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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:14 pm

metalgrinch wrote:
nobody knows what the crap they're talking about in these posts. Nobody knows what hell is, or what it looks like or who goes there. This is the ugly truth of Christianity - nobody knows anything.


did I say I know what it is like, or that others don't know that and you are the only one privy to that fact. The only one here who is even claiming that is Jon, and he is a satanist gone off his rocker.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:24 pm

That's not true. There are many who know what hell is like. YOu can very much experience hell while in your body, because this world is part of hell, that kingdom of death... and it's king remains Satan.

IF you asked a concentration camp victim of nazi germany if they knew what hell was like.. they woudl tell you yes.. and they would be right.

Hell is a kingdom.. a domain... and many different experiences are experienced within it. Even pleasures are experienced in hell, as well... but in the end.. eventually.. everyone experiences hell... and usually long before they are living in the spirit side of it.. which is nothing more than this world.. in it's incorporeal place.

Here and there ( THe incorpoeal side if this world, Hell).. we are simply awaiting the judgment.

As Scripture teaches " and hell and death shall be cast into the lake of fire".


Hell isnot some distant unknown place of suffering... it is a known present and near place of suffering.. which encompasses the corporeal and incorporeal lives of we humans in this world.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:27 pm

There is no scriptual evidence for this world being hell. For those who live according to God's word it could be beginning of Heaven...but really all of that is so subjective that it can't even really be debated because well...we just can't know.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:05 pm

yepimonfire wrote:
Hell is not a place of fire and burning.

There are vortexes of very destructive, negative energy. Hatred, anger, fear, murder, death, and every other destructive thing These are like blackholes/wormholes. They accumulate negative energy like a vaccuum. most of this energy is of a very low vibration, people who are already on a lower level spiritually can get pulled into these easily Many of these people who see this type of thing have died while fighting or while angry ever notice a pattern?

Most of hell is illuminated with a bright blue light, some of it is darkish and other places are bright as sunshine

None of this is in my bible.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:09 pm

Quote :
There is no scriptual evidence for this world being hell. For those who
live according to God's word it could be beginning of Heaven...but
really all of that is so subjective that it can't even really be
debated because well...we just can't know.

That depends on whether you consider the Bible evidence or not?

(Hell as we know is referred to as Sheol by the ancient Hebrews.)

Psalm 18:5-7 "The breakers of death surged round about me; the menacing floods terrified me. The cords of Sheol tightened; the snares of death lay in wait for me. In my distress I called out: LORD! I cried out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry to him reached his ears.

Psalm 86:13: "Your love for me is great; you have rescued me from the depths of Sheol."

Jonah 2:2: "...Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice."

... Jonah and KinG David were niether "dead" when they referred to being rescued out of Hell in these passages.



"Hell" is always translated from the Hebrew word Sheol (which is used 65 times in the Old Testament) and means simply "the world of the dead". There is no hint of a place of fire (Jonah 2:1-2). Sheol is translated as "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times. "Sheol" is translated as "grave" in Psa.89:48, Job 17:13, where both Job (a godly man) and the wicked go to Sheol (hell). Sheol is described in terms of overwhelming floods, water, or waves (Jonah 2:2-6). Sometimes, Sheol is pictured as a hunter setting snares for its victim, binding them with cords, snatching them from the land of the living (2 Sam. 22:6; Job 24:19; Ps. 116:3). Sheol is a prison with bars, a place of no return (Job 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; 21:13; Ps.49:14; Isa.38:10). People could go to Sheol alive (Num.16:30,33; Ps.55:15; Prov.1:12).

It does not teach a place of the conscious souls. The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hades as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, used the word, they meant the same as is meant in the Old Testament. Thus, the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Literally, Hades means "death" or the "grave"; and figuratively, it means "destruction".


Last edited by Kamerad Ash on Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:19 pm

Where were you yesterday when I was debating Dale Thompson (and got persecuted, and bashed, and hated on, and thrown off his friends list, and made a mockery (to some extent)) Ash?
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:25 pm

Jeez, sounds like Dale Thompson was acting particularly hellish.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:26 pm

Err where in that did you get that this earth was hell out of that? And in this convo Ash using the bible is fine as far as evidence goes because the particular question at hand is of a biblical nature.

And Bryan, what was the debate about?
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metalgrinch

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:24 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
That's not true. There are many who know what hell is like. YOu can very much experience hell while in your body, because this world is part of hell, that kingdom of death... and it's king remains Satan.

IF you asked a concentration camp victim of nazi germany if they knew what hell was like.. they woudl tell you yes.. and they would be right.

Hell is a kingdom.. a domain... and many different experiences are experienced within it. Even pleasures are experienced in hell, as well... but in the end.. eventually.. everyone experiences hell... and usually long before they are living in the spirit side of it.. which is nothing more than this world.. in it's incorporeal place.

Here and there ( THe incorpoeal side if this world, Hell).. we are simply awaiting the judgment.

As Scripture teaches " and hell and death shall be cast into the lake of fire".


Hell isnot some distant unknown place of suffering... it is a known present and near place of suffering.. which encompasses the corporeal and incorporeal lives of we humans in this world.

If this is true, than what the hell is Jesus for? If even Christians and the most devout followers of Christ experience suffering, pain, despair, loss and all that emcompasses this supposed "Earth Present Hell" as you say, what does Christ mean when he says we'll have "life" by following him and believing in him? When does this life start? It sure as hell doesn't start now, and you can tell that to the devout follower of Christ who works like a dog all his life, is broke, ignored, physically ugly, unappealing, friendless and dies from cancer at the age of 50 without so much as a vacation or time of retirement or relaxation. Where is his "life"? I suppose he dies because of the sin of the world or his sin? If we suffer because of our separation from God, it sounds more like just an excuse to explain away the crap that God allows, because if Jesus isn't enough to repair this separation, than what is? Death?
Do you see my point, none of this makes sense because there's plenty of Scripture that can argue against this. Then again, there's Scripture that can pretty much argue against anything considering the Bible seems to be a book of continuous contradictions.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:21 pm

Quote :
f this is true, than what the hell is Jesus for?
If even Christians and the most devout followers of Christ experience
suffering, pain, despair, loss and all that emcompasses this supposed
"Earth Present Hell" as you say, what does Christ mean when he says
we'll have "life" by following him and believing in him?

Sheol is not synonymous with damnation. Both the righteous and unrighteous experience different aspects of hell. Jesus saves us from eternal damnation, which not hell.. but is what is describedin scripture as the lake of fire or being cast into outer darkness.

And in fact, in the new testament we find that Christ after his physical death... went into the kingdom of the dead to set the captives free on that side of hell as well.

"He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was
raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached
to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of
Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For
this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that,
although they have already been judged in the flesh like men,
they might have life in the Spirit like God." (1 Peter 3:18-20;
4:6)

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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:01 pm

so are you suggesting that hell is not eternal punishment?
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:15 pm

olias wrote:
so are you suggesting that hell is not eternal punishment?


Hell is not eternal at all. The scripture never refers to hell as eternal. It refers to the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness as eternal punishment.


Pay close attention to this verse... it teaches us alot-

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire" Rev 20-14

1. We see here that death and Hades, which the greek term for our Norse word Hell, are not even referred to as the second death. What does that tell us. Simple.. that death and Hades are the first death.

2. We also see that Death and Hades ( hell, sheol, the pit, etc).. are not eternal places. Because those who are bound in them are awaiting the judgement... at which point those who are damned will be thrown in to the lake of fire... and elsewhere mentioned.. there is refernce to a damnation of Outer Darkness.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:22 pm

Do you believe in any sort of eternal retribution at ALL?
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:27 pm

olias wrote:
Do you believe in any sort of eternal retribution at ALL?


No, I just talked about the Lake of Fire as being eternal damnation.... and I don't belikve in any eternal retribution at all.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:32 pm

i missed that part. My bad.

I am going to do some reading and come back to this, but what your saying doesn't sound quite right to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:26 pm

Some would die to see Heaven & Hell jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:10 am

Back on the main topic:

Guess what?

I've seen this guy in person and heard him talk about this at my old church.... pretty awesome liar if its false.

He went from a non believer to a believer after this happening to him, so I see something good even if you may think its all bull.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:48 am

If the man was there to tell the story, he has never, by medical definition been "dead", merely very close to it...which is not the same thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:11 am

And we know all these facts how? We didn't experience what this man experienced.. he believes he "died" so to speak so how can we assume or put out limited logic ahead of what God may have done or may not of done??? A doctor wasn't out in the ocean with him, so they never can tell us.

Yes, technically one would assume from a medical viewpoint that he indeed may not have "died" but if you have faith in God you know he works beyond medical definitions and human logic.

All we know is that this guy is telling his story as it led him to Christ and impacted his life. If its fake, he will get caught out and be very accountable to God for peddling falsehood.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:13 am

Actually we do know these facts pretty concretely. The nature of death isn't so simple as simply losing a pulse. The human body slips into death. it isnt an instant. but once you are dead...you are dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:06 am

Kamerad Ash wrote:
Quote :
There is no scriptual evidence for this world being hell. For those who
live according to God's word it could be beginning of Heaven...but
really all of that is so subjective that it can't even really be
debated because well...we just can't know.

That depends on whether you consider the Bible evidence or not?

(Hell as we know is referred to as Sheol by the ancient Hebrews.)

Psalm 18:5-7 "The breakers of death surged round about me; the menacing floods terrified me. The cords of Sheol tightened; the snares of death lay in wait for me. In my distress I called out: LORD! I cried out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry to him reached his ears.

Psalm 86:13: "Your love for me is great; you have rescued me from the depths of Sheol."

Jonah 2:2: "...Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice."

... Jonah and KinG David were niether "dead" when they referred to being rescued out of Hell in these passages.



"Hell" is always translated from the Hebrew word Sheol (which is used 65 times in the Old Testament) and means simply "the world of the dead". There is no hint of a place of fire (Jonah 2:1-2). Sheol is translated as "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times. "Sheol" is translated as "grave" in Psa.89:48, Job 17:13, where both Job (a godly man) and the wicked go to Sheol (hell). Sheol is described in terms of overwhelming floods, water, or waves (Jonah 2:2-6). Sometimes, Sheol is pictured as a hunter setting snares for its victim, binding them with cords, snatching them from the land of the living (2 Sam. 22:6; Job 24:19; Ps. 116:3). Sheol is a prison with bars, a place of no return (Job 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; 21:13; Ps.49:14; Isa.38:10). People could go to Sheol alive (Num.16:30,33; Ps.55:15; Prov.1:12).

It does not teach a place of the conscious souls. The Greek Septuagint, which our Lord used when he read or quoted from the Old Testament, gives Hades as the exact equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, and when the Savior, or his apostles, used the word, they meant the same as is meant in the Old Testament. Thus, the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament. Literally, Hades means "death" or the "grave"; and figuratively, it means "destruction".

Yes Sheol and Hell have the same meaning, they are not the earth, but the GRAVE.

When it is mentioned in Rev. 20 it is saying Death and the Grave are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I am not sure if David was "rescued from the Dead" I think it more means he was rescued from dying.

Acts states: Act 2:29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Jonah is talking about being in the belly of the fish. It is seen as the grave. It may be possible that Jonah died in the fish and he was raised from it.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:01 am

This is a bit deceiving he does not see either heaven or hell.

All he is seeing is a dark light or a bright light and a voice.

I will not discount that the voice was God, it is very possible.

If that is the case, than God revealed himself to him, in the state of inbetween.

I would not say he was dead, but in a form of unconsciousness, but was aware of what was going on around him, the lights could be his own brain or the lights from outside. Or God creating the light.

There is no evidence in the bible that when men die they go directly to heaven. Everything points them to being in the grave. The only ones who are in heaven were those who have been resurrected under the Beast and False Prophet.

The bible makes it clear that Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, are the only ones who are in heaven,

There is no biblical eviendce that anyone else is in heaven, other than these two groups of people.
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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:13 am

lord voldemort wrote:
This is a bit deceiving he does not see either heaven or hell.

All he is seeing is a dark light or a bright light and a voice.

I will not discount that the voice was God, it is very possible.

If that is the case, than God revealed himself to him, in the state of inbetween.

I would not say he was dead, but in a form of unconsciousness, but was aware of what was going on around him, the lights could be his own brain or the lights from outside. Or God creating the light.

There is no evidence in the bible that when men die they go directly to heaven. Everything points them to being in the grave. The only ones who are in heaven were those who have been resurrected under the Beast and False Prophet.

The bible makes it clear that Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, are the only ones who are in heaven,

There is no biblical eviendce that anyone else is in heaven, other than these two groups of people.


I have read about near death experiences and apparently many people say that they see themselves elevate from their body through something that sounds to me like a wormhole with light inside of it. From what I understand these people were christians and they were being taken up into the sky. To me this sounded like people going to heaven.....
I have also read about people that have had dreams or trances where they are going through a tour of both heaven and hell, and in heaven they see families and countless people of those who are saved, praising God and doing various tasks or something all over the place.
Then again, it could have been a hoax too, I don't know.
One of these people who had these tours also talked about the rapture that is supposed to take place before the tribulation, which I have come to believe is false anyway.
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olias

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:19 pm

A lot of people have such experiences though that fit their particular religious beliefs. I would guess that the lack of oxygen going to your brain would have something to do with these visions, similar to "Choking games" where people choke themselves to achieve a sense of euphoria.

Here is a hint that what they are experiencing isnt what think it is: if they truly entered heaven, they would not be able to describe it with our limited human vocabulary.
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Kamerad Ash

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PostSubject: Re: Man dies and see's heaven and hell   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:36 pm

olias wrote:
If the man was there to tell the story, he has never, by medical definition been "dead", merely very close to it...which is not the same thing.


So, your saying when Jesus raised Lazarus form the "dead", as scripture teaches, he wasn't dead?

OF course people can be brought back to life by God. He is God.
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