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 Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?

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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:03 pm

Matt wrote:
Who says a monogamous homosexual couple is unloving?

Jesus, if I'm understanding this rightly:


Matthew 22:36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



I assume because the law forbids homosexuality (and monogamy is not specified with regards to it), that it therefore must be unloving because Jesus just summed up the law as loving God and neighbour as yourself. It would be filed under adultery or sexual immorality. Paul also says some things about it near the start of the epistle to the Romans.

Besides, it's just common sense to me. If you love someone, you wouldn't do something God hates with them or that can hurt both your and their relationship with God, let alone physical damage.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:21 am

lulz
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:25 am

People aren't based on God/Christianity when decide to love someone.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:42 pm

Homosexuals are (most of the time) not really believers, so the God-part isn't in effect.
I'm sure lots of gay people truly love their partners
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:15 am

I'd be willing to bet that gay couples are more genuine than straight couples half the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:20 am

I'd be willing to bet you'd be wrong... both can be genuine or ingenuine equally, especially if their "Love" is all based on Eros.

Neither usurps.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:18 pm

Matt wrote:
Homosexuals are (most of the time) not really believers, so the God-part isn't in effect.
I'm sure lots of gay people truly love their partners

How can you truly love someone when you're sinning both with - and ultimately against - them and against God, if both sin and true love are defined on Jesus' terms in the first place? It's not loving to defile a person. It's not loving to sin with them. Sin is by definition unloving towards God and your neighbour.

Same idea applies to 'swinging': God says no, because God is good and loving but 'swinging' or 'homosexuality' are not. They are perverted.

Regardless, if the God-part isn't in effect then a person has the same profound problem as the Christ killing Pharisees did: an evil heart. We all start life with one; some are born-again.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:05 am

Evil = Malicious actions that are harmful to others.

Homosexuals loving each other ≠ evil.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:33 am

LastFirstborn wrote:
Vaguely relevant side note, it kind of pisses me off that a lot of American Christians are so adamantly homophobic (something Jesus never spoke of), yet openly embrace divorce (something Jesus spoke against adamantly).

Leviticus 18:22

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

both say you're wrong about that first part.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:01 am

LastFirstborn wrote:
Vaguely relevant side note, it kind of pisses me off that a lot of American Christians are so adamantly homophobic (something Jesus never spoke of), yet openly embrace divorce (something Jesus spoke against adamantly).
Well Im not, u know that. Its just my gawd...if they kiss in front of me...Its just gross is all Im sayin. As long as they dont kiss in front of me etc. w/ their partner, im not agreeing its alright, but I wont bash them or anything. Same rules for straight people. I dont want to see how far you can snake your tongue down your girlfriends throat.
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Exquisite Corpse

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:37 am

Honestly, I think that straight swingers are more "perverse" than monogamous homosexuals. I believe that there are some monogamous homosexuals who can love each other the way loving straight couples can - I don't believe that all homosexuals are only in same-sex relationships for lust.
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ELAN

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:56 am

Not to criticize anyone here who disagrees, but I find 'swinging' to be childish and useless anyway.

Not to mention it will most likely leave a lot of regret for a person later in life.
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:13 am

Anyone who is pro-swinging deserves all the criticism they may get and then some. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:58 am

But I still like swinging in the park,, even though I'm grown up... its still funnnn
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:08 am

therockismighty wrote:
But I still like swinging in the park,, even though I'm grown up... its still funnnn
ZOMG! I DO TOOO!!! We should hook up and do some swinging in the park together!! Twisted Evil
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The Last Firstborn

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:49 am

I like swinging in my backyard. Razz
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:43 pm

LastFirstborn wrote:
Evil = Malicious actions that are harmful to others.

Homosexuals loving each other ≠ evil.

That's a shallow definition of evil. I would say that evil is not just what you do that's harmful, but also failure to do something you ought, such as not looking out for others, which stems out of a failure to love God above all else. This seems to me to be what Jesus was teaching.

Regardless, homosexuals loving each other is not evil, that's true. The problem is they are not loving each other on God's terms, which means this thing called homosexuality which God rules against is not really love at all. Love would look like what David and Jonathan had, which despite what some 'queer theologians' who try to twist the text to justify their sin think, is not about a gay relationship. It's fine for two or more guys or gals to have a warm and affectionate relationship - I do with my brother; it's not OK for them to have a sexual relationship. That's perverted and possibly is physically harmful to others.

As for swingers... it seems that everyone here instinctively agrees that's wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:51 pm

BOXXYBABEEBROOTAL wrote:
therockismighty wrote:
But I still like swinging in the park,, even though I'm grown up... its still funnnn
ZOMG! I DO TOOO!!! We should hook up and do some swinging in the park together!! Twisted Evil

Sure anytime, the park near my house has 3 swings in a row, jojo can come too! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:48 pm

wiremu.white wrote:
Matt wrote:
Homosexuals are (most of the time) not really believers, so the God-part isn't in effect.
I'm sure lots of gay people truly love their partners

How can you truly love someone when you're sinning both with - and ultimately against - them and against God, if both sin and true love are defined on Jesus' terms in the first place? It's not loving to defile a person. It's not loving to sin with them. Sin is by definition unloving towards God and your neighbour.

Same idea applies to 'swinging': God says no, because God is good and loving but 'swinging' or 'homosexuality' are not. They are perverted.

Regardless, if the God-part isn't in effect then a person has the same profound problem as the Christ killing Pharisees did: an evil heart. We all start life with one; some are born-again.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. But, desipte all humans apparently knowing deep inside about God, most aren't born again, as you said. So they still have that "evil heat", as you said. However, many don't know Christ like we do, and therefore don't realize that they are sinning even if they are in a monogamous homosexual marriage (assuming that even that is sinful). So yeah, it is unloving towards God, but some still have the ability to love each other with that love between two people that heterosexual couples can have (and obviously many non-Christian heterosexuals can also love each other in that "romantic" and "deep commitment"-marriage way). Unloving to God; yes, if sin, any sin. But loving their spouse without it being based on Eros, that is possible whether they are saved or not, heterosexual or not. Clearly, it isn't true that all homosexuals only love each other in a Eros sense. Many seem to, but some definitely have that "true love" that could be healthy, could be not sin, if straight (again, on the assumption that all homosexuality is sin).

Two different kinds of love here. Love towards God, and that love that we can have towards our significant other. Clearly some are able to have the latter without the former, saved or not, gay or not. (not saying that makes homosexuality not sin, but you get what I mean). People were confusing what you were saying because they were talking about the second love, which can be World-based (without God in the picture), while you were talking about God's will about love (love God, love others, etc), which obviously most non-saved people won't get and therefore not feel conviction for. I get what you mean about saying that 'homosexual's true love for each other isn't really love at all, since it is sin'. But for them and from the human-world perspective, it still is true love. Most aren't saved, so they won't get that it isn't love on God's terms.

I could have made this post a lot shorter, but whatever Razz.
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wiremu.white

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:23 pm

Exquisite Corpse wrote:
wiremu.white wrote:
Matt wrote:
Homosexuals are (most of the time) not really believers, so the God-part isn't in effect.
I'm sure lots of gay people truly love their partners

How can you truly love someone when you're sinning both with - and ultimately against - them and against God, if both sin and true love are defined on Jesus' terms in the first place? It's not loving to defile a person. It's not loving to sin with them. Sin is by definition unloving towards God and your neighbour.

Same idea applies to 'swinging': God says no, because God is good and loving but 'swinging' or 'homosexuality' are not. They are perverted.

Regardless, if the God-part isn't in effect then a person has the same profound problem as the Christ killing Pharisees did: an evil heart. We all start life with one; some are born-again.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. But, desipte all humans apparently knowing deep inside about God, most aren't born again, as you said. So they still have that "evil heat", as you said. However, many don't know Christ like we do, and therefore don't realize that they are sinning even if they are in a monogamous homosexual marriage (assuming that even that is sinful). So yeah, it is unloving towards God, but some still have the ability to love each other with that love between two people that heterosexual couples can have (and obviously many non-Christian heterosexuals can also love each other in that "romantic" and "deep commitment"-marriage way). Unloving to God; yes, if sin, any sin. But loving their spouse without it being based on Eros, that is possible whether they are saved or not, heterosexual or not. Clearly, it isn't true that all homosexuals only love each other in a Eros sense. Many seem to, but some definitely have that "true love" that could be healthy, could be not sin, if straight (again, on the assumption that all homosexuality is sin).

Two different kinds of love here. Love towards God, and that love that we can have towards our significant other. Clearly some are able to have the latter without the former, saved or not, gay or not. (not saying that makes homosexuality not sin, but you get what I mean). People were confusing what you were saying because they were talking about the second love, which can be World-based (without God in the picture), while you were talking about God's will about love (love God, love others, etc), which obviously most non-saved people won't get and therefore not feel conviction for. I get what you mean about saying that 'homosexual's true love for each other isn't really love at all, since it is sin'. But for them and from the human-world perspective, it still is true love. Most aren't saved, so they won't get that it isn't love on God's terms.

I could have made this post a lot shorter, but whatever Razz.

In case you missed it, I'll repost what I stated earlier:

wiremu.white wrote:
... 'homosexuals' loving each other is not evil, that's true. The problem is they are not loving each other on God's terms, which means this thing called homosexuality which God rules against is not really love at all. Love would look like what David and Jonathan had, which despite what some 'queer theologians' who try to twist the text to justify their sin think, is not about a gay relationship. It's fine for two or more guys or gals to have a warm and affectionate relationship - I do with my brother; it's not OK for them to have a sexual relationship. That's perverted and possibly is physically harmful to others.

Jesus said the truth will set you free. That includes Biblical truths like gender roles in marriage - difficult for most to accept, impossible to apply in a same-sex setup or with 'swinging'. Jesus was also about headship and submission. May I recommend for those who love Jesus:

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:17 pm

Well, I am a woman and married, and I believe in headship and submission, as well as my gender roles. And yeah, these things, as well as the man representing Christ and the woman representing the Church, are also things that can "prove" why a homosexual marriage might make no sense in God's eyes.


Last edited by Exquisite Corpse on Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ELAN

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:22 pm

Exquisite Corpse wrote:
Well, I am a woman and married, and I believe in headship and submission, as well as my gender roles. And yeah, these things, as well as the man representing Christ and the woman representing the Church, are also things that can "prove" why homosexuality makes no sense

No, skeptics... I didn't make her type that.
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:23 pm

Haha Elan
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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:24 pm

This is getting a little off topic now, but it depends what type of "Love" we are talking about here. There are several different meanings for the same word.

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PostSubject: Re: Straight Swingers or Monogamous Homosexuals?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:25 pm

ELAN wrote:
Exquisite Corpse wrote:
Well, I am a woman and married, and I believe in headship and submission, as well as my gender roles. And yeah, these things, as well as the man representing Christ and the woman representing the Church, are also things that can "prove" why homosexuality makes no sense

No, skeptics... I didn't make her type that.

Sure you didn't Wink

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