OK, please, I am not trying to start a fight, but you need to at least be aware of some facts.

http://www.heathenholidays.com

Regards,

Bro. Winter

I knew I added this emoticon for a reason:

Hmmm, maybe post this on a board which is heathen?

yea yea yea, pagan holiday blah blah blah.... so the traditions of xmas might have been derived from some sort of pagan influence, but at the very least people's intentions aren't dealing with that sort of foundation anymore. There was a time when Christians didn't even celebrate Christ's birth, but we do now and we do it out of love and simply tradition. A tradition of presents, "materialism" and consumerism, maybe, but also out of joy, family, fellowship and thanksgiving, and this is the case with Christians and non-Christians alike.

Yeah, Christ is heathen, for the win

Christ was most likely born in September. December is when Christ may have been conceived in Mary, when the HS came upon her.

I didn't feel like reading all that. But I've always been taught that Christmas was when Jesus was born and that it is why we celebrate the birth of our savior. I dunno what is up with the Xmas tree and all the gift giving, but hey if it means family togetherness and gift exchanging and joy then sign me up.

I don't think Jesus was born in the winter time though...becuase those winters I hear are freakin cold... It also could be a trick by Satan, materialism instead of worship and forgetting when Christ was really born.

I don't think that Christmas or the other holidays are sinful or sacred. Christmas is just another day, and if you use it to celebrate Christ, awesome. If you use it to celebrate nicely packaged presents and a lot of food, awesome.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. *

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Bro Steve Winter
For Bible doctrine http://www.prime.org
For Christian music http://www.winterband.com
For Christian community http://www.OneLordJesus.com

Was this thread started by Father CHRISTmas or Steve Winter?

winterband wrote:

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. *

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Bro Steve

Last I looked, no one was worshiping a Christmas Tree.

They may or may not have pagan meaning, but the meaning of them now, are not the meaning of them then. We are do not use the Tree to stand in for a god or worship.

The Tree is a sign of the Everlasting Christ, since we use Evergreen trees. A sign of everlasting.

Gifts givings are given in the spirit of the wiseman who gave gifts to Christ.

The star on the tree reminds us of the star that lead the wisemen to Christ.

Almost everything we use for Christmas as its sumbolism taken from the birth narrative of Christ.

lord voldemort wrote:

winterband wrote:

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. *

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Bro Steve

Last I looked, no one was worshiping a Christmas Tree.

They may or may not have pagan meaning, but the meaning of them now, are not the meaning of them then. We are do not use the Tree to stand in for a god or worship.

The Tree is a sign of the Everlasting Christ, since we use Evergreen trees. A sign of everlasting.

Gifts givings are given in the spirit of the wiseman who gave gifts to Christ.

The star on the tree reminds us of the star that lead the wisemen to Christ.

Almost everything we use for Christmas as its sumbolism taken from the birth narrative of Christ.

Hey Voldemort! Now, although it has been such a long time since I've seen this, I think Bro. Winter is correct and wrong at the same time. The same applies to Voldemort as well. I guess I had been strictly looking at Christmas for a little bit from Winter's point of view and not so much from Voldemort's view.

The thing about holidays is, they may or may not have derived from paganism, but even so, I need to realize there are completely different thoughts and intentions for actions that actually have nothing to do with culture etc.

This is one of those Romans 14 kind of subjects I need to realize. One of my problems with Christianity in general today was how much it imitated Paganism or fused paganism with it, and as such I still view stuff like this in general as wrong under a certain light. But at the same time, it's not simply putting a tree on decorating, or buying gifts, but the reasonings for so and the heart/mind/soul.

A tree within itself being decorated has no sin, but if we worship it, it then becomes idolatry. That very verse Winter and Voldemort quoted did give me the sign that the way Christians do Christmas actually is Pagan and wrong, but at the same time, it's not the decorated tree that makes it sin, it's our mindset and heart.

The last problem for me is, I'm personally glad we get to celebrate and worship on the Christmas Holidays, but at the same time, where is the rest of the year? One thing I love and hate about Christmas is in general, this is the time where most lose their ego and start coming together as a community/family, we take our focus off of theology and doctrines and just start going to Christ. Thing is, once January of next year kicks off, Christ then goes to the garbage can, until the next Christian holiday of Easter (which also does have Pagan origins).

So, just because of it's origins and just because people see the holiday differently, doesn't exactly make the holiday or celebration within itself wrong. I've been taught a few times that Halloween is the "Devil's Holiday", yet I see nothing wrong nor anything to condemn about guys wearing a mask or corpsepaint (otherwise pro wrestling would be wrong/immoral) and taking that costume going around asking for candy or watching scary movies. So, where I may be okay for Halloween, I know not everyone is okay with it. My problem with everything stems from if one says their view is the only view that is acceptable, and everybody else is wrong no matter what. For that, I think the key is to not have pride in what you believe, but at the same time, learn and grow from what is happening/going on. Under this, I am glad that Winter is showing us our origins of celebrating Christmas, but at the same time, we need to realize that decorating a tree isn't exclusive to paganism nor is it exclusive to worshipping a pagan god. I didn't realize the Christian definition of the tree till Voldemort posted it, so under what Voldemort said, I don't view it as wrong to put up and decorate a tree.

I know it's been so long since I came here, but I hope I gave a great post for my return.

Personally, I have no feelings on Christmas. I view it simply as a good time to get with family. Share gifts and such.

But Protestantism has done a major disservice to Christianity and that it is they have removed almost all symbolism of Christ. Where all that is left is the preaching, but even that today is Christless.

Protestantism has removed all symbols of Christ, that Protestants do not have anything that really remind them to focus on Christ. When the pastor removes Christ from his preaching and the Church removes Christ from the symbols and then makes issues over it.

Where is Christ in the Church?

Even though these maybe pagan, they are Christ symbols, symbols to remind us of Christ and what he did.

Take Communion for example. We have removed the bread and wine that represent the body of Christ and replaced them with grape juice and crackers. Then we get all hot headed over people drinking.

lord voldemort wrote:

Personally, I have no feelings on Christmas. I view it simply as a good time to get with family. Share gifts and such.

But Protestantism has done a major disservice to Christianity and that it is they have removed almost all symbolism of Christ. Where all that is left is the preaching, but even that today is Christless.

Protestantism has removed all symbols of Christ, that Protestants do not have anything that really remind them to focus on Christ. When the pastor removes Christ from his preaching and the Church removes Christ from the symbols and then makes issues over it.

Where is Christ in the Church?

Even though these maybe pagan, they are Christ symbols, symbols to remind us of Christ and what he did.

Take Communion for example. We have removed the bread and wine that represent the body of Christ and replaced them with grape juice and crackers. Then we get all hot headed over people drinking.

I agree with this. Also, you make a valid and great point on Communion. I still believe it should be viewed as the way the Scriptures put it and not as Catholicism/some Orthodox or Protestants view it. Communion in the day was a meal, and I still feel this should still be viewed as a meal, not juice and crackers. I still believe that communion was a full fledged feast/meal for a reason. This does go back with my last post, as I see that the grape juice/cracker idea was Pagan in origins as well. It doesn't mean it's Pagan when Christians do it, but for me, like with Christmas, I feel that there is something lost and spiritually lost as well when it's done in the style of Pagans, albeit it may not be sin.

With your great points, I still feel Hemlock was a fool for banning you from firestream. Glad that I still get to see your posts here at least!

This is the first mention in the bible as to when Bread and Wine is used.

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

Christ uses the same thing.

I agree it should be a feast or meal.

1Cor 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

1Cor 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

1Cor 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1Cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Bro. Winter

That would seem to fit, but you are not putting it into context of the Church.

The church of Corinth was a corrupted Church. What Paul is telling them, do not eat the Lord Supper there because the acts of what is going on and what they are doing is shaming the Lord.

It is not a prohibition of the Lord Supper as a feast/meal. Paul is telling them not to participate in it. This is the church that allowed a man to sleep with his step mother.

Corinth was a corrupt city, so much so that there was a saying: "You are a Corinthian", which meant you are corrupt. This city was far beyond what the Roman Empire considered to be normal.

Let me put the rest of your verses in context:

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
1Co 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
1Co 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
1Co 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
1Co 11:34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

They would eat the Lord Supper as their own meal, not as a remembrance of Christ. They were very devisive among themselves. They disrespected the meal and Christ.

This is not telling them that they could not, as you seem to be doing.

lord voldemort wrote:

Personally, I have no feelings on Christmas. I view it simply as a good time to get with family. Share gifts and such.

But Protestantism has done a major disservice to Christianity and that it is they have removed almost all symbolism of Christ. Where all that is left is the preaching, but even that today is Christless.

Protestantism has removed all symbols of Christ, that Protestants do not have anything that really remind them to focus on Christ. When the pastor removes Christ from his preaching and the Church removes Christ from the symbols and then makes issues over it.

Where is Christ in the Church?

Even though these maybe pagan, they are Christ symbols, symbols to remind us of Christ and what he did.

Take Communion for example. We have removed the bread and wine that represent the body of Christ and replaced them with grape juice and crackers. Then we get all hot headed over people drinking.

Can you say some Protestants do these things?

I am a protestant and we never remove Christ from anything that is preached in Church to the Church, who are His hands and His feet.

At Christmas the protestant Churches I have belonged to put all the focus on Christ for the service... it is a special and thankful time... its one day that has a bit more emphasis but in general this is how we should be 24/7.

For communion at my church we use un leaven bread and have a goblet of grape juice as some people have issues with alcohol and we wish to respect these people.


Christ is evident in the fruit of His people, thus that is how you judge the evidence of Christ in a church and the people that attend.

I appreciate your opinion and want to see Christ at the forefront, how much time do you espouse this when not on the internet?.

Its easy to have a go at this brand of faith, but seriously a lot of good has been done despite some bad... not all are removing Christ, a lot are screaming out to other believers to get back into line with Scripture and stop spouting these feel good messages and preach the Gospel as it is.

I am being general, just because it is easier than name each one that does not. But it is also going on my experience and what others have told me. This is in now way meant to be exclusive to all protestants.

But a general move that many have taken.

I try to espouse this as much as possible. This is my foremost struggle, knowing the truth and living it.

I understand that grape juice. But when one rails against alcohol as unbiblical. I have heard some actually say that Christ did not drink Wine, but Grape juice. Because for Christ to drink wine, would be a sin.

Wine is a major part of symbolism of the body of Christ and the symbolism that God uses throughout the OT and NT.

I know, I have no problem drinking wine myself... my pastors adore the stuff... but out of respect to recovering alcoholics etc I guess thats why we don't have it plus we have young children who would struggle to even drink it... and if we are prompted to have wine instead, pretty sure we will change it in a snap of the fingers. Might discuss this with the pastors anyway.

General is cool, using a couple words like some or seems to be too many Protestants... would suffice.

yeah. We live in a society that has not controlled the wine problem, so it has become a problem.

Some or seem seem like some good words :p

Most of our current holidays (at least American, I can't account for all holidays everywhere) stem from ancient, pagan celebrations. It's from ancient times that we have easter eggs and bunnies (didn't you ever wonder why a bunny has all those eggs??) christmas trees, mistletoe, halloween (kinda obvious), even things like fireworks and bonfires.
Culture is a process of the new and the old blending. A people's celebratory traditions change as they convert to Christianity, or as some of them do, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying a celebration with a new meaning to it.
If there is 'nothing new under the sun' per Ecclesiastes, it's really the only option we have anyway

There are problems associated with making a lie, regardless of how much one enjoys doing so.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

See also http://www.heathenholidays.com

Bro Steve Winter
For Christian community http://www.OneLordJesus.com

Hopefully you celebrate the Advent season.

I personally see no problem with the Christianization of pagan holidays and practices.

Unblack metal, anyone?

olias wrote:

I personally see no problem with the Christianization of pagan holidays and practices.

Unblack metal, anyone?

Heck, even Christian metal.