Matt is trying to dodge the points raised against AoG/Pentecostal theology*

not really, remeber last time we got in a debate? http://www.blabberboard.net/theology-f10/does-god-love-everyone-t1684.htm?highlight=does+god+love+everyone???? Yeah I don't want that again, so I debate as little as possible these days. Doesn't mean I won't share my comments every once in awhile.

Be careful Matt. Thanks to this post I'm quoting from you, some people are going to get the idea you're just here to shove things down our throat. You're already well on your way to doing that since you're making accusations and calling various points out as stereotypes and refusing to explain how and why. If you wish to not have that sort of view from others, then you need to start explaining things, and soon.

Also, if you're not here to debate, then you need to dismiss yourself from the Theology forum. This forum is a debate forum, and you can and will have your views questioned. If you don't want to have your views questioned or do not wish to respond to some questions raised against your theological standpoint, then please save yourself the energy and use it elsewhere on this forum where it will be of greater benefit to yourself and everyone else.

EDIT: Also, in case you haven't noticed, I haven't said anything regarding the theology itself. All of my posts were merely requests for you to straighten things out regarding everything you have said and refused to elaborate on. As such, you're really barking up the wrong tree here, since I have yet to debate or start a conversation with you regarding Pentecostal theology on this thread.

EDIT 2: Matt, you would be wise to take that link down immediately. I never debated in that thread. I posted two times, once was a general statement, the other was to CorpulentCripple, so that is a false accusation you are making against me as well as a personal attack intended to discredit me, which is a violation of board rules.

Wow, long debate. But I might as well put some input into this seeing that I've been attending a UPC church for 4 years now. I don't attend now, but I visit when I am able to take leave and go home every once in a while.

For the last couple of years I've been completely sold out for the Pentecostal doctrine, and I mean oneness of God, baptism in Jesus' name, slain in the spirit, dynamic worship all the way. Since I've been away from that church, I admit I've been open to a lot of things, and starting finding out that I really don't know that much about the doctrine at all, besides what I've been told by certain people in the church (it's amazing how stubborn on religion you get when you hang around the same people for 4 years).

These days I'm just trying to make sense of everything I'm learning, because everything contradicts everything and I can't seem to find any solid truth. Maybe I'll get sold out for that doctrine again, maybe I'll get into something else. I don't know.

It's especially hard to find time for prayer sessions these days with all of my military obligations, and there are so many distractions.

Anyway, my Pentecostal experience has been mostly positive, but like I said I usually end up with more questions than answers regarding the doctrine.

And for the record, I despise the prosperity gospel and I am not fond of people like Benny Hinn.

againsttheantichrist wrote:

[

EDIT 2: Matt, you would be wise to take that link down immediately. I never debated in that thread. I posted two times, once was a general statement, the other was to CorpulentCripple, so that is a false accusation you are making against me as well as a personal attack intended to discredit me, which is a violation of board rules.

I didn't mean for it to be a attack on you, I wasn't accusing you, when I said we, I was refering to the whole board in general, sorry for the misunderstnading

I grew up in a pentecostla church.. While they had some bizarre habits.. they for the most part were good people.. and I was taught well... regarding scripture.


SO , I would say.. there are some good pentecostals and some bad ones.. just like in everything else.. meh.


The speaknig in tongue things really pisses me off though.. they woudl always do that.. flapping in some uinknown language.

Speaking in TOnguies in scripture only referred to the gift of speaking in a foreign language that you never knew.. in order to share the gospel. That issue is blak and white, scriptural. There is no edification or glory in speaking gibberish in the midst of a congregation.

Wilkins wrote:

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

Wilkins wrote:

I actually felt kinda dead and I saw a lot of "spiritual religiousity" while attending Pentecostal churches. If you are not speaking in tounges, you do not have the "holy spirit", which of course is a load of horse turd on bread, because in Galatians 3:2, it clearly states that you've received the Holy Spirit (which is the 3rd and equally important member of the Trinity, not a feeling nor existentianal experience) through Faith. Nowhere does it claim that speaking in tounges is a sign you have it. Just one of the bullcrap things I have witnessed and actually participated in back in my Pentecostal days.

Another thing: Quite contrary to believe around here, the "prosperity" Gospel did start in Pentecostal churches Oh, which is another reason why I don't attend Pentecostal churches anymore. People like Osteen, Meyers, Hinn, Jakes etc are absolutely EVERYWHERE! I can't bear to see/hear/witness their absolute tripe.

I'm sorry but this is a complete misunderstanding of pentecostal doctrine

I have a quote

"if you need to sift through an olympic size swimming pool of faeces to just find one small nugget of gold, then you're insane. find another swimming pool, perferably the one that's made of gold".

or

"if you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, take the baby out of your old bath and put it in a new one".

Both are in relation to the amount of sifting of crap one needs to do to get something decent out of a modern pentecostal church. Oh, I do find it highly ironic that you are discrediting my 15 years of experience, calling me a liar, and the moment somebody does it against you, you jump on the backfoot, and pull the black flag and declare somebody is calling you a liar.

It is what I've experienced, it is what many people like me have experienced. It is why many people I used to see at pentecostal churches have left. It's just a Fecal Holocaust, mate. Not true religion, not true spirituality.

Even with your mindset of "experience is King", you can throw out my bad experiences mate. It is real, it is what happened to me mate. Many like myself.

God bless old school Christianity and true religion

Fair enpugh Wilkins and Bryan, I here by now am fuill blown in this debate as you wish. Ok Wilkins, "If you are not speaking in tounges, you do not have the "holy spirit", which of course is a load of horse turd on bread, because in Galatians 3:2, it clearly states that you've received the Holy Spirit". We do not beleive that. You do receive the hoyl spirit when you are saved, we completely agree. You are mistaking that with "baptismal in the holy spirit" (Matthew 3:11) (Luke 3:16), (Acts 1:5).

now for defense of the gifts: Acts 2:14-21, Acts 2:1-9 <---for tongues. If you want I can go into detail on why tongues are not an actual language. Romans 12:3-8.

I never once called you a liar, don't know where that came from.

FuneralOath wrote:

A large area in my home country Panama has been controlled by the Assemblies of God, and I have witnessed the fact that throughout latin America, this is somewhat typical. I find the denomination as a whole (some churches more than others) as somewhat doctrinally lacking at best among the pastors and leaders, and somewhat heretical at worst, depending on how much a church or cluster of churches has been infiltrated by the ungodly and repulsive Word of Faith movement, which has nearly devastated the core of AOG, due to the lack of in depth theological training that many of its leaders possess (or do not possess.) This can be verified by the scant amount of scholars, theologians, and published authors who offer meaningful contributions to Christianity, of this particular denominations.

Are they doctrinally lacking, or do you simply jsut disagree with them?

Quote :

I personally am not fond of many pentecostal churches for the aforementioned reasons, and would not likely recommend them unless I knew for a fact that the church leaders were at least somewhat solid doctrinally. How can you lead a flock if you are doctrinally ignorant? You will make unspeakable mistakes! The fact that most of the people that I find reading aberrant heretical literature are at least a little pentecostal or a little charismatic alarms me, but I have seen very good fruit arise from many members of AOG churches, so please do not accuse me of going on a witch hunt.

same response

Quote :

Likewise, it is frequent that AOG leaders are generally not especially gifted at discerning heresy and gross error, since the very Theological backbone of AOG is wrought with a sense of championing experience over objective doctrinal stability (even though their statement of belief may be Orthodox and objective in nature), thus causing instability when false teaching and questionable methodology infiltrates itself into AOG / pentecostal / charismatic churches.

All in all, many of my friends are AOG and I love them to death

I see you aren't really debating much, jsut stating you have disagreements. That's completely fine by me...but then why do I get bashed for not backing up claims when I don't feel like it?

FuneralOath wrote:

Lastly, I believe that being slain, drunk, tranced, etc. etc. etc. is a work of the flesh and sometimes demonic.

First off, being drunk?? I never even heard of that doctrine. but w/e. I want you to do a science project. Research what would happen if you stuck a metal pipe up an electrical outlet, all sorts of reactions wpould occur. Well same is true with the holy spirit, if God decides to really touch a service, prayer time, etc., there will be all sorts of reactions.

therockismighty wrote:

Ah...

Yep...

Hmmm

What to say.

At the moment, I go to a fortnightly study... we basically have worship time... to break thru all the focus on self and stuff in life that distracts us... just to unite as a church and give praise to God... speak out and prophecy over the area we live in, pray for our region- which is a very dark and depressed area.... things are stirring and happening... So for you to say that this doesn't happen anymore, baffles me.

No I do not go to an AOG, I am not saying what type.

If this is not of God, I am more than happy for any Godly correction, maybe its all mere coincidence and all the wise well learned people, pastors who are around me and that I fellowship with are not so bright? nah, don't think so.

You do not know what God is going to do- It is His plans and will to put in place, not what we "think might happen", He has not shut off anything. All things are possible, who cares what time we are living in, God hasn't stopped existing, neither has His Word and His promises.

Sorry Phil, I don't agree mate, no offence to you.

I am experiencing a different thing in my country, people of faith are rising up and getting on the front foot for God, changes are happening, people are being prepared..although I do agree many trials are happening, many churches are sick, many people are turning away... but many people are hungry and thirsty... for knowledge of who they are, we are getting new believers of all ages being saved.... and wanting answers.


I do believe people misuse and distort things such as praying in tongues and other things... and then it becomes more of a "natural" power of man or placebo effect... not really of God at all.


I have witnessed in the last 2 weeks a woman get healed of a 10 year allergy to many food products, she was a level 5? and now has eaten some things with MSG and other stuff... no anaphlatic(sp.) anything... so yes I am not one to go on about such things and be idiotic... she had faith and we all had faith, put that together, God answers in His way.


Speaking in tongues- I do not do this myself, I believe it is a form of prayer and communication with Christ... if it is done up front it must be able to be interpreted or do not do it at all, I also do not think you have to speak in tongues to pray effectively- my church also believes this.
Being slain in the spirit, yes sometimes its not legit...... i do not see this as " you must fall over" when someone prays for you.. .I never have but I have been stirred in the spirit.... much prefer that.

If you are thinking in the natural, of course most things seem demonic and crazy, but hey, God works beyond our limited mind... beyond the natural man whose logic sometimes creates more confusion than necessary.

This post is full of win

DeathOverLife wrote:

Since we are talking about Metl, I agree with you. I still remember speaking with him about the after-life and because it wasn't what he was pre-indoctrinated with, he simply scoffed at it, then went back to what he originally believed instead of really researching it. Oh well. Typical Christian attitude. [/quote} Only part of this post I feel like I need to address simply to defend myself. Really? Is that what you think. I remember reasearching your view immensely when you offered me that view, I looked at all the links you provided and such, asked other people's opinions, including a pastor. Becasue I still don't agree with you means I didn't look into it? Sorry no hard feelings, but I think you may have misunderstodd me a bit.

Quote:
Matt. Stop saying that something is a stereotype or blast people when they call our theological errors and not explain how and why that's the case. Personal experiences do not count because such accounts are extremely unreliable and can be made up at the blink of an eye.



OK...Lastfirstborn posted his personal experience...metLHed followed it up with his personal experience...and you slam him for talking about personal experiences.

well...if metLHed's personal experience doesn't count, then neither does Lastfirstborn's. Though I happen to think that their personal experiences do count.

My personal experiences with Pentecostal churches are more in line with metLHed's. The Bible was central to all the teaching. I now disagree with much of the teaching, but that isn't because the pentecostal churches that I used to attend didn't use the Bible, but rather because I have just come to different conclusions about what the Bible teaches about certain things.

And he is also right when he says that every denomination has churches that are off base to some extent...because people are flawed, and therefore churches are flawed...some more than others. I don't think anyone should judge an entire denomination or group of similar denominations based on one congregation...or worse, one visit to one congregation.

For example...when I attended an AoG church some years back, my parents came to visit, and attended church on Pentecost Sunday. The sermon that Sunday was about the Holy Spirit...because it was Pentecost Sunday. My mom's comment afterward was that they hardly said anything about Jesus. Based on her single experience, she felt that my church wasn't focused on Christ...that wasn't true, and I did explain to her that it was because it was Pentecost...but still, it was an inaccurate conclusion.

So...personal experiences are valid and useful, but also limited, and we shouldn't make really broad judgments based on a few experiences and we should be willing to listen to other's experiences.

So...lastfirstborn's experience could have led to an accurate conclusion, or maybe they were having an off day...but given that his conclusion about that particular congregation is accurate, it wouldn't be accurate to conclude that all or even most pentecostal churches are like that.

Wow thanks dude, pretty much hit every point there, I don't really have to go any further with it.

Quote :

Wow, long debate. But I might as well put some input into this seeing that I've been attending a UPC church for 4 years now. I don't attend now, but I visit when I am able to take leave and go home every once in a while.

For the last couple of years I've been completely sold out for the Pentecostal doctrine, and I mean oneness of God, baptism in Jesus' name, slain in the spirit, dynamic worship all the way. Since I've been away from that church, I admit I've been open to a lot of things, and starting finding out that I really don't know that much about the doctrine at all, besides what I've been told by certain people in the church (it's amazing how stubborn on religion you get when you hang around the same people for 4 years).

These days I'm just trying to make sense of everything I'm learning, because everything contradicts everything and I can't seem to find any solid truth. Maybe I'll get sold out for that doctrine again, maybe I'll get into something else. I don't know.

It's especially hard to find time for prayer sessions these days with all of my military obligations, and there are so many distractions.

Anyway, my Pentecostal experience has been mostly positive, but like I said I usually end up with more questions than answers regarding the doctrine.

And for the record, I despise the prosperity gospel and I am not fond of people like Benny Hinn.

Good to know i'm not alone on this And yes, the prosperity gosple is fail.

[quote='Kamerad Ash"] It's not about that. Your prayer language is a language between you and God. Lot of people will agree there but then will say you need an interpretor. Yes, an interpretor is nice so everyone can hear what is being said, but it is not necessary, it is simply you connecting with God, and not being ashamed of doing it. Reminds me of the time David danced in the streets so undignified that his wife was embarrased, and it pleased God. To bash speaking in tnogues for not being appropriate is a bit of a contradiction and saying you should hold back from allowing god to move through you.





Now I hope people are satisfied with me entering the conversation to the extent desired.


btw, I've been in the pentecostal church my whole life, so I really have just as ,much experience in it as Wilkins

HellxBovine wrote:

Wow, long debate. But I might as well put some input into this seeing that I've been attending a UPC church for 4 years now. I don't attend now, but I visit when I am able to take leave and go home every once in a while.

I used to be UPC...about 20 years ago. I totally get everything you are saying.

therockismighty wrote:

Ah...

Yep...

Hmmm

What to say.

At the moment, I go to a fortnightly study... we basically have worship time... to break thru all the focus on self and stuff in life that distracts us... just to unite as a church and give praise to God... speak out and prophecy over the area we live in, pray for our region- which is a very dark and depressed area.... things are stirring and happening... So for you to say that this doesn't happen anymore, baffles me.

No I do not go to an AOG, I am not saying what type.

If this is not of God, I am more than happy for any Godly correction, maybe its all mere coincidence and all the wise well learned people, pastors who are around me and that I fellowship with are not so bright? nah, don't think so.

You do not know what God is going to do- It is His plans and will to put in place, not what we "think might happen", He has not shut off anything. All things are possible, who cares what time we are living in, God hasn't stopped existing, neither has His Word and His promises.

Sorry Phil, I don't agree mate, no offence to you.

I am experiencing a different thing in my country, people of faith are rising up and getting on the front foot for God, changes are happening, people are being prepared..although I do agree many trials are happening, many churches are sick, many people are turning away... but many people are hungry and thirsty... for knowledge of who they are, we are getting new believers of all ages being saved.... and wanting answers.


I do believe people misuse and distort things such as praying in tongues and other things... and then it becomes more of a "natural" power of man or placebo effect... not really of God at all.


I have witnessed in the last 2 weeks a woman get healed of a 10 year allergy to many food products, she was a level 5? and now has eaten some things with MSG and other stuff... no anaphlatic(sp.) anything... so yes I am not one to go on about such things and be idiotic... she had faith and we all had faith, put that together, God answers in His way.


Speaking in tongues- I do not do this myself, I believe it is a form of prayer and communication with Christ... if it is done up front it must be able to be interpreted or do not do it at all, I also do not think you have to speak in tongues to pray effectively- my church also believes this.
Being slain in the spirit, yes sometimes its not legit...... i do not see this as " you must fall over" when someone prays for you.. .I never have but I have been stirred in the spirit.... much prefer that.

If you are thinking in the natural, of course most things seem demonic and crazy, but hey, God works beyond our limited mind... beyond the natural man whose logic sometimes creates more confusion than necessary.

Actually, this sums up my opinions and beliefs to a T. I'm wary, but I do believe these same exact things. I do believe that all who are really saved have the Holy Spirit in them; just that there are times when a believer can or happens to "feel" God's presence and Spirit "closer", more in tune. I don't know how to explain this in simple human terms, but like when you really worship and praise God so much and sincerely, especially with others, or even by yourself, and you feel so close to God. Not saying He wasn't there or something, but you know what I mean? Like this:

Acts 2:
"13 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose,(P) since it is only the third hour of the day.[b]"

See? Sometimes it can seem that way to others. But it really is God, and the reaction/state that you are in when God's presence/Spirit is "felt" much stronger, closer. This does happen, and the Scriptures show that. I understand that the day of Pentecost happened because Jesus had promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them; and that since then, when someone becomes saved, they have the Holy Spirit. But clearly one can get into states of veneration, deep communion with God (or whatever you want to all it) more times than at others.

You should see me sometimes when I'm by myself spending time with God (praying, singing praises, after reading Scriptures), or at worship time at church. Sometimes we REALLY get "into" it. Of course, I don't go around all day every day like this; people WOULD think I were drunk or something! I've noticed that this happens when I devote more time in really seeking the Lord and saturate in Him. My point is, that there are times when we get (or can get) in this sort of state. Thus, it can be legit. The Bible proves so, and so do legit experiences prove that only to ourselves who experience it.

Of course, this "state" can be faked; it can happen by placebo of the mind, mass hysteria, etc. Maybe even by demonic activity, I'm sure. But, my point again, is to say that being in this state of being more in tune with God's presence and Spirit DOES happen legitimately: Acts 2 pretty much shows that. I personally just don't like the "slain in the spirit" term, as I don't think it's accurate of an expression; and because I have personally seen many people who were frauds using that term, so I want to distance myself from calling it that.

HellxBovine wrote:

These days I'm just trying to make sense of everything I'm learning, because everything contradicts everything and I can't seem to find any solid truth. Maybe I'll get sold out for that doctrine again, maybe I'll get into something else. I don't know.

Anyway, my Pentecostal experience has been mostly positive, but like I said I usually end up with more questions than answers regarding the doctrine.

And for the record, I despise the prosperity gospel and I am not fond of people like Benny Hinn.

Welcome to my world. Seems you are seeing just why I at the moment left Christianity.

MetLHed4GZus wrote:

DeathOverLife wrote:

Since we are talking about Metl, I agree with you. I still remember speaking with him about the after-life and because it wasn't what he was pre-indoctrinated with, he simply scoffed at it, then went back to what he originally believed instead of really researching it. Oh well. Typical Christian attitude.

Only part of this post I feel like I need to address simply to defend myself. Really? Is that what you think. I remember reasearching your view immensely when you offered me that view, I looked at all the links you provided and such, asked other people's opinions, including a pastor. Becasue I still don't agree with you means I didn't look into it? Sorry no hard feelings, but I think you may have misunderstodd me a bit.

Apologies for sounding like a jerk. Thing is, where was this debunked evidence when we did discuss it? The only thing I garnered from that was the usual Christian: "Does it really matter?" answer.

I do agree ATAC as well was being a jerk, but he is correct that you constantly bring nothing to the table to challenge the views. You just mark it off, then off your' marry way, saying what you always say. If you researched what view I brought forth, instead of just disagreeing, prove it, or disprove it!

It's the typical Christian dodging what they can't refute then condemn that I constantly see and that is what I constantly am turned off by. Last I recall, this isn't the Crusades or anything of the sort. You can speak your mind without feeling that you are about to die for speaking it. We are (supposed to be) grown men and women who are (supposed to be) mature about discussions as this. Ducking and dodging is not mature! But it is a practice that Christians love to practice, and this is why many can't take such a religion seriously, even I don't see it as this serious thing anymore, because it is a contradiction. The Scriptures are toilet paper to the believers and it shows. Like I say, you disagree? Prove it. And if we must, go to the Heaven and Hell thread to discuss the said viewpoints I'm asking for on the afterlife.

Hmmm,

Yes, I agree.... many people including Christians throw the " I'm offended" grenade at people and condemn, but cannot back up why and instead of perhaps being emotionally reactive... look at practicising what we believe in all circumstances, can show faith, rather than shove it down peoples throats.


I can say many things I believe DOL, but they mean nothing to you if you are not truly open to hearing it, or ready to poke some holes in anything I propose to you.

Your salvation is yours to figure out, all I can do is encourage and say what I can... pray and love you. Thats it. God and you are to work out the rest.

Not saying you do not try, but all our past hurts, past experiences, past things said over us and to us can make us far less receptive to anything getting into the little world we have created for ourselves.

I pray that you do find what you are looking for and that we all step down from proving our ways are better... and just pray that you DOL are renewed in spirit and in truth.